Talk:Iolanthe

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Contents 1 Claims re: Iolanthe's Popularity Among G&S Fans and Balance 2 Plot summary 3 Roles 4 Act II 5 Perola 6 Act I Finale 7 Soon as we may 8 Queen of the Night?

[edit] Claims re: Iolanthe's Popularity Among G&S Fans and Balance

I changed the last sentence of the intro to weaken the claims made, so I don't think it needs a citation any more. It is a fact that many "G&S fans" (as opposed to the theatregoing public, who are most familiar with the "big 3") think Iolanthe is the best G&S work. This is confirmed by what I would call "mountains of anecdotal evidence" and also by some "polls" taken over the years on Savoynet, the international G&S discussion list (admittedly not a scientifically selected sample of G&S fans). Also, I don't know of anyone who *doesn't* like Iolanthe. It's in everyone's top several, at least. It is just a well-written show. The dialogue and music are consistently engaging, without any "slow" parts of the show. BTW, Iolanthe is not MY favorite (I like Yeomen and Pirates best), and of course it could be said of some of the others that "many G&S fans" like it the best. I think, also, that if you examine the libretto and the score of Iolanthe, as compared with the lib. and scores of the other G&S operas, you will not see a better balanced work, in terms of balance between the male and female characters, the music and the dialogue, the slow and fast numbers, the comic vs. romantic scenes, the pacing of the plot, etc. Unlike say, Utopia, no character gets left behind, no subplot fails to get resolved, and no stone is left unturned by Sir Arthur in his use of musical motifs and clever orchestration to illustrate the meaning of a song. So, to wrap up this longwinded justification, just as we can say that The Mikado, Pinafore and Pirates are "very popular", I think it is fair and true to say that "many G&S fans" find Iolanthe the best and the best balanced G&S show. --Ssilvers 19:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not adding a "cite needed" back into the article, but I think the statement is still problematic. There are several G&S operas that some significant subset of the G&S fan base would described as "best" or "best balanced." So, why say it about Iolanthe only? Marc Shepherd 12:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Iolanthe is the favorite of more "G&S fans" than any other. I think the reason for this is its consistently engaging music and dialogue, good storytelling and pacing, and I understand why so many G&S fans rank it first. Also, I think that there are very few G&S fans who "dislike" Iolanthe, whereas there are a lot who say "I don't like Mikado" or "I don't like Patience", or "Yeomen is full of holes", etc. for the same reasons. BTW I am defining "G&S fans" as people who have seen more than just a couple of G&S shows and who intend to explore (or have explored) more G&S shows -- that is, who recognize G&S as something different from any other musical or opera and have a reason for having a "favorite". Also, my reasoning above as to why it is the best "balanced" is, I think, more than just taste -- I think that there is objective analysis in there (somewhere). I could go show by show and tell you why I think the others are not as well balanced (although Mikado is a very well balanced show), but I think that the claims now made in the article are very mild and fair to state. If anyone has a serious disagreement with the claims, I will yield to a reasonable argument. --Ssilvers 23:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plot summary

I just did a fairly major re-write on the plot summary. Reading it over, I realized that the summary contained a number of statements that are not supported in the libretto (though they may have applied to a production that the writer was familiar with) and other descriptions that did not follow (or confused) the order of the libretto. --Ssilvers 01:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's far better now. Marc Shepherd 12:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roles

I changed Strephon, under "roles" from "bass-baritone" to "baritone". Yes, I know Richard Temple was a bass, but anyone who has sung Strephon knows that Strephon is a baritone. It has high F's (and an optional G) and lots of fairly lyric singing. Yes, it has a low G, but it is not a difficult one, and the tessitura of the role lies right in the middle of the baritone range. I think it is misleading to label it "bass-baritone". Even if Sullivan did so, remember that the lower-sitting "FYFW" has been removed from the role.

Sam Silvers 20 April 2006.

The second paragraph says:

Iolanthe was advertised as the world's first fairy-tale opera, and was an occasion for what must have seemed a truly magical event in 1882. .... It was true enchantment for the audiences....

There is no source for the claim that it was the "world's first fairy-tale opera," or that it "...was true enchantment for the audiences." Marc Shepherd 17:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting if we could have chapter and verse for assertion that Fairy Queen's music in Iolanthe makes reference to The Magic Flute. I thought I knew both works well, but blest if I can spot any references from the later to the earlier work. (Regards, Tim.)

I've never heard that the FQ's music makes reference to The Magic Flute. I know The Magic Flute pretty well, and I can see no similarity. Marc Shepherd 17:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Marc. My references compare Iolanthe to Wagner and other composers, but never to Mozart. I will correct if no one else does.--Gary 20:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The Fairy Queen's original costume costume constituted a good-natured visual reference to the costumes of the Walkyries in Wagner's tetralogy, The Nibelung's Ring, which had been given its first London performance in May 1882 -- see Loewenberg's Annals of Opera, sub 1876. The Queen's costume and Iolanthe's rise from the waters at the beginning of Iolanthe are about the only (and very, very distant) traces of "Wagner" in the work, whose musical idiom is quite as un-Wagnerian as it is un-Mozartian.

[edit] Act II

Iolanthe supposedly revealed herself to the L.C. to save him from "bigamy", but bigamy is marrying two wives. What's a child marrying a parent? (besides illegal/etc.) Peter T.S. 03:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Comes under incest. However, Phyllis isn't his daughter, Strephon's his son. Unless you're saying Strephon's a transexual fairy the L.C. wants to marry... Adam Cuerden 05:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I completely rewrote this -- see plot summary above. The idea that Iolanthe does what she does to save the L.C. was just wrong. He does what he does, because, to paraphrase the libretto, a father would not stand in the way of his son's happiness. --Ssilvers 00:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perola

Are you SURE that's why Gilbert changed the name? To keep things secret? I was under the impression it was something to do with conflicts with Tchaikovsky's opera of the same name. Adam Cuerden 05:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The main article's comment is definitely wrong. I just don't have time at the moment to correct it. Marc Shepherd 17:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

There is some evidence, at least online, that it was mostly to frustrate American libretto pirates, after bad previous experiences. I have documented it and taken off the disputed flag.--Gary 21:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect, unfortunately, but I'll let it stand till I have a chance to look up the source and post a revision. Marc Shepherd 22:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. May be an urban legend sort of thing that just grew until people cite it as fact. Interested in knowing the truth.--Gary 22:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "Perola" does not musically fit where the fairies sing "Iolanthe" early in Act I. However, it was my understanding that that was sung, in rehearsal, as "Oh Perola". I suggest deleting the part about how it doesn't fit--after all, it was clearly sung in the early part of rehearsals as "Perola", fit or no fit.--Gary 22:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reworded it for clarity. There is actually more information known, but it doesn't meet Wikipedia's verifiability rules. In a letter to his assistant, Cellier, written over two days from October 29-31, 1882, Sullivan wrote:

The name Perola was originally “Iolanthe” which had 4 liquid syllables. So we had to put in an “O” and “Ah” or a “Come” before Perola.

Then, in a Postscript, Sullivan says:

The name will be definitely I hope “Iolanthe”. This will remove all the “Come Perolas” &c from No 3.

This letter now resides in a museum, but no citable source has published it, so I can't put it in the main article. I think the point of Tillett et al (the source I can cite) is that it is musically obvious that Sullivan had to have written with "Iolanthe" in mind from the start. The letter quoted above indeed confirms that they are correct.

I suspect the sources that assure you "Perola" was sung in rehearsal are the same sources that assure you (incorrectly) that the name wasn't changed to Iolanthe until the eve of the premiere. Marc Shepherd 09:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Good enough.--Gary 11:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It's laughable that Tchaikovsky's Iolanta should enter into this discussion of the opera's name: Iolanta was given its first performance only in 1892. See Grove's New Dictionary of Opera sub Iolanta.

The only comment the article makes is to note that the similarly-named Tchaikovsky opera exists. I don't see what's laughable about that observation. Marc Shepherd 12:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Act I Finale

Again, I find myself with the difficult task of trying to divide an Act I finale into sections. Iolanthe's Act I Finale is so complicated that I've just put a waiver saying that it has other parts too and let it stand with a few of the sections that have an obvious first line to quote - this may not be ideal. In fact, it isn't. Help! Adam Cuerden 12:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you've done fine, and I don't think a disclaimer is needed. Marc Shepherd 13:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

By the by, one thing: Should the title be "Young Strephon is the kind of lout", the title I think of that section as, or "With Strephon as your foe, no doubt", which I suspect women think of it as? Adam Cuerden 14:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I think "lout" is the usual title of this section and gives some flavor of what's going on in the section. One could make a case for just saying "Young Strephon", because both men and women sing this, but I think the lout alternative is more descriptive. --Ssilvers 17:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The track listing on the D'Oyly recording lists the title of the track as "With Strephon for your foe", for the record. (cf. Amazon) vogon 23:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Arr, tricky, then. Savoynet poll, perhaps? If the name is divided roughly on gender lines, it's probably worth giving both names. Adam Cuerden 13:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's a poll issue. You need to look at the authoritative sources before making this sort of change. A track listing on a particular recording is not much evidence. --Ssilvers 16:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the track listing of a recording is a more reliable source than a Savoynet poll. This particular section simply doesn't have a "standard" name, probably because multiple texts are being sung at once. I would go with "With Strephon for your foe." Marc Shepherd 16:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Have added a footnote, though perhaps I should have used the <ref> to make it less obvious. It's probably unnecessary. By the way, I may be wrong, but I seem to recall the Schirmer score has the fairies singing about how awful Strephon is in, at the least, parts of this song. Schirmer's Iolanthe... is probably best avoided. Adam Cuerden 18:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think your recollection is right. Also, Schirmer has some variations from the authentic text in the Act I finale, particlualry the "P-A-R liament" and "You GO sky high", but these are fairly well known (and easy to mark in one's score). Plus, Schirmer contains the dialogue, which Chappell does not. In rehearsal, the convenience of having a score with dialogue should not be underestimated. In Buxton, the Brits were constantly trying to juggle two books. --Ssilvers 19:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soon as we may

Is it worth mentioning this is a reprise of "If you go in" or is this pointless? I have added such mentions to, for instance, Princess Ida, so if this is undesirable, I'd like to know before I spread it further. Adam Cuerden 15:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with your noting that, since it's true an may be helpful to someone. --Ssilvers 16:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I would not mention it. There are lots of reprises in G&S, and not just in finales. We are listing musical numbers, not analyzing them. The proposed standard for the opera articles has a heading for "Musical Elements" where the musical structure of each work can be described. It has yet to be populated for any opera, because we're still working on more basic stuff.Marc Shepherd 16:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, however many of these reprises are obvious. A reasonable person will realise "For he's going to marry Yum-Yum" and "For he's gone and married Yum-Yum" as the same song, and certainly "Now to the banquet we press" and "Now to the banquet we press" are easily identifiable as the same number, if the subsections are correctly listed. However, in a few rare cases (I may miss some): Hail Poetry / Hail noblemen (reprise cut before first night); "If Saphhir I choose to marry" / "After much debate internal"; "If you go in" / "Soon as we may"; "Expressive glances" / "With joy abiding", and, arguably "Once more gondoleiri ... So goodbye cachucha", the fact of similarity is obscured by a change in the first line, (usually with less change later). The cases are rare enough that they're worth mentioning. Adam Cuerden 17:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, FWIW, I think we're going the wrong direction when we bulk-up the lists of roles and musical numbers with footnotes and explanations. These matters are better described in other sections. Marc Shepherd 19:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree in general, but think that short notes like "see (section)", or footnotes as preparation for having a new section, like is happening in Mikado with the Pish-Tush "So please you sir" note is fine. A short note clarifying that two songs have the same tune would be awkward to work into any section but the list of songs, so should be there, unless you can propose a better place. Adam Cuerden 20:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

What if we just add (reprise of x)? Isn't this standard in theatre programs that give a list of numbers? If you say this, I don't think you need any more explanation. --Ssilvers 20:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

*shrug* That's what I had before. Adam Cuerden 20:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queen of the Night?

Can anybody discern a reference to either of the Queen of the Night's arias in any of the Fairy Queen's music? Somebody seems to think so - see The Magic Flute#Trivia. I've stuck a "citation needed" there, but thought I'd ask here before deleting it out of hand. --GuillaumeTell 11:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I know I have read that either the character or the music was supposed to evoke Mozart's, but I've never seen it myself. I think at one time there was such a reference in this article, but the concensus was to remove it. Check the history. I'll check my G&S books when I get a chance.--Wehwalt 13:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I checked the history, and this "fact" appeared in the article on 13 November 2005 and was removed on 4 April 2006 (Discussion here). Glad to see that my own impression that there is no Mozart reference is backed up by others. I'll eliminate it from the Flute article and put an explanation on its talk page. --GuillaumeTell 13:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)