Talk:Iroquois
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Note that the term "Native American" doesn't apply to Native
in Canada (such as the "Iroquois"). vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv141.110.99.50 22:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)I've used "First Nations," which applies to both American and Canadian Aboriginals and is the name they often, (though not always), prefer, particularly in Canada.
Many of the First Nations call themselves by names other than the names we know. The use of the term "Iroquois," applied to the Haudenosaunee, is a case in point. The term was originally used by the Huron (Wendat) as an insult. The French (who were also enemies of the Haudenosaunee) picked up the term. Since it was an insult, rather than the name they called themselves, it is worth a paragraph IMHO. However, there are many cases where the name commonly used by English-speakers is not the one the people themselves use. It might be nice if we could come up with a convention for handling this. For the time being, I have simply put the alternative name in brackets. I would welcome any thoughts on how best to handle this. Sunray 21:46, 2003 Dec 8 (UTC)
I beg to differ. "First Nations" is never used to refer to American Native Americans. When I read that, I came here to ask if it should be changed, because, to me, it is specifically Canada-related. RickK 04:21, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. "First Nations" is occasionally used in the United States. See the Wikipedia article about "First Nations."
There are plenty of Iroquois in the US too. -- Decumanus 04:25, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I am completely aware of that. That's why I advocate changing First Nations to Native Americans. RickK 04:26, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I was agreeing you, not disputing you. Actually the term doesn't matter to me. The Iroquois I know happen call themselves "Indians", for what it's worth. This article is somewhat defective, however, in that "Iroquois" is certainly not synonomous with "Iroquois Confederacy", which was a specific political movement about Iroquois-speaking peoples. -- Decumanus 04:31, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- although you can argue that we say "France" the "French" are the same, so maybe it's appropriate to equate the two.
Decumanus, I am OK with most of your edit, but can't understand why you changed "upstate" to "western" New York. The Mohawk nation most definitely occupied eastern New York (the Hudson and Mohawk valleys), so "upstate" is therefore the more accurate term. Much of the territory occupied would be also described "central" NY; only the Senecas being truly in the western portion of the present state. Pollinator 22:45, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)
- I'm chuckling a little. I live in Staten Island, so it's all "western New York" to me. Just perception, really. Your wording is defintely more accurate.:) -- Decumanus 23:21, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Haudenosaunee
I have added Haudenosaunee as the name for the Confederacy. I had always heard them as synonyms, as opposed to the definition of Haudenosaunee given on WP. Do these need to be merged?
Also, shouldn't this article be at Iroquois Confederacy? - BanyanTree 21:17, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Just merged it in. The Haudenosaunee article was only a facsimile of a more in depth paragraph in this entry. --Heah 07:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Leaving this article titled "Iroquois" is inappropriate. As noted in the article, the term Iroquois is an insulting name applied by the league's long-time enemies, the French and Wyandotts. The people call themselves Haudenosaunee. This is tantamount to titling an article on Italians "Guineas", or one on Poles "Pollacks". While I understand that Iroquois is the more commonly known name, all searches of either term lead to this article. Why use an ethnic slur as the title and put the correct name in parentheses?
- I agree with this; it's actually the first thing I thought of when I visited this article. It seems to be becoming more common in central New York. The Syracuse Post-Standard recently had a special feature article on the Onondaga Nation where they made exclusive use of Haudenosaunee (with an explanation of it's preference to "Iroquois".) While it may be historically congruent, it's culturally insensitive. Jestermonkey 06:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Invasion/Colonization
I changed this text: In 1720 the Tuscarora fled north from the European invasion of North Carolina and petitioned to become the Sixth Nation.
to this: In 1720 the Tuscarora fled north from the European colonization of North Carolina and petitioned to become the Sixth Nation.
The term "invasion" in this instance is POV, and less accurate than the term "colonization" --Henrybaker 06:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Well the Tuscarora already lived there and considered it their land collectively, so do you suppose they viewed a new arrival who arbitrarily claimed it as their own as a coloniser or as an invader? And placed in that same situation what would you call the new arrival? LamontCranston 04:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see invasion as any more or less POV than colonization. While invasion implies violence or militarism and colonisation implies peaceful "moving in," the fact is that there was a mixture of both. There were explorers, settlers who build homes and planted crops, settlers who actively went out into areas and shot people, settlers whose only contact with natives was trade, actual armies sometimes, and ultimately the Tuscarora had to "flee"-- fleeing sounds like something you do when there's danger, isn't it? So if invasion is POV, then so is fled, and if we keep circle-dancing this we might get "In 1720 the Tuscarora decided to move from North Carolina to New York because they didn't want to live with Europeans" which is pretty funny. Just a thought 82.93.133.130 12:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] material copied without attribution
This article appears to be a wholesale copy of material from the site www.sixnations.org
If used with permission, that should be noted. In any event, there should be proper attribution.
It is unlikely that the people described in the article will appreciate the recent change that recharacterizes an invasion of Tuscarora territory as a "colonization"
[edit] Rome and the Druids among other tangents
This had been recently added to the article. At the least, the writing style is unencylopedic. And I doubt that the mention of Rome and Druids is very pertinent here. Please feel free to reincorporate what is of value here back into the article. older≠wiser 02:14, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
There exists another, perhaps more compelling, version explaining the origin of the word "Iroquois"; as the French combination of two distinct In considering what may or may not have been insults of the past; we as readers/interpreters of a modern view must consider that the same alleged insults may actually have been statements expressing fear, in the sense of an attempt to degrade via misrepresentation the lives and ways of an entire people. This kind of slander is known to have been used by ancient Rome. Also Ancient Rome was accustomed to completely ignoring the views of local authorities with whom they had had agreements or relationships. See the link regarding Boadicea as a case in point: http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/England/Boadicea.html Please see comments regarding Roman propaganda and the prescript or rule of Augustus forbiding the practice of Druidic rituals (See Druid). Such views would not have been supported or used had they not been effective in affecting how other Romans would see the Druids (or whoever else the propaganda was directed against) and determinedly undermine how Romans interacted with Druids or those peoples who followed the Druid ways. Other ancient events where propaganda can be said to have played a role in events are the Great Fire of Rome and the Destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria (See Library_of_Alexandria#Destruction_of_the_Great_Library). The Druids, and perhaps many other non-Roman nations in fact provided a firm, consistent and informed resistence against Rome. The participants and writers developing the nascent US government addressed and compared the Haudenosaunee and their ways to a state of achievement in administrative self-governance which Rome itself never reached and which they hoped the US would aspire to and achieve. It is in especially in this light that the slander created by the Hurons must be taken into context for what it may in fact be; a grudging expression of both fear and repect, or perhaps even praise for an old and dangerous enemy. Just as Ancient Rome used propaganda against those who resisted it; which in time was later also used by Roman Christians against Pagans (refer to aforementioned references regarding the Great Library). There may be a different kind of problem with the link identified as the official website of the Haudenosaunee. The link known as: http://sixnations.buffnet.net/ The website may have a presence or support problem or other difficulty. I have sent emails to each contact provided on that site where it is listed for the purposes of making contact with someone and all have bounced back to me. My email software clearly lists that of the email addresses provided at the website either the addresses are not "valid" OR the "users are unknown". In any case, a different and yet useful reference in learning about the Haudenosaunee exists here: http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/index.html The Iroquois nations' political union and democratic government has been credited as one of the influences on the United States Constitution. See Figure 31 at this link: http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/EoL/chp8.html#fig31
[edit] Druids, Romans and relationship to the Iroquois confederacy
I read the prior critique and considered it useful. If I were writing a tome regarding the history of propaganda or slander as a political tool of control, then I might be excused for the digressions in the areas I made. However, my intent in weaving my comments here were more narrow and as such I cut out the other references because they are not central to my original intent of providing a different researched view of the origin of the word Iroquois.
[edit] Regarding the Official Iroquios Confederacy website
It should be noted somewhere by others the following:
There may be a problem with the link identified as the official website of the Haudenosaunee. The link known as:
http://sixnations.buffnet.net/
The website may have a presence or support problem or other difficulty. I have sent emails to each contact provided on that site where it is listed for the purposes of making contact with someone and all have bounced back to me. My email software clearly lists that of the email addresses provided at the website either the addresses are not "valid" OR the "users are unknown".
Sincerely, Aguilarojo
[edit] Regarding the Official Iroquois Confederacy website
It should be noted somewhere by others the following:
There may be a problem with the link identified as the official website of the Haudenosaunee. The link known as:
http://sixnations.buffnet.net/
The website may have a presence or support problem or other difficulty. I have sent emails to each contact provided on that site where it is listed for the purposes of making contact with someone and all have bounced back to me. My email software clearly lists that of the email addresses provided at the website either the addresses are not "valid" OR the "users are unknown".
Sincerely, Aguilarojo
i looking for a flag of Ioquois please contact me at : crackwindobe@voila.fr
[edit] Call for Peer Review
I submitted Economics of the Iroquois for peer review. Please take a look over it and make suggestions.--Bkwillwm 20:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Passports
I added a short edit based on reading a passage in a news story.
As Frichner travels the world, she uses an unusual passport. Appointed as a delegate of the Haudenosaunee to the United Nations Subcommittee on Human Rights, Frichner travels with a passport issued by Haudenosaunee, Six Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy. 'It is not easy to travel on. Wherever I go, I make sure I have a visa to travel to that nation.' Frichner recently went to South Africa to the World Conference on Racism sponsored by the United Nations Human Rights Commission
SchmuckyTheCat 20:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Feedback from Historian
The Wikipedia Help mailing list has received the following e-mail from a reader, a history graduate at the University of Pennsylvania:
"The United States Constitution was partly modelled on the Iroquois League Constitution."
This is presented as a statement of fact, which is highly questionable.
Question 1: Who "modelled" the US Constitution on the Iroquois League Constitution?
Question 2: Further, WHAT specifically was modelled into the U.S. Constitution from the Iroquois?
If "The Confederacy was based, at the time of the arrival of the Europeans, in what is now upstate New York, as well as parts of Pennsylvania, Ontario, and Quebec"[your quote], how is it that it got incorporated by James Madison, into the U.S. Constitution, who was from VIRGINIA?
Further, where did James Madison pick up his copy of the "wampum" from the Iroquois?
My conclusion is that whoever wrote this little article, was exercising in wishful thinking or "Revisionalism" of U.S. History.
What and where are their historical REFERENCES?
In my reply I will note the existing caveat about many historians not being convinced. However, the quote from the historian has a footnote but the footnote is not listed anywhere. Would it be possible to either provide the footnote or provide another quote from a reputable historian doubting the claims.
Thanks for all the work on the article. Capitalistroadster 06:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I think your history graduate didn't probe very much and needs to delve a little deeper. I browsed the six nations web site and found three relevant footnotes citing authoritative sources. (There may be more). Footnotes 18 and 19 show that the Iroquois were present at sessions of the Continental Congress. I couldn't say whether or not they were present at the Constitutional Convention, but that point is irrelevant. Some of the delegates there were almost certainly aware of the views of the Iroquois. Footnote 30 shows that Adams (and I suspect other founders) considered the Iroquois model as well as several other forms of government when they crafted ours. As for Franklin and Jefferson, he also might want to check out The Forgotten Founders, which includes a very rich list of primary and secondary sources. Vern Reisenleiter 23:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I have included a link and excerpt (hopefully not overlengthy) from what appears to be an excellent and balanced investigation of the dispute by Brian Cook. I feel this is a valuable resource about the controversy.
If the suggestion that whites helped draft the Haudensaunee constitution is considered racist, why is the suggestion that the Haudensaunee helped draft the U.S. constitution not considered likewise? Joescallan 13:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Deganawidah and Hiawatha
Deganawidah had the orenda,the inner spiritaul power of genius. Hiawatha was his speechmaker. The relationship riminds one of that of Moses and Aaron in the Old Testament ;it was Moses who conferred on the moutaintops with the Lord,while Aaron spoke to the people on behalf of his tonge-tied brother.
After Deganawidah had concieved the idea of the League of the Iroquios, Hiawatha paddled his white canoe from tribe to tribe, persuading them to consider the plan. The last to agree was the onondaga, whose chief, fierce Atatarho, insisted that his tribe must have chairmanship of the council. Finallt they hammered out the code that began, “I, Deganawidah, and the Confederate Chiefs, now uproot the tallest pine tree, and into the cavity thereby made we cast all weapons of war. Into the depths of the earth, deep down into thbe underearth currents of water flowing to unknown regions, we cast all weapons of strife. We bury them from sight and we plant again thge tree thus shall the Great Peace be established.”
[edit] Paragraph removed from article
I removed this from the article:
- "There exists another, perhaps more compelling, version explaining the origin of the word "Iroquois," as the French combination of two distinct terms used in the language of the Haudenosaunee. The participants and writers developing the nascent US government compared the Haudenosaunee and their ways to a state of achievement in administrative self-governance that Rome itself never reached, and an ideal that they hoped the US would aspire to and achieve."
The second half is denied by what was the immediately following paragraph. The first half may be useful - buit fails to tell us what the two terms were or what they meant or indeed who believes this alternate theory. Rmhermen 00:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Questionable Link
I'd say that the History and origins of the Five Nations of the Iroquois link is at best questionable. It's a poorly written article, on a site that's founded to oppose Iroquois interest in upstate New York.
I'll confess to knowing little about the topic myself, I really only know what I've read in a couple books, none of the scholarly works. This article clearly is not written in a scholarly format. Correction: Do'h what academic background? UCE is the group, not some college. The only source that I wouldn't question just from a glance on the basis of either date or originator is the National Geographic article. And that's not particularly crucial to his point.
At the end he admits to glaring contradictions in his article, but says that that doesn't change the veracity of his claims.
If there actually is such a controversy as this fellow presents, it should be included in the article, not just as a supplementary link. If not and the guy's just a crackpot, why do we have it in here?
I'd like to propose removing the link on two bases:
- 1. It reads like a poorly written rant.
- 2. The factual basis seems questionable.
- 3. It's not what people coming to this page would be looking for.
Oh, and I'm Quintucket, I'm having password difficulty with both Wikipedia and my email. It's been so long since I've had to type my passwords (which aren't the defaults on either) that I forgot.
But anywhen, sign me Quintucket, once I get my account functional again I'll confirm.
[edit] Material from article "Iroquoian languages"
The following paragraph was cut from the article Iroquoian languages since it only concerns the Iroquois culture (and the article is about a language family that includes the Huron and Cherokee). I think the material is superfluous to this article. Joseph B 00:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- The Iroquois were made up of a group or league of tribes that settled much of the land which presently spans from upstate New York to western Ohio. They were not nomadic but preferred to live in villages of many multi-roomed longhouses, built with saplings and bark or thatch. These longhouses could be up to 300 feet long. Villages were occupied for about 25-50 years. The Iroquois relied greatly on domestication of plant foods, but also supplemented their diet with hunting and gathering. Food such as corn, squash, beans, and other crops were cultivated, often on large fields where forest had been cut and burned for planting. It can be stated that they practiced a system of shifting horticulture. They spent much time on cultivation, harvesting, the preparatration of maize, and storing food. They stored their crops in various types of pottery jars. Pots were specialized by being much sturdier, constructed to withstand thermal stress, but were sensitive to mechanical stress. Iroquian pottery could also be used for a variety of reasons or uses. They were great for preparing maize. Excavated grains, pottery and other evidence suggests that a typical Indian meal consisted of soup made from different plants and animals, with corn as a staple in their diets.
[edit] Seven Generations
This article doesn't address the fact or fiction of the Iroquois belief that decisions made considered the impact on the next seven generations. Sounds mythical but it would be interesting if true. Google iroquois "seven generations" for more.Yeago 14:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
