Talk:Jean Grey

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Contents 1 Main Profile Picture 2 Queen? 3 Psychokineticist??? 4 DEAD ? 5 Endsong 6 Endsong(cont.) 7 Slight change in wording 8 Powers and Abilities 9 A bit unwieldy 10 Minor Edits 11 Jean's name is Jean 12 Jean SHB pic 13 Jean pic vote 14 confusing 15 X3: Jean's Death Speculation (SPOILER WARNING) 16 X3: Phoenix Speculation (SPOILER WARNING) 17 Image problems 18 Spoken version of Jean Grey 19 Cable 20 Costumes 21 Things that could be included in article 22 New jean Pic vote 23 Jean's Status 24 Merge 24.1 Survey 24.2 Discussions 25 Endsong 26 PLEASE!!! Could an expert or a fan create a new page focusing on the Dark Phoenix character???? 27 Endsong/Warsong 28 Timeline of jeans costumes? 29 Jean Grey / PHOENIX??!! 30 Overlinking 31 Pics (again) 32 Ultimate Pic too old!

[edit] Main Profile Picture

I'm not too fond of the current Jean pic..it doesn't represent her well I think these would be some nice choices

• Cover of New X-men 134

Or maybe the collage of her from Phoenix Endsong? Something better then her just standing there in her Gold Team Outfit

[edit] Queen?

I'm curious as to whether Jean Grey is an intentional anagram of Jane Grey, the first Queen of England. It probably shouldn't go it the article unless somebody finds confirmation, but is a interesting WikiJump nonetheless. --Jwanders 14:44, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Psychokineticist???

Is "psychokineticist" even a word (in reference to Category:Fictional psychokineticists)? Shouldn't it be "psychokinetic" (like it used to be "telekinetic" as in "Jean is a telekinetic" not a "telekineticist")?

[edit] DEAD ?

Ok I love the X-men comics, but come on Marvel give Jean a break, she has died to many time? but my real question is does anyone know if she is returning (with X3 being made it has to be soon)

• Dead god I hope not. Let her stay gone this time. Also, she doesn't have to come back becomes her film counterpart isn't dead.

• Actually, that is incorrect. She is officially in X3, turning out to be the Dark Phoenix, even turning bullets upon Magneto. I believe Famke is doing a FANTASTIC job of portraying her. Anyway, I think she should come back and just be back for like twenty years.

[edit] Endsong

Ok, the new edited section on Endsong is better in terms of length, but in terms of style is just as bad as the previous version. Can someone who's read the issues clean this up? I'll do it if no one else will, but I'd prefer an informed writer do it. Pitr 07:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Endsong(cont.)

On a related note to Endsong, can anyone add to the articles the issues in which this takes place? or is this a seperate mini-series altogether?

It was a five issue miniseries. --DrBat 01:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slight change in wording

Jean Grey was not, as the article claimed, the "one true host" of the Phoenix Force. A scan of an Excalibur issue here proves that Rachel was called that at one point, however. Perhaps there was confusion. In any case, it was an inaccurate statement so I modified it.

She is the 'true host' of the Phoenix Force, shown in Endsong when Phoenix declared, "You and I are One." I agree that she is not the 'one true host', but she is the 'true host'.

Uh... if Endsong doesn't call her the "true host" (whatever the heck that even means), then you can't really use Endsong as evidence that she is this "true host." So she and the Phoenix Force are "One..." that doesn't imply anything about "true host-ness," it just implies they've merged. Joeyconnick 23:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

To me the quote "you and I are one" means that Jean = Phoenix, and vice versa! It is her destiny, according to the writer of Endsong in a recent interview about the sequel to Endsong.

[edit] Powers and Abilities

"Phoenix can also (though she never did this) revive, absorb, rechannel and preserve any kind of lifeform." I disagree; Phoenix has revived Jean Grey's body, shown in Endsong. I removed the parenthetical note.

"Jean is considered to be one of the Earth's most powerful telepathic minds. It has been stated that Jean Grey's powers outclass the most powerful telepathic mutant, Professor X due to her cosmic class powers[issue # needed]. " I disagree with this. Charles Xavier has repeatedly been referred to as the most powerful telepath in the world. Jean doesn't outclass him, but the Phoenix does. It is, after all, a cosmic entity. Jealousghost 21:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)jealousghost 11/15/06

[edit] A bit unwieldy

This article is 43 kilobytes, maybe it's a time for it to get condensed a little. Kusonaga 10:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Edits

I tried to condense and rearrange. There was a paragraph in Romance about her attending the university, even though it didn't have any real relevance to her romances. I condenced the paragraph to a sentence.

The Phoenix section is really difficult to revise, considering it is one of the biggest aspects of Jean's life. I left it lengthy, and I urge others to do so as well.

[edit] Jean's name is Jean

Jean Grey's primary name is "Jean Grey" not "Phoenix" so please use Jean Grey to refer to the character. Here are two quotes and a dialogue that show the importance of Jean simply being Jean.

Jean: "You might believe that. But I've already LIVED my worst nightmare...MORE than ONCE. Would you like me to SHARE it with you? In my worst nightmare...I'm JUST myself. Not the PHOENIX. Not MADELYNE PRYOR. Not even MARVEL GIRL. I'm JUST Jean Grey...one of the most POWERFUL PSI'S on the PLANET. The frightening thing is, in my dream, I'm not afraid to LOSE MYSELF in my mutant ability. I CUT LOOSE. Completely. THAT'S my worst nightmare. SEE?" (Uncanny X-Men #300)

Wolverine: Jean, these kids don't know what's what, but you and me, we've seen it all before. You ain't here as anybody's servant...yer the Phoenix. Yer an A-grade telekinetic talent tapped into a cosmic power source. But yer still Jean Grey-Summers! (New X-Men 154)

Jean: I'm going now, Scott. I'm so scared... Scott: Who are you? Jean: ... Jean. Jean Grey. Scott: That's right, you're Jean Grey, and always will be. No matter what happens, no matter where you go or how you grow or what the cosmos tell you. (Phoenix Ensong #5) Facto 03:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

But her codename is still Phoenix. When she wasn't connected to the Phoenix force, she still adopted the codename Phoenix after The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix to honor Rachel (who assumed the mantle of Phoenix in her abscence). She also assumed the identity to empower herself. She never quit her using her codename. And consider that in Morrison's New X-Men storyline, Jean is referred to as the Phoenix by friends, enemies, and even in the character roll-call. The Phoenix Force itself tells Professor X, that "Jean is the only house where I live". In Endsong she tells the Phoenix Force "I'm you". Also, in every alternate Marvel reality, Jean is Phoenix. In 2005's What If, Professor X says that the comatose teenage Jean is a force that resonates through the multiverse, and when she awakens from her coma, she is Phoenix. Jean is the Phoenix, always was, always will be. MetaStar 04:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Jean's current codename is Phoenix but her original codename was Marvel Girl. But Jean Grey is the name that sticks with her throughout her comic book history, in X-Men videogames, X-Men movies, X-Men cartoons, etc. The title of the article is also Jean Grey not Phoenix. Also, why do you want to use that picture of Jean from X-Men: The End as the main picture. I think that should be moved to the X-Men: The End section (which doesn't exist yet). X-Men: The End is non-canonical, and also has more than one Phoenix.

Now and forever -- -- Cassandra Nova is Phoenix! (after she blasts a hole through Jean's chest)

So there's only one Jean Grey in the comics, and several Phoenixes. Jean Grey is her most unique, most established, and most frequent label, and it should be used first and Phoenix second. But I'll hold off editing Phoenix back to Jean Grey until this discussion is over. Facto 05:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

her current codename *is* Phoenix (she's still kinda dead right). rachel grey is also phoenix. it was revealed jean grey is the "white phoenix." the name of the article is Jean Grey. i think this article should very much start like Dick Grayson's.

"Jean Grey is the fictional superhero and mutant in the Marvel Universe. She has used several codenames, including Phoenix and Marvel Girl, as a fouding member of the X-Men."

etc etc.

why refer to her as phoenix when Phoenix (comics) doesn't even redirect here. plus, cassandra nova is the phoenix... now and forever! Exvicious 11:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

OMG, a Jean discussion! Can I say a few things? Cool. Jean's not dead, she's off finding the remains of the Phoenix Force that the Shi'ar scattered (see Endsong # 5). C. Nova's only the Phoenix in the X-men the End (which is an alternate future, and she merged which Rachel, not Jean). I think that the Phoenix (comics) page refers soley to Phoenix Force. Rachel isn't Phoenix, she lost the force back in Cable, and is Marvel Girl now. And the Official x-men website www.uncannyxmen.net has Jean's profile under "Phoenix IV" . But, the biggest thing is when you have the Phoenix Force, you become Phoenix. They've pretty much established in Endsong that Jean IS the Phoenix Force. Thanks for letting me rant, see ya :) Coronis 14:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Again... there are several different Phoenixes who have run around the Marvel U, but (discounting alternate versions from alternate universes) only one Jean Grey. Rachel might not be calling herself Phoenix these days but she's sure manifesting the Phoenix effect a lot in Uncanny X-Men right now, plus the Shi'ar just went after her and her family because of her connection to the Phoenix Force. On top of all that, Jean went by Marvel Girl for about two decades and since being resurrected has, on top of sometimes choosing to go by Phoenix, also chosen Marvel Girl as an alias on top of choosing to have no superheroic alias at all. Yet she has never chosen not to call herself Jean Grey, nor do I think a good argument can be made (especially given the quotations above) that she thinks of herself as (the) Phoenix first and Jean Grey second. Phoenix is the codename, the alias, Jean is who she is. I'm not saying that doesn't mean she isn't merged with the Phoenix Force or that she doesn't have access to the Phoenix Force or whatever but all the stories regarding her struggles with the Phoenix Force are specifically about how it is her humanity, her being, her "Jean Grey-ness" which keeps it in check. So she should be referred to as Jean Grey, with a list of her various aliases, especially in this article. Given there's copious, copious amounts of information in the Phoenix Force (comics) and Dark Phoenix Saga articles detailing Jean's relationship with the Phoenix Force, I think that's only reasonable. Joeyconnick 18:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

One small point here: Not everyone keeps up with all the latest developments in comic books. When I stopped reading more than a decade ago, another character was known as the Phoenix (I don't honestly remember the other woman's name, though), not Jean Grey. At the time the going storyline was that Jean had been replaced by the Phoenix Force, so she had never truly been the Phoenix at all. Stick with Jean Grey, as it just makes more sense to a wider group of possible readers. Sxeptomaniac 20:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't know if this makes any sense as I'm not a big fan, but: how about referring to Jean as 'Jean' when discussing her pre-transformation; and then use 'Phoenix' when referring to her post-transformation? ~ Flooch 23:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jean SHB pic

Image:WhitePhoenix.jpg: Again we have a tug-of-war with another SHB pic. Since it worked so well on the Huntress page, perhaps a third-party opinion would help. Maybe we could use Jean's last official appearance from Endsong? It's a current pic, it shows Jean's humanity, and its still art by Greg Land. What does everyone think (anything to end the drama)? Coronis 02:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll go along with that. MetaStar 01:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The End image is an alternate reality, so from the getgo it can't be the SHB image.

She's only worn that white costume twice, at the end of "Here Comes Tommorow" and at the end of Endsong. The other image shows all her other incarnations, and represents Jean's history better. --DrBat 01:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course YOU don't agree. And your info is totally false. Endsong is part of the mainstream continuity. Rachel even mentions the events of endsong in Uncanny X-Men. I've also noticed that you're violating the three-revert rule on any of the pages I've edited. Guarding "your" articles is very immature. MetaStar 01:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Get your facts straight. I was referring to your image from the X-Men: The End series as being an alternate reality. And again, as for the white costume, she has only worn it twice. The other Endsong image also better represents her history.

And you're a fine one to talk about your immaturity, with your barrage of childish insults. --DrBat 01:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Awww, she's so pretty! Let's use her. She looks evil in the main picture, and Jean shouldn't look evil. She's Rachel's mom for goodness sakes. MarvelousGirl 04:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I find it highly suspicious a new user happens to register right now, and then all she does is continue to make the same reverts MetaStar made. (and btw, I forgot to log out of my brother's account before I made the edit, but that was me who changed the image. )--DrBat 19:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Not again! DrBat let it go. We both got a 24 hour ban becuase of this, and your at it again? And now your trashing users just because they picked the pic Coronis set up? You have issues dude, major issues. MetaStar 22:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

like I said before, I found it highly suspicious that a new user would suddenly register and start making the exact same changes you made. --DrBat 00:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not again! User:MetaStar and User:DrBat why do you two insist on dragging this out. I suggested the picture of White Phoenix to alleviate the bickering, not stir it up more. It's not fun to see the edit war you two are creating (this talk page is becoming downright hostile). If you two don't act like adults and come to a sensible solution, I'm going to get an admin and we'll have a vote (just like in Huntress) and the decision will be taken out of both your hands. Coronis 22:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've already stated my argument; she's only worn the white costume twice. The red costume is far more significant to the character.

Furthermore, despite attempting to talk politely and maturely to MetaStar, MetaStar has been nothing but rude and insulting. Check her talk page if you don't believe me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MetaStar --DrBat 00:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Im a GUY! MetaStar 00:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I was just trying to help and I can see your point. It just the constant reversions are getting slightly annoying so I was trying to find a solution that might appease BOTH of you. If you feel the current pic is better, then I will happily go along with that. I wasn't singling you out, MetaStar is also part of this. I can see where you feel abused (and rightly so), and I am sure had I been the one getting called names, I would be less than thrilled about allowing MetaStar to keep his pics up while yours get taken down. My only complaint is the thing about User:MarvelousGirl being "suspicious", she is my cousin (she was on my computer just a few hours ago, and she thought you were calling her a sockpuppet), and spent a lot of time on wikipedia with me, so she saw all of edit wars on Jean and Rachel's articles (I said I wasn't getting into it, but she really wanted to help out) Coronis 00:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I just assumed, because she started making edits to the articles right when MetaStar was doing his reversions. Anyway, I'm really sorry for the misunderstanding there. --DrBat 01:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone, I'm new so bear with me. But the White Costume has been worn more than twice. Voila, a reference! http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/ggnimages/Fave%20Characters/phoenix90.jpg I believe it to me much more significant to the character than the other color costumes. Adding to that, perhaps a section should be added regarding her costumes? --jealousghost 04:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jean pic vote

okay let's vote. i'm tired of the back and forth. it seems like you both just want to change because the other changed the pic. so let's vote, then it doesn't matter what metastar or drbat wants::

• Greg Land from Endsong
• White Phoenix
• X-Men: The End

Exvicious 01:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong--DrBat 01:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong Joeyconnick 06:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

White Phoenix CovenantD 18:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong --DDG 20:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong Badbilltucker 20:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't like Greg Land from Endsong it has Jean but it adds Cyclops and he doesn't belong. I vote for finding another pic cause White Phoenix is too thin vertically and I don't like X-Men: The End which has Jean with short hair. Facto 22:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It shows key moments of Jean's life, some of which include her romance with Cyclops. --DrBat 23:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If she likes him so much, she should marry him! Am I right? --Chris Griswold 19:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Rather redundantly (seeing as how the only one who wanted to change was User:MetaStar, voting is closed! 'endsong' wins 4 to 1. Exvicious 22:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Boy, you must be blind. There's two other people who wanted something other than Greg Land. CovenantD 01:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

they should've spoke up when we had the vote then facto just said he hated everything and you're the only one who voted for a different picture. which was also by greg land--Exvicious 19:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

User Dstorres insists in disrespecting the pic vote. —Lesfer ^(talk/@) 05:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith for the guidelines on this. Dstorres's preferred pic isn't even a choice in the vote. I think we need to compile more choices and have a revote. Facto 06:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you for the support Facto. I wasn't even aware of this issue until Lesfer pointed it out to me last night or I would have been more understanding. I agree with you and would like a new vote. Dstorres

[edit] confusing

I know it is supposed to be confusing, since Claremont is such a fan of clones and daughters and sons of future timelines and entities linving in a character's body, but switching from calling the character Jean Gray on one paragraph to Phoenix on another only makes things more confising!!

I propose to call the character Jean Gray in all paragraphs, unless we're talking about the firebird thing alone. If it is important to point that we're talking about a Phoenix-influenced Jean Gray, I think we could call her "Jean Gray/Phoenix", then. Imagine that we are writting this for a person with no idea of who this characters are.

--201.114.99.246 03:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record, her family name is Grey with an E not A. Dstorres

[edit] X3: Jean's Death Speculation (SPOILER WARNING)

At the end of the X3 section, there is some speculation regarding whether Wolverine stabs Jean with his claws, or a cure needle. I don't know if this is necessary. The only physical object near Jean that wasn't being atomized was Wolverine himself, because adamantium is indestructible, and his body was regenerating fast enough. The cure needle would have suffered the same fate.

Just checking if there are any objections. StellarFury 07:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Wolverine stabs Jean with his claws. Otherwise she wouldn't be dead at the end of the movie. The cure needle would not have killed her. But we see Jean Grey's tombstone along with Scott Summers'. Facto 07:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the argument is she said "save me, " wolverine cures her, and they fake her death so the human's won't come looking for her. I think it would be better if she's dead. Every major character that came back could be alive anyway. Professor X transferred his brain, we never actually see cyclops die, and the jean grey cure thing. Exvicious 18:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

After Jean falls you can clearly see Wolverine's claws so there is no chance that they "faked" Jean's death. For the record. Dstorres

True. It's not as if that sort of thing might not kill her. --Chris Griswold 00:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] X3: Phoenix Speculation (SPOILER WARNING)

"However, the Phoenix is also probably an external cosmic force that inhabited her and tapped into her unlimited potential, as many a time in X2, she displayed the fiery energy of the Phoenix in her eyes, and most notably, she appeared to be engulfed in flames at the end just before she supposedly drowned. Another fact that further proves this is the fact that the faint outline of a Phoenix was seen flying over the waters of the Alkali Lake, at the end, just before the credits came out. It is the Phoenix who kills Scott (Cyclops) and later Xavier."

I think the above is speculation trying to make what we know about Jean from X-Men comics fit with the events in X3. Yes we see hints of Phoenix in Jean's eyes and in the water but this is not proof that Jean is possesed by an alien force. We know that the movies resemble to comics but need not adhere to them directly. If there are future movies they will have to decide how to treat this but God knows that there are so many Universes and lifetimes of Jean you could almost do anything and it would have been on one book or another.

mice 20:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The above has been cleaned up quite a bit ans its a lot better. I still have to nit pick though.

"In X-Men: The Last Stand, she appears in a form similar to Dark Phoenix, but is merely called the Phoenix and exhibits Phoenix-level powers."

I agree that Jean definitely makes the transition to Dark Phoenix or something a lot like that in X3. However, much like many characters in this movie (Kitty, Colossus, to name 2) their hero names are not used. I don't think anyone refers to Jean as Phoenix in this or any of the X* movies at least not verbally. If I'm just splitting hairs just tell me. We all know who she is so perhaps it doesn't matter.

mice 06:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image problems

The point has been made on the Wikiproject talk page that this article is having image trouble, featuring poorly illustrative images than run close to violating Fair Use, and focusing on newer images and images of Phoenix rather than Jean Grey. I'd like to work with others to redress this. First of all, I would like to see a solo picture of Jean Grey in the SHB, not Phoenix. Personally, I'd like to see her in the last X-Men uniform she wore, with the grey sweater and the black leather jacket. Thoughts? --Chris Griswold 00:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Image:Riotatxavier's.jpg You mean this one? --Facto 01:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That one. --Chris Griswold 01:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually disagree, though I see the need for some kind of solution on this issue. All other issues aside, I think the last picture we had was very illustrative of Jean Grey in many of her incarnations over the past several decades, focusing on the role for which she is best known: Phoenix. Frankly, the Phoenix and the Dark Phoenix saga are defining events in Jean Grey's character, and it is absolutely justifiable to put an image of Phoenix in the SHB. Like I said, though, I like the previous one because it wasn't ONLY Phoenix that was in the picture. The Phoenix costume is synonymous with Jean Grey like no other costume is.

Just my thoughts. I'm curious to see what other people think. -Vontafeijos 04:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Does it have the proper tag? —Lesfer ^(talk/@) 05:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Image:Grey Hughes.jpg

Can we use fanart (the Grey-Hughes image)? Yes, I know it's by AH!, a professional artist, but it's still fanart. - SoM 00:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What about the Jean art by Ethan Van Sciver? NeoCoronis 00:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Image:PhoenixNX134.jpg

She never wore that costume in-comic (it was a cover for an abandoned Phoenix mini that they used up as a NXM cover rather than letting it go to waste). - SoM 00:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Not only has she worn that costume for a short period of time, but the likelihood of her wearing it in the future is very rare, with the X-Men dropping the leather outfits after Morrison left the series. --DrBat 00:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, she hasn't worn the black costume since New X-Men #150. Since Jean's current costume is the classic Phoenix costume, maybe we should use a pic with her in it, like maybe the cover to Uncanny X-Men # 354. I have that one and lots more Jean pics if needed :) NeoCoronis 00:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Give us some samples? I'd like to see her in something classic green Phoenix, please...  ;-) CovenantD 01:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Heres a few from my scans collection NeoCoronis 01:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Green Phoenix Costume Jean
• Marvel Girl/Green Phoenix hybrid costume
• Red Phoenix costume
• Green Phoenix costume variant of Red Phoenix with B/W background
• Green Phoenix, Adam Hughes art
• Green Phoenix with psychic aura

This one was added by User:Dstorres

• Green Phoenix, Greg Land art

I prefer the Green Phoenix Greg Land art uploaded by Dstorres, or the one that we had before with the multiple incarnations. -Vontafeijos 18:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Im leaning towards Green Phoenix costume variant of Red Phoenix with B/W background or Green Phoenix Costume Jean. Anyone else have an opinion on this? NeoCoronis 18:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I like the Greg Land one. I would like the Phoenix Endsong with B/W background, but as the background contains prominent images of other characters, it is both confusing and very questionably fair use. --DDG 18:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely the Green Phoenix, Greg Land art. This is probably her best known look and lacks the cartoony quality of Green Phoenix Costume Jean. CovenantD 18:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not though (and this applies to all the Greg Land pics), because the Phoenix symbol is HUGE, whereas on the actual green Phoenix costume (as opposed to a recoloured red one), it's tiny and contained within a black neck-area, as shown in the Cockrum pic. - SoM 20:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it was just the original cover (which had her wearing the red outfit) recolored. --DrBat 21:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded a edited version of the Phoenix Endsong with the B/W background, no characters in the back. NeoCoronis 20:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't altering the picture violate "fair use" though? Don't get me wrong, I like the pic, I just don't want to use anything that would have to be pulled. CovenantD 20:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

No. It's even better when we crop the image. I like this last one by NeoCoronis. —Lesfer ^(talk/@) 21:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So, would anyone have a problem with using Phoenix Endsong with the B/W background for the SHB pic? NeoCoronis 03:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jean.png reflects Jean's history and powers much better than any other picture. However, if you must, then use Phoenix Endsong with the B/W background. Anything is better than the current picture, which does not do justice to the artistic and dramatic significance of Jean Grey in the X-men universe. Before this issue is resolved, I would like to temporarily return the picture back to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jean.png. To: ExcaliDragon, really, the current picture is awful. Jean looks like an amateur student, instead of the omega-level mutant with one of the richest history among X-men. Baderyp 13:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

POV much? And Jean has never worn the Dark Phoenix costume - she's worn a red costume twice - an X-Factor red costume with yellow X over it, and the redesigned Phoenix costume of the X-Men: Revolution period. Phoenix has, Rachel had, not Jean. Ergo, not representative.- ExcaliDragon 02:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Baderyp. I'm not a huge fan of the edited B&W background one... the stripes made sense when the other characters were in the image, but now they're just strange looking. When the other characters are in the image, though, they're distracting. It's still way better than the other one uploaded by Griswold. -Vontafeijos 19:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Which picture do you think I uploaded? --Chris Griswold 19:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops. I meant the Riot at Xavier's one. Sorry about that. -Vontafeijos 20:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

We have a lot of SHB pic changing going on, should we have a vote and pick one picture for the SHB, so (hopefully) it won't be a different picture every hour? NeoCoronis 13:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

meh. what's the point. no one respects the vote anyway. Exvicious 09:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoken version of Jean Grey

The spoken version of the article is up, if you have any comments let me know. I didn't think it would take 52 minutes for me to read it all. --Facto 07:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Breathier, please. Make it sexy. --Chris Griswold 07:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

That .ogg soundfile for is apparently a machine being poorly recorded. It's like someone recorded themselves whilst using a synthesizer, or some other device that messes up one's voice. Isn't there...like...some sort of policy against unintelligible spoken article files? ACS (Wikipedian) 20:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see this comment of mine was ignored. Talk pages at their best. Anyway, I don't know about you two, but I have a fierce prejudice against additions that hurt more than help. Having no sound file would be better presenting Facto's Robotalk. I'm removing it. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 00:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cable

Since when is Cable her biological son? Madelyne is Cable's mother, so at best Jean is an aunt. --DrBat 00:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't you know Madelyne's just a part of Jean Grey. --Facto 00:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Jean absorbed MP post-Inferno, but expelled her in the Judgement War, allowing Nate Grey to later temporarily resurrect her before an Evil Alternate Jean knocked her back to the psi-plane (where she'd tell Cable she couldn't physically manifest any more) and took her place.

Jean's certainly his adoptive mother though, given that "Redd" raised him with "Slym" for the first twelve years or so of his life... - SoM 00:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Plus, D'spayre told Cable that Jean was his mother in blood, just not in spirit. And in Apocalypse the Twelve, Apocalypse referred to Jean and Cable as the Mother and Son component of his machine. Also Madelyne's being a genetic copy of Jean means that Cable is the biological son of Jean and Cyclops by proxy (Jean just didn't give birth to Cable). NeoCoronis 03:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

By extension, that makes Stryfe Jean's son as well, since we're counting clones as, biologically, the same as the originals. EVula 03:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's say "genetic son" so as not to confuse it with her having given birth to him. --Chris Griswold 08:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that the same as saying that my aunt would also be my mother, if the two were genetically identical? Madelyne gave birth to Nathan, not Jean. --DrBat 00:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No; clones aren't the same as siblings. Even twins have differences; clones do not (at least, not in the X-comics). EVula 00:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

According to wikipedia: "Identical twins have identical DNA but differing environmental influences throughout their lives affect which genes are switched on or off." --DrBat 00:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

But in the comics, a clone is created from a donor's DNA, and is completely identical to the donor (twins do have subtle gentic differences). Any child conceived by the clone is also progeny of the donor. For example, if I was cloned (using the comic book cloning technology), and my clone had a kid, then kid's DNA would be half his mother's, and half mine. Even though I had no part in the child's conception, genetically he would be my son. Also this is just a wierd fact I learned from my genetics professor, "If identical twin brothers married identical twin sisters, their offspring would be so genetically similar, that they would almost be siblings instead of cousins". NeoCoronis 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Should we just list Cable as "son of clone"? --DrBat 01:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to suggest the same thing. Does this mean Stryfe is "alternate-future clone of son of clone"? and Tyler is "alternate-future grandson of clone"--Chris Griswold 02:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That'd be fine, it would accurately depict Cable's relationship with Jean, just include the fact that Jean is his adoptive mother too (Jean raised him for twelve years, and loved him as her son, and several comics referred to him as Jean's son), so "adoptive son/son of clone" would be best. NeoCoronis 02:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Costumes

Since its been a point of argument.

A few caveats - these are not absolutely complete listings. I'm ignoring short lived (six issues or less - except Dark Phoenix Saga) costumes, periods where she wasn't appearing anywhere (except reprints), but AM including Phoenix (Skip Uncanny #101-137 for Phoenix). Also, I'm only including listings for one series at a time, except where the changes occur in different series - these are indicators of time periods rather than exhaustive.

• Original black-blue and yellow (mask varies): Uncanny #1 - #38
• Green minidress: Uncanny #39 - #66 (plus Giant-Size X-Men #1)
• Green Phoenix: Uncanny #101 - #132
• Dark Phoenix: Uncanny #134 - #136 (THREE ISSUES! Plus the minidress, Green & Dark Phoenix costumes all appear in Uncanny137)
• Green X-Factor: X-Factor #1 - #26
• Red X-Factor: X-Factor #26 - #62
• Blue X-Factor: X-Factor #63 - #70
• Jim Lee X-Men: X-Men #1/Uncanny #281 - Uncanny #352 (plus X-Men: The Animated Series)
• Green Phoenix reprise: Uncanny #354 - #358, X-Men #92 - #99 (equiv. to Uncanny #371 - #380)
• X-Men Revolution Phoenix: X-Men #100 - X-Men #113
• New X-Men black-grey and yellow: New X-Men #114 - NXM #148

I don't think the Dark Phoenix costume should be in the box somehow... - SoM 09:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Things that could be included in article

1. Jean versus Onslaught
2. Jean versus Sabretooth
3. Jean versus Emma Frost (first battle)

--Facto 10:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Jean's battle with painkillers. --Chris Griswold 11:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New jean Pic vote

As the SHB image is changing every hour, lets have a vote to select a pic of Jean once and for all. I don't care what is picked, just as long as we pick one we can agree on. And the Jean.png has been changed to a Jim Lee pic of Jean in her gold-and-blue costume, so I left it out (as she hasn't worn that suit in years). If anyone has a pic that they like better than the ones I have, feel free to nominate your own, and add it to the list. NeoCoronis 21:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Jean Reborn
• Green Phoenix Costume Jean
• Green Phoenix B/W background
• Green Phoenix, Adam Hughes art
• Green Phoenix with psychic aura
• Green Phoenix, Greg Land art
• Jean in Black
• Phoenix revolution
• Phoenix w/ claws in foreground

Of the images presented, I prefer PhoenixES1v.jpg (Greg Land's). That said, I prefer the Jim Lee version over Greg Land's. EVula 22:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll second the Jim Lee pic, with the Riot image as second choice. OTOH, aren't polls evil? - SoM 23:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll vote for anything BUT the Jim Lee pic, only because she hasn't worn that suit in a decade. And voting isn't evil, it's the backbone of democracy, lol. But seriously, if I changed the pic on my own, it could lead to an edit war, but if we all pick a picture that we can agree on, then maybe we can hold off the "flavor of the month" pictures that keep popping up in the SHB. NeoCoronis 00:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Breaking down the images:

• Lee - it's not been worn in a while, but it's her longest-serving costume in terms of issues worn (go check chronologyproject.com using the bounds I posted above if you don't believe me), which helps on fair use (which is the reason the Dark Phoenix costume pic was shot down, remember), and it was the costume used on the cartoon, which helps further.
• The Land green-replacing-red variants (ES1v and 2V) - depict a costume she's never actually worn (green with huge Phoenix symbol), even in Endsong itself. They're non-representative variants, churned out for speed rather than accuracy. Can't be fair use for that reason - they've got to be representative.
• The other Land pic (out of the water) is at a bad angle to show the costume. Plus, it duplicates the Cockrum image from down the page very nicely (changing the angle doesn't stop it being a swipe), which is another strike against it.
• Hughes pic simply isn't a SHB pic. We want a single image focusing on the character, not a series of panels (and what's that arty-farty thing he's doing with the legs & sash blending together and going white? And her hair isn't red).
• PhoenixAXM.JPG is a horrible, horrible scan. Whatever its' merits or otherwise as a picture, it would need to go back to the glass before it could be considered.
• The Bachalo pic is taken from uncannyxmen.net. I speak from experience when I say, you don't want to go there.
• The Quietly one's the second-best (as I said) after the Lee pic. But it's a team uniform rather than a Jean-specific costume, amongst other things. - SoM 00:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Re-Scanned Green Phoenix with psychic aura, so after that much trouble, I'm voting for it NeoCoronis 01:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no way in the world that is rescanned - do an experiment, and put the older version in one Firefox tab, the newer version in another and flick back and forth. They are pixel-for-pixel identical in every way except:

• The plonking of the word "Phoenix" (in Courier script) over "Warren"
• Additional JPEG artifiacts, of the sort you would get from saving a JPEG as a JPEG again in MSPaint (that's not a surmise, I've just done it to double-check, and I got exactly the same set of artifacts).

It is literally impossible to get two scans, done at different times, to line up pixel-for-pixel identical the way they have here, never mind the same edits to wipe away the bg. And the additional graining from the JPEG saving confirms it. You opened the image in MSPaint, wiped out "Warren", crudely inserted "Phoenix" over it, resaved and expected it to pass as a new scan. When the result not only suffers from all the original's problems, but a whole new set too. - SoM 02:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That was breathtaking. --Chris Griswold 13:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

...I don't know how to take that...? - SoM 06:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Like a man, SoM; like a man. --Chris Griswold 21:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The current version was the original I had on my old PC, the first version PhoenixAXM.JPG was an attempt to shrink it to fit an article I had been doing (which I still had on my current PC). I had to look though some of my picture CDs to find the original, re-load (re-scanned was a "slip of the tongue" as it were) it on my current hardrive, and then uploaded it on Wikipedia. Afterwards, I thought "Warren" was just odd, so I edited the pic with Paintshop (and the Comic MS script wouldn't fit clearly) and re-loaded. NeoCoronis 02:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I meant rescanned literally. The levels are off, the colours are off and it's badly cropped out. (And Comic Sans = evil, for the record) - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why you are being so hostile to me when all I've done is try to help. Have I in anyway done anything to you to make you jump all over me like this? NeoCoronis 02:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not being hostile. I'm being honest and avoiding weasel words. There's a difference. - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Why isn't the Greg Land Jean.png image available anymore? I thought that one was the best in terms of representation.-Vontafeijos 03:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleted as non-fair use via. WP:IFD. Not an option. - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Why was that one non-fair use while the current one (Phoenix with claws in foreground) is? Don't they both come from Endsong?Baderyp 21:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If I really had to pick one here, it would be the variant cover of Endsong, green costume. I take issue with claims that it's non-representative... it's totally representative of Phoenix costumes previously worn, even if it's not exact. -Vontafeijos 03:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

When there are plenty of images which ARE "exact", it's not fair use to use one which isn't.

And that's assuming the Dave Cockrum suit is desirable as the box image in the first place... - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone replaced the Greg Land Jean.png with the Jim Lee version, and before that with a Van Sciver New X-Men cover NeoCoronis 03:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I really like the one that's up now, as shown in this diff.[1] Can we add it to the list? CovenantD 00:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, since you asked so nicely, it's on the list now. NeoCoronis 01:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

That one's nice. -Vontafeijos 03:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll vote for current but overall I'm not a fan of character articles with text on the SHB picture (title articles are different as comic covers work best, and often have text of course). Of the other choices above, the Greg Land works best as a textless image, but would depend on confirmation of SoM's comment that she's never actually worn that costume. Markeer 13:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jean's Status

I do not think it is appropriate to list Jean's Status as "Deceased". At the end of Phoenix: Endsong, she disappeared to some place (most likely the White Hot Room but not explicitly stated). She did not "die" again. I am changing it back to Inactive unless someone else comes up with a better solution. I'm rejecting "Active (in unseen ways)" and "Deceased" as the comics do not support these. --Facto 07:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to say "Unknown?" Inactive makes it sound like she's one of those characters who didn't really die but was just forgotten because none of the readers liked them, which is definitely not true with Jean Grey. She's very active in the storylines, even if she's not actually there; in this way, Inactive is a little misleading. And since we're not totally sure what the White Hot Room is--if it's some kind of death, or something else altogether--Unknown seems more appropriate. Thoughts? -Vontafeijos 07:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with Unknown. We know she's not dead, and it wouldnt be totally accurate to say alive either at this point.DemonWeb 13:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. --Chris Griswold 00:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Per the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Proliferation of Ultimate character articlesWP:COMIC talk page, Ultimate character entries should be merged into the character's main article.--Chris Griswold 05:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

• Merge--Chris Griswold 05:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge Dr Archeville 15:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• No Merge--Mr Wednesday 21:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge Markeer 16:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
• No Merge The actual guideline is "until the article grows too large." This article is already 1½ times as large as recommended. CovenantD 22:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Would you change your mind if I condensed this one? It needs it badly. --Chris Griswold 08:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. CovenantD 13:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Take a look. I'm a freak.--Chris Griswold 08:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Merge CovenantD 16:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and Condense there's not enough variant between the two versions. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 23:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge. -Vontafeijos 01:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Closed with CONSENSUS TO MERGE CovenantD 17:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussions

Once again the Ultimate characters are their own person. Their becoming a bigger hit than any of the other Ult Universes. Let them be.Mr Wednesday 21:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The Ultimate X-Men are completly different from their Earth-616 counterparts. I say that the Ultimates get their own pages since they have their own backstories, powers (like Rogue), and stats. Mixing the maistream version with their Ultimate counterparts is confusig, and a waste of space.--Kitsune dxb 11:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Semi-strong opinion. Might help if you vote. ACS (Wikipedian) 22:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Rogue's power appears to be the same in both series. --Chris Griswold 13:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with Kitsune dxb. Having two articles is much more confusing; the fact that Ultimate characters are different than the regular Marvel Universe characters may not be evident to casual Wikipedians who don't read comics, which would lead to confusion about why there are two articles for what is, at least at first glance, one character. -Vontafeijos 01:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I also think it would be a better idea to keep ultimate and the mainstream combined rather than seperate. When they are seperated it might be easier for someone to find somehting specific they're lookign for, but in all reality its easier to read up and learn about one of the characters when they're combined --joshie 00:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Endsong

Redid the Endsong article. Hopefully it's a bit more comprehensive.

[edit] PLEASE!!! Could an expert or a fan create a new page focusing on the Dark Phoenix character????

An X-Men/Dark Phoenix real-fan should create an article which focus on the Dark Phoenix character with the intention of exclude it from the Dark Phoenix Saga article, so that Dark Phoenix initiate fans like me can know more about her. Thank you for your attention. Lord Hammu (Talk)

Why? Why does it need to be separate? --Chris Griswold 11:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Phoenix (comics) is the page for the Phoenix Force, which is Dark Phoenix. The Dark Phoenix section of that page has been expanded a bit. I think that's easier than creating a whole new page, especially since Dark Phoenix is Phoenix as well. - User talk:Anarkeya 7/23/06

you should also do the white phoenix of the crown

[edit] Endsong/Warsong

I think someone should create a page for both Phoenix Endsong and Phoenix Warsong as they are important events in the X-Men comics, like the Dark Phoenix Saga.--Kitsune dxb 20:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think there's enough information to warrant a new article yet. Maybe after Warsong, but right now only Jean/Phoenix has really been affected by the Endsong mini-series. So far I think Endong is a Jean/Phoenix story not an X-Men story arc. - User talk:Anarkeya 7/23/06
• I plan on updating the Warsong article as the issues come out. Will post when I update so I can get some feedback and possibly some help. So far it's looking as though Warsong might need more updates in the Phoenix Force article rather than in the Jean Grey article.

[edit] Timeline of jeans costumes?

I've come across several timelines comiling all of jeans's costumes together, they were very interesting and very helpful, i've even started to make my own version as well, what if wikipedia were to add a costume timeline to jeans bio? any thoughts are appreciated. --joshie 02:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Do it on the talk first, and we'll see if it's good enough for the article. --Jamdav86 11:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jean Grey / PHOENIX??!!

Is no one going to mention the boneheaded renaming of this article from "Jean Grey" to "Jean Grey / Phoenix" based on the completely spurious notion that Jean has ALWAYS been associated with Phoenix?

I very much think this should be reversed. Yes, the whole Phoenix thing is important to Jean's story but it's not all she is and it's certainly not a codename she used throughout her history. Plus if I understand the WikiProject Comics convention, it should be "Phoenix (Jean Grey)" at the very least--not that I think it should be used at all. Joeyconnick 09:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I undid the nonsensical move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone moved it again, which I promptly undid. I've protected the article from being moved; only another admin can do it now. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overlinking

There is alot of overlinking in the article. For eg: Wolverine and Cyclops have been linked about 5 times. Could somebody pick up the slack and sort this out? TommyStardust 14:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pics (again)

Looking through the article, it's striking that there isn't a pic of Jean as she first appeared as Marvel Girl. I think it's a big oversight. On the other hand, I don't think the ménage à trois ;) with Scott and Emma really adds anything. So, in the interest of keeping this simple, I propose the following:

1. Add a pic of early Jean in her Marvel Girl mini-skirt
2. Remove the Jean walking in on cheatin' Scott and homewrecker Emma
3. Adjust the placement of the remaining pics.

Support CovenantD 09:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimate Pic too old!

Update needed need to at least change the pic to longer hair. i hate the old ultimate jean, PLEASE change it!

I disagree. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 02:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont mean to sound offensive but what you hate or want has no sway of what will happen. If you can present a good reason as to why the image needs to be changed then say it. Thefro552 02:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)