Talk:Johann Strauss II

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Contents 1 Requested Move 1.1 Discussion 2 Jnr or II 3 copywrite laws anyone? 4 Spelling 5 Strucz János

[edit] Requested Move

His name was written with an "ß" and not "ss". In the German language, last names exists that can only be written with an "ß", not an "ss". Anything deviating from that would be simply incorrect, in any language. Therefore I propose to correct this mistake. Gryffindor

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Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. Gryffindor 23:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Strauss is how his last name is commonly written in English. Mark 02:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. As per Mark. – Axman (☏) 06:55, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Transliteration is not necessary for names written with the Latin alphabet, as per Use English. And it's nice to distinguish between Strauss and Strauß. But if there's a clear consensus among the people actually editing the article to keep it here I'm willing to defer to that. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 10:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose the creeping expansion of non-English characters in the English Wikipedia. older≠wiser 14:55, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support--Schubbay 18:52, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Absolutely oppose The place to revise WP:Use English is there, not here. The distinction between Strauss and Strauß is between writing in English and in German; this encyclopedia should be written in English. Septentrionalis 23:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support Darkone 01:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose —Wahoofive (talk) 05:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. "Use English" does not mean "misspell foreign names". --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 09:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Keep it at the English version of the name. Tree&Leaf 16:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support, but "II" is also wrong. There are differentiated as Son and Father. --Geiserich77 17:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose: Both the websites of the official Johann-Strauss-Society in Vienna http://www.johann-strauss-gesellschaft.at/ and the international Johann Strauss platform http://www.johann-strauss.at/ have the spelling Strauss with ss. So there is no need to change the lemma. --85.180.148.170 18:23, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• OPPOSE Not English. 132.205.45.148 19:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with the Gauss vs Gauß viewpoint. However, the actual German spelling should be noted in the introductory paragraph (just as we note that "Vienna" is called "Wien" in German). - grubber 21:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose Strauss is his (and his father's) name in English. [[1]] --Henrygb 23:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. This is not an English name. up◦land 09:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. In general, adding diacritics to a name when it is not normally done in English is no problem as long as the letter is still recognizable, as people who don't know the diacritic can easily ignore it. In this case, someone who does not speak German (after all, it's not the German wikipedia here) will probably read this name as Straub. Eugene van der Pijll 18:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose This is the English language wikipedia. We do not write Russian names in Cyrllic. CalJW 03:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support --Stemonitis 13:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose The primary listing in the English language Wikipedia should use the alphabet with which English-only speakers are familiar and know where to find on their computers. The correct original-language spelling should also be given in the article and used as a secondary listing if the software permits it. –Shoaler (talk) 12:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. No Account 19:39, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support. My mother, Joanne Strauss (ha ha ha) writes her name with "ss" because she wants to. Thus, if Johann wrote his name with a "β", then we should respect this and make the page that way. However, I also understand that this will cause difficulty for unknowing American searchers. Thus, I say there should be a page which lists composers who's names are written differently in English, and their correctly written counterparts. That way, everyone will be able to find Mr. Johann Strauβ I and II. –No Account 20:35, 18 April 2006

[edit] Discussion

Please make some more enquires on the spelling of his name before decision on move is made. Such as on the page Talk:Carl Friedrich Gauss, where it was determined that both Gauss and Gauß are acceptable in German, but in English only Gauss is acceptable through long, well-established conventions. Mark 02:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Note that in German, "the composer Strauss" has the unique meaning Richard Strauss, being the only one spelt with ss instead of ß.--Gwaihir 00:06, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

An encyclopædia is supposed to be authoritative, and to be authoritative, it needs to be correct. "Strauss" is a tolerated mis-spelling of Strauß, just as (IPA:) /straus/ is a tolerated mispronunciation of /ʃtraus/. Both are frequently encountered, but still not exactly correct. It harms no-one to spell it Strauß, so let's spell it right and stop arguing about it. The unfamiliar appearance of "ß" is solved by the use of the {{Foreignchar}} template. Any other arguments about it being "not English" seem to be just xenophobia. --Stemonitis 13:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

An Encyclopedia is supposed to be a digest of knowledge in a format accessible to the common person, who is a native of the lanugage it is written in, and no other language, to help them understand the subject. If the subject is Chinese, and the article is written half in Chinese because of your fussiness, no knowledge is imparted, and confusion reigns. An encyclopedia is *not* an authoritative source, it may list authorities however. It is frequently used inappropriately as an authority however. 132.205.45.110 19:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not xenophobia, it's common sense. If this goes through I will expect and require that all articles about foreign nonEnglish entities be moved to THE FOREIGN NON-ENGLISH NAME. Even if it's in Arabic, or Tibetan. Otherwise it's verging on racism. 132.205.45.110 19:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, Chinese and Arabic (except Maltese) are irrelevant to this discussion, since they use entirely different writing systems. Secondly, where there is an English name, we use the English name; nobody's arguing about that. It's just a question of what to do where there isn't an English name. Since a personal name does not usually exist in foreign-language variants (there's no way we'd call the article John Ostrich), there is only one spelling available. In this particular case, the discussion concerns whether or not the long-standing usage in many English-language texts of the spelling "Strauss" is a good enough reason to overturn the German spelling of "Strauß". Chinese doesn't enter into it. --Stemonitis 08:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Request not fulfilled due to lack of consensus. Rob Church ^Talk 19:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jnr or II

I know that Jnr is probably more common than II to distinguish him from his father, but I've put him here, because there are actually three Johann Strausses - III was the son of Eduard Strauss, and, while not a very well known figure, we might have an article on him one day. --Camembert

It is extremely disappointing and frustrating to see the contributions of others being wrecked by vandals. Luckily there is a revision history page to back up what was not damaged.

[edit] copywrite laws anyone?

correct me if i'm wrong but check this site.... http://www.classiccat.net/strauss_j_jr/biography.htm and tell me if someone cut and paste plz. ty. --Rey

That's legal under the GFDL. – flamurai (t) 01:43, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

I gather that the trend in modern German orthography is moving to de-emphasize the use of the ß, but for this article, shouldn't it be noted that in his own time, his name have been spelled Strauß? Ellsworth 23:45, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

FWIW the current German Wikipedia article's title uses ß. Joestynes 09:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The German spelling reform of 1996 deprecrates the use of ß after short vowels; it's still used after long vowels and diphthongs (au is a diphthong). Even the common nouns Strauß "bouquet" and Strauß "ostrich" are still spelled with ß. And names aren't affected by the spelling reform anyway. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 09:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The Strauß dynasty is written with 'ß', independent from the modern orthography, because this is not valid for proper names. Also with us, Johann Strauß is distinguished by father and son and not by I and II. So the true name in german is Johann Strauß, Vater, or Johann Strauß, Sohn. In the english version of www.aeiou.at both are distinguished as Johann Strauß, the Elder and Johann Strauß, the Younger. -- I hope to help --K@rl

True, but note that pre-1900 there were no standartized rules of orthography in German at all, so there is no spelling superior to the other. It is true, that a lot of modern dictionaries (not all, though) have the Strauss dynasty written with ß, but both the websites of the official Johann-Strauss-Society in Vienna http://www.johann-strauss-gesellschaft.at/ and the international Johann Strauss platform http://www.johann-strauss.at/ spell it Strauss, as common in Austria. On the other hand, Johann Strauss' own signature [2] clearly shows an ß. --85.180.148.170 18:23, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello! I have been asked to give here my statement: I have an originally signed autograph by Johann Strauß. It is signed by Strauß with an ß-letter at the End. My parents live in the house in the 2nd district of Vienna, where Johann Strauß II (son) has been born and where Johann Strauß (vather) lived. On the top of the entrance is also a sign where "Strauß" is written on it. Greetings from Vienna, --Andreas.poeschek 19:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

In Austria, the name ist mostly spelled "Strauß", even though in the 19th century both spellings were common (partly depending on which founts were used in printing). Nevertheless, a friend of mine who is a descendant of Johann Strauß Snr and Eduard Strauß also spelled his name "Strauß" until he officially had it changed to "Strauss" because of his many contacts to England since "ß" is unknown in English. For the very same reason the Johann-Strauss-Society of Vienna spells the name this way. On the other hand, in English language literature the spelling "Strauss" is indeed in use (e.g. Peter Kemp: The Strauss Family. Portrait of a Musical Dynasty. ISBN 0-8593-6265-5). Whether an English language encyclopaedia should use the one spelling or the other I cannot decide, but I do think that the sort of spelling common in the country of origin should at least be mentioned. --80.109.27.92 22:24, 24 October 2005 (UTC) (Wolfgang Glock)

[edit] Strucz János

Is Strauss's surname originally Strucz? I've been wondering what does this caricature mean. --Kazamatsuri 19:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)