Talk:Joseph Brant

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Ohio, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ohio. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

	This article is part of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, which collaborates on Native American, First Nations, and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet been rated on the assessment scale.
Suggested article edit guidelines: To help us prioritise our workload, and in readiness for Wikipedia:1.0, we need to assess our articles for Quality. If this article is Unassessed, please assess it. See the Article Classification for instructions. If you disagree with a rating, you can change it or discuss it at Article Classification. Before assessing this article, be sure to check the existing Archive of assessments made under the previous system (used until July 2006), and feel free to help in migrating the existing comments besides from adding your own evaluation. After assessing this article's quality, please make sure it to add it to the Lists at Article Classification, following the grading scheme detailed there.
Please rate this article and leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Allan W. Eckert's The Wilderness War (pp 7, 440-441) has Brant's birthplace as Shenango, "located on the right bank of the Ohio River below present Pittsburgh... near present Leetsdale, Pennsylvania". Shenango disappeared about 1748.

Also, Tiyanoga ("King Hendrick") was a friend of Brant's stepfather, but not Brant's grandfather. Brant's stepfather was the son of Saga-yean-qua-rash-tow, one of the "four kings" who were taken to England in 1710 by Peter Schuyler. If no one objects I'll make these changes. -- Mwanner 02:19, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'll object. :-) I love Eckert's books, but his scholarship does not always agree with academic sources, especially with regards to certain details about American Indians. He's probably not the best source for that kind of information. I don't think anyone knows for sure where Brant was born; I'd check other academic sources before disagreeing with Graymont. The best place for more infomation for this article is probably:

• Kelsay, Isabel Thompson. Joseph Brant, 1743-1807, Man of Two Worlds. Syracuse, N.Y.: Syracuse University Press, 1984.

I haven't read it, but historians often cite that book. By the way, Shenango was actually probably the Shawnee village of Logstown, present Economy, Pennsylvania, if memory serves. --Kevin Myers 02:49, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Glad I asked. BTW, Eckert makes a point of saying that "the village of Shenango ... should not be confused with the village of Logtown." I'll read further before jumping into anything. I remain somewhat skeptical about the Hendrick-as-grandfather claim, though. -- Mwanner 12:33, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I know I've read something somewhere about Hendrick-as-grandfather in the last couple of years, but I'm not sure where. What I read also talked about the recent interpretation that there were actually two Hendricks, and that historians have all along unwittingly combined two different Mohawk men into one biography. If you're interested, this info might have been in this book:

• Shannon, Timothy J. Indians and Colonists at the Crossroads of Empire: The Albany Congress of 1754. Cornell University Press, 2000.

Looking through some references, I did find one academic history (McConnell, A Country Between) that describes Logstown & Shenango as two different towns, as Eckert says. I guess the lesson is that there are many points of disagreement about numerous details. I don't want to give the impression that I think Eckert is "wrong" about these things (although there are other details about which he is almost certainly wrong), since even academic historians quite frequently differ on the details. But academic historians rarely cite Eckert as a source — they often regard his books as novels, not history — so we probably should take the same cautious approach in Wikipedia. --Kevin Myers 04:10, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Not to belittle academic historians, but any time two of them disagree, at least one of them is wrong. ;-) I do thank you for the recommendations, though. I will say that I found Eckert's novelishness a bit off-putting at first, but not too off-putting having come to him directly from James Flexner's Lord of the Mohawks; "Gravely sipping Johnson's rum, watching every change of the white man's expression, Hendrick let drop a question about white policy toward his nation which he did not understand" (p. 39). Incidentally, Flexner has Brant (Sagayeeanquarashtow) as Joseph Brant's grandfather (properly, step-grandfather), not Hendrick. I suspect Flexner may be Eckert's source in this. Mwanner 13:55, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Kelsay's book is excellent, though it's a challenge using it to work on the article. Thanks again for the reference. Mwanner June 28, 2005 13:00 (UTC)

You're welcome, and I'm very happy you're working on the article. If you're ambitious, still needed in the article is some mention of his wives and children, the tragic death of his son by Brant's own hand, Brant's perhaps revolutionary efforts at creating pan-tribal unity, and Brant's work as mediator in the Northwest Indian War — and whatever else you find is important. --Kevin Myers June 28, 2005 13:21 (UTC)

I have made a stab at covering your suggestions, though much more could be done. In particular, I added a link to the Northwest Indian War, though it mentions Brant not at all. I hope to get back to this at some point, but I'm afraid it won't be any time soon. -- Mwanner June 28, 2005 17:49 (UTC)

A few weeks ago 24.29.207.144 changed the birthplace of Brant and left an edit summary saying: Akron is not near the Ohio River, but rather, on the banks of the Cuyahoga River. I am fairly sure that this page had the two names mixed up. He was born in Ohio, on the banks of the Cuyahoga River. Does anyone know for sure that this is correct, or is it extrapolation based on general data? I'd prefer that the article stated generally that he was born near Akron and the Ohio River rather than guestimating a location. --NormanEinstein June 28, 2005 13:48 (UTC)

Kelsay has John Norton, Brant's secretary, saying that he was born "at Cuyahoga, meaning either a village at the mouth of the Cuyahoga River (site of present Cleavland, Ohio), or somewhere along that stream..." I think the present, vague "on the banks of the Cuyahoga River" is, therefore, appropriate. -- Mwanner June 28, 2005 17:54 (UTC)

Great work on this article, Mwanner! When we get time, I hope we can all get this article to "featured" status. --Kevin Myers July 1, 2005 04:28 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words. I would have done more, but I ran out of time on an interlibrary loan, and working from memory just doesn't cut it for me anymore! I should just break down and buy the book, I suppose. Mwanner July 2, 2005 01:59 (UTC)

Contents 1 First Nation/American Indian 2 Molly - Sister of Joseph Brant 3 his surname is Brant??? 4 Alternate spellings 5 Jacob Brant 6 American Revolution 7 Legacy Questions

[edit] First Nation/American Indian

I had trouble with the First Nation addition when I first saw it, but I'm reverting back to it because the last third of his life was spent in Canada. It's too bad there is not a real useful term that encompasses Canadian and American Indians-- after all, the boundary between the countries was imposed from without. As I write this, though, I realise that the order should be different. Will fix. -- Mwanner | Talk 14:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I've never thought previously that "American Indian" means "American" as in "U.S. of America"; I always thought it meant "American" as in "the Americas". However, I understand that some people think of the term differently. In any event, we need to think of a different wording, because, while his people may have been a First Nation, he individually was certainly not "the most well-known ... First Nation of his generation". - Nat Krause 19:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It does mean the Americas, but that includes all of the Americas. Tell you what, though, I've seen just enough of the morass of arguments on the application of different terms for the Indians of the Americas to know that I don't want any part of the discussion. If you want to change it back, be my guest, I won't revert it. Cheers! -- Mwanner | Talk 20:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

The terminology is particularly tricky for American Indians like Brant, since Indians of his era living along the U.S-Canadian border apparently have to be sorted by Wikipedians into First Nations and Native Americans, two terms that did not exist in his time. Whatever terminology is used, I think it should be made clear to readers in articles like this that "First Nations" and "Native Americans" are modern terms. Perhaps something like the wording I used in the War of 1812 article would do the trick: Brant was perhaps the most well-known North American Indian of his generation—people now generally called Native Americans in the United States and First Nations in Canada. A little clumsy perhaps, but it gets the information across. After this initial disambiguation, the default term in the article itself, and for historical articles like this one which span the U.S.-Canadian border, should really be "American Indian", since the other terms are anachronistic and (to some) country-specific. --Kevin Myers | on Wheels! 13:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Works for me-- it's not too clumsy, though it's too bad it has to come so early in the article. Still, I think it works. I've made the change. -- Mwanner | Talk 19:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Molly - Sister of Joseph Brant

About Molly Brant, sister of Joseph Brant, it says that Johnson married her. But on Johnson's article, it says he "never" married. What's the truth?

Actually, the Molly Brant article says they had a common-law marriage. So, they didn't get married according to European customs, but by Eastern Woodlands Indian standards, they were married because they behaved as if they were. The Johnson article might lead one to believe that Johnson was cheating on her, but monogamy was also not a strict custom of Eastern Woodlands Indians. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 03:30, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] his surname is Brant???

just wondering guys does anyone know how he came to be known as "Joseph Brant"? And how did his family get the surname "Brant" from? 172.145.65.148

Well the article says his mother married Brant Canagaraduncka, so he probably took his step-father's first name as a surname. Adam Bishop 06:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate spellings

I added Tyandaga. I'm from Burlington, and that is the correct spellings for one of the districts of Burlington, as well as one of our library branches.

[edit] Jacob Brant

Genealogy.rootswebb gave Jacob Brant's birth and death dates 1786-1847. In the article it states in section Later years, legacy, some descendants Generations 2-4. Jacob (1786-1947), that is 161 years which must be a typo. I changed the death date per the above source.--Dakota 06:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Revolution

I was just wondering that why did he choose to support the British over the Americans during the war. I need some help for school. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.86.52.18 (talk) 02:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Brant chose the side he thought would win and would most benefit him and his people. By the time of the war, the Mohawks had lost most of their land to the British colonies. When the war broke out, Brant happened to be in London to discuss past land grievances, and British officials told him that if the Iroquois abandoned their traditional neutrality and supported the Crown, they would be rewarded with a favorable land agreement. Brant returned home and encouraged the Iroquois to support the British, although most Oneidas and Tuscaroras sided with the Americans.

It didn't work out the way the British had promised, of course. The British lost the war and signed away all of the native land to the Americans. In Brant's words, the British "sold the Indians to Congress." According to historian Barbara Graymont, "The Indians were manipulated and exploited by the British government to serve the purposes of the empire; they were encouraged to cede their land in time of peace, pressured to become military allies in time of war, ignored in the treaty of peace...."

Not that Brant necessarily made a wrong or naive choice. Like other native leaders, he had few good options when trying to shape events far beyond his control. —Kevin 16:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy Questions

I have a relative (first name is Brant, carried down thru the years they say from Joseph Brant) who is supposedly a decendant and has heard that their is a scholarship of sorts assocatied with being a decendant of Joseph Brant. Has anyone heard of this??? Denise Friedmann 68.81.85.82 16:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)