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Contents 1 Comments 1.1 any reason for omitting its Arabic? 1.2 Historical Sources 1.3 Armenian 1.4 RV vandalism 1.5 Doner kebab

[edit] Comments

[edit] any reason for omitting its Arabic?

The word is basically the same in both Arabic, Turkish and Persian [1]. Are there any sober arguments for omitting the former? Bertilvidet 22:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

And it is also the same in Greek: κεμπάπ:). the point is if all names should be included or if only the first, the original one. Hectorian 22:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If you ask me I would include all the relevant names Alex Bakharev 22:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no ojection in either case: i would not mind seeing only the original one, nor would i mind seeing all the relevant names included. what i would mind would be a selection of names, based on (for a food article!) God knows which criteria:) Hectorian 22:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, which one do you happen to think is the "original" one. Etymological references differ whether to claim the original is Turkish, Arabic, Persian or include two or all three. Bertilvidet 08:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know... But i guess there must be a source reliable than the others. this one shall be used and the other names to be moved further down. or, if all are reliable enough, all should be including in the lead. Hectorian 08:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, as the etymologists not are sure about the orgins of its word, we should reflect that rather than just pointing to one of the languages. Thus the article must mention all three languages, namely Arabic, Persian and Turkish. Seems that we agree?? Bertilvidet 09:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Btw, the Turkish Language Coucil does not claim the word (kebap) to be Turkish, but to be Arabic. [2] Bertilvidet 09:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If even the Turkish Language Council does not calim the word to be turkish, we should not include it. we should only include the two langauges that seem to raise a dispute on the word's origins. i mean, if there are reliable sources claiming that it is arabic and others stating it is persian, then, i see no reason to include languages in which it definately is a borrowing. by taking a look in the list, i see that the word is used in many languages, and, had the article not been protected, i would have included the greek as well:). Hectorian 11:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical Sources

In an effort to resolve this controversy, I provide below different opinions on the origins of kebab and its name. Note that Wikipedia WP:NPOV policy is to include all significant opinions whenever facts are disputed.

1. OED: Arab. kabāb (also in Pers. and Urdu), in same sense.

From The Food Timeline:

2. "Kebab. A dish consisting basically of small pieces of meat threaded on to skewers and grilled or roasted. It originated in Turkey and eventually spread to the Balkans and the Middle East. The name is a shortened form of the Tukish sis kebab, sis meaning skewer and kebab meaning roast meat." ---Larousse Gastronomique, completely revised and updated [Clarkson Potter:New York] 2001 (p. 646)

3. "Sis Kebabi...It is said that shish bebab was born over the open-field fires of medieval Turkic soldiers, who used their swords to grill meat. Given the obvious simplicity of spit-roasting meat over a fire, I suspect its genesis is earlier. There is iconographical evidence of Byzantine Greeks cooking shish kebabs. But surely the descriptions for skewering strips of meat for broiling in Homer's Odyssey must count for an early shish kebab." ---A Mediterranean Feast, Clifford A. Wright [William Morrow:New York] 1999 (p. 333)

4. "Kebab. Now an English culinary term usually occurring as sis (or shish) kebab, meaning small chunks of meat grilled on a skewer. Shashlik is a term which means essentially the same a sis kebab but belongs essentially the same as sis kebab but belongs to the countries of the Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia)...The word kebab has an interesting history. In the Middle Ages the Arabic word kabab always meant fried meat. The compendious 14th-century dictionary Lisdan al'Arab defines kabab as tabahajah, which is a dish of fried pieces of meat, usually fininshed with some liquid in the cooking. The exact shape of the pieces of meat is not clear. However, since there was a separate class of dish called saraih, which consisted of long and thin strips of meat, and since most modern dishes called kebab call for more or less cubical chunks, it seems likely that kabab was chunks rather than strips. Kabab/kebab is not a common word in the early medieval Arabic books, because the Persian word tabahajah (diminutive of tabah) provided an alternative which was considered more high-toned. It is because of this original meaning that one still finds dishes such as tas kebab (bowl kebab) which are really stews. In the Middle Ages the Arabic word for grilled meat was not kebab but siwa. It was only in the Turkish period that such words as sishkebab or seekh kebab made their appearance. However all this may be, the custom of roasting meat in small chunks on a skewer seems to be very ancient in the Near East. Part of the reason for this may have to do with the urban nature of the civilization there. ..in the Near East they would go to a butcher's shop and buy smaller cuts. However, a more important reason, and the basic one, was surely that fuel has long been in short supply in the Near East..." ---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 429)

5. "Kebab. Roasting marinated meat on spit while basting with fat is described both in Sanskrit and Tamil literature...the kabab has a distinct identity as a dainty from the Middle East which is particularly favoured by the Muslims in India...Ibn Battuta records chicken kaba being served by royal houses during the Sultanate period. Even common folk at kabab and paratas for breakfast, and in Mugal India a few centuries later it was still naan and kabab." ---A Historical Dictionary of Indian Food, K. T. Achaya [Oxford University Press:Delhi] 1998 (p. 115)

nadav 07:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

6. То, что шашлык - это важная составная общетюркской кухни, и азербайджанской в частности - это неопровержимо. И даже В.В.Похлебкин, который уже имеет опыт "армянизирования" о шашлыке, пишет: "что касается слова "Шашлык", несмотря на его тюркское происхождение...". Да, правда часто бывает горькой, но иногда ее заменить сладкой ложью бывает невозможно. Обычно, всему новому название дает создатель. Поэтому именно в названиях и надо искать ключи к происхождению. Слово шашлык, безусловно, имеет тюркское происхождение. И сегодня почти в каждой азербайджанской семье имеется шиш (шампор), на котором жарят шишлик или кабаб (в разных районах готовят "шишлик", "шишкабаб" или "кабаб"). Слово "шиш" означает острие, возвышенность и т.п. Например, "уджу шиш агадж" (кол с заостренным концом), "шиш даг" (гора с заостренной вершиной) и т.п. Приставка "~лик" указывает на применимость к чему-либо (эквивалент в русском – слово “для”). Например "этлик хейван" (животное на мясо), "инлик jун" (шерсть для ниток) и т.д. В древнетюркском литературном памятнике "Книга Деде Горгуда" читаем: "Гоjун вергил - бу оглана шишлик олсун" ("Давайте баранов - пусть этому парню на шишлык будет"). (T.Amiraslanov, IRS Magazine, "Explanation to some errors", #4-13, 2002, in Russian) --AdilBaguirov 11:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian

In the quote above, it is written that it is called Shashlik in Armenia (and Georgia, Azerbaijan). Not so. Shashlik is the word in Georgia, and I don't know what they use in Azer, but I suspect Russians call it Shashlik as well, from the Georgian. In Armenia, on the article page, there needs to be more than simply "Khorovadz" for Armenia. It should explain that Khorovadz is the name for solid chunks of mean (or vegetables like entire tomatoes, eggplants or peppers), while Kebab means ground meat - pork is what you'd normally get unless otherwise specified. --RaffiKojian 06:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RV vandalism

This page gets a lot of vandalism by IP anons and new users, who make weird entries. I reverted the last one, but perhaps placing permanent semi-protection would help reduce vandalism? --AdilBaguirov 10:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There isn't that much vandalism, they wont protect it yet. Artaxiad 18:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

considering how many IP anons change the page, admins should semi-protect this page to make lives easier for everyone. --AdilBaguirov 19:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah a few more will do it, there isn't that much activity I'm sure they'll reject it. Artaxiad 04:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doner kebab

Hi Artaxiad,

Firstly, may I learn the reason why you removed the second sentence and all the associated references in the etymology section? Besides, the second sentence that you removed takes its reference from the first source, namely Oxford companion to food, not from the dictionaries.

Secondly, may I learn the reason why you removed the Doner kebab section? There are also a separate section suc as Shish kebab, and lots of secondary sections as well. If the editors improve the article there can be more main sections. But why removing the section instead of improving the article and adding more sections?

Chapultepec 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Doner kebab is not notable enough to be there. Secondly shish kebab defiantly is. Doner is not well-known, in some countries it may. The other references were removed for the lack of description provided. Artaxiad 09:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi again, let's finish the etymology section at first. I repeat, the second sentence you removed was referenced to the book "Oxford companion to Food", not to the dictionaries. And I think it's credible enough. Chapultepec 09:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

As for the second one, you may be right, shish kebab is more notable and more widely known than doner kebab. But doner kebab is also largely notable in Europe and is known in the US, and as donair in Canada etc. So, we can place shish kebab in the first place as it is more notable, and the latter in the second.

And I repeat, there are also a separate section, and lots of secondary sections as well. If the editors improve the article there can be more main sections. But why removing the section instead of improving the article and adding more sections? --Chapultepec 09:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)