Talk:Kolyma
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[edit] Back to normal
Pleased to see this morning that the article has regained its normal status with the removal of the NPOV and need-for-references notices. Now we can get on with more constructive content building. For the time being, I think ==Kolyma== can continue to cover the river, region and Gulag history - unless anyone thinks otherwise.--Ipigott 08:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV status
I came to this page with no preconceived ideas. I saw the NPOV notice at the top and also the requirement for footnotes. I therefore decided to investigate the claims made and also look for counter arguments and evidence of a possible alternative interpretation. On this basis, I have undertaken a comprehensive edit of this article, in the light of other related articles, e.g. Gulag, other language pages, and links. In this connection, I have posted messages on the pages of Guinness man and of others involved in the hope that there would be some kind of reaction. I have also sent emails to some outside experts on the matter. Unfortunately, the only other contribution to the Kolyma page I am aware of has been a minor spelling change by Chris the speller. I have also followed up on the claim that there are no authentic references. I believe I have now provided all that can reasonably be expected - and certainly more than you can find on other pages relating to prison camps. Perhaps someone can tell me how I can have this page officially reviewed or how the warnings about neutrality and refernces at the top of the article can be removed. Ther may be a procedure that is not listed in the guidance. If I have no response on this within 24 hours, I will follow the guidance I have found and create new pages as follows:
- A page on the Kolyma river (similar to those in most of the other language versions. (This will probably be the Kolyma (River) page.)
- A page on the Kolyma region (today's economy, industries, climate, relations with Alaska, future potential.
- A page on the Kolyma Gulag (with more or less the same philosophy as the Polish page on this but with much more detail and references.
This may not be the optimal solution as there is also a notice on the Kolyma page that it is part of the Russian history project! I would like to point out that in Europe the Kolyma issue has reached a high level of attention and importance. The former Danish foreign minister, Mogens Lykketoft, - who has had years of experience with Russian policy - is about to launch a cross-party initiative to support the creation of a documentation centre/archive on Kolyma and the Soviet forced labour prison camps. When people go to our English-language Kolyma site and see the notice on lack of neutrality, it makes a very weak case for the reliabilty of Wikipedia. I hope there will be some reactions to this today or tomorrow. --Ipigott 00:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
sorry is the map isn't managed properly (could be shared with french wiki ?), I'm quite novice with wikimages --Chouchoupette 22:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
The article in its current form does not have a single specific reference to back up some pretty harsh claims and accusations. It is full of non-encyclopedic language ("slave labor", "mercilessly terrorized", "particularly sadistic"), and is mostly written from a dissident's point of view. Guinness man 13:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
You seem to equate being dissident to being a liar or traitor. People brought to Kolyma were often not even dissidents, but loyal citizens and even committed communists deported because of Stalin's tyranny, paranoia, and need for slave labor. That's the naked truth history has revealed to those who have heart to accept it. I can understand some terms could be moderated, but millions perished there in twenty years of cold hell. What way should this article be written, from the viewpoint of a guard dog, maybe? Basil II 23:07, 30 October 2006 (CET)
- And you seem to be putting words in my mouth. I don't equate dissidents with anything. If you think that Wikipedia must reflect only dissidents' and guard dogs' viewpoints, maybe you should stay away from editing. "Millions perishing" is a very trivial lie, even the current article cites lower actual numbers. Guinness man 23:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of accuracy, this being an encyclopeida and all, there need to be 2 Kolyma pages (and a disambiguation page to differentiate). One page is this, which does of course need to be fixed in the aforementioned ways (and I am very new and not the one to do it); the other would be about Kolyma as a region, its cultures, et cetera. Certainly in common usage the word "Kolyma" usually refers to the area's gulag system, but first and foremost, the word refers to a geographical area. Akulina
- Correct, support Dysmorodrepanis 01:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
"Russian dissident historian Roy Medvedev has aptly compared the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz." - I have outcommented "aptly" as the Kolyma camps may rival Auschwitz in death toll, cruelty of staff, conditions etc, BUT prisoners were all but limited to able-bodied adults and at least had a token chance to get out again alive, whereas A. was built for killing of people first and for economical gains almost as an afterthought. Dysmorodrepanis 01:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I cannot believe the OP of this section questions the brutality of the Kolyma camps or of the harshness of the region. Before making such crass misjudgements, may I suggest some basic research into the GULAG aspect of this region and its central role in developing the area (Magadan in particular).
Three excellent books on the subject by people who were there:
"Man is Wolf to Man" by Janusz Bardach
"Withing the Whirlwind" by Eugenia Ginzburg
"Kolyma Tales" by Varlam Shalamov
You will find that terms such as "slave labor", "mercilessly terrorized", "particularly sadistic" are indeed factual when applied to events in Kolyma and therefore, in this context, are indeed encyclopedic. And you don't have to be a "dissident" to see evil in the Soviet camp system.
[New remarks start here]
I am the article's author. There are SIX different sources listed at the end of the article. Therefore, I fail to understand the "no references tag" that has been put on the piece. The article is a severe condensation of my Masters Thesis on Kolyma. If the person objecting to the "lack of references" would prefer, I will upload the entire 100+ pages of the thesis, references and all. I am prepared to back up EVERY SINGLE FACT that I have laid out in the article. I hasten to add that I know as much about Kolyma as any person in the Wikipedia system, with the exception of someone who was a prisoner there. Yosef 52 05:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- If you are looking for any credibility, then perhaps you should refrain from using a very loud word "factual" when it comes to works of "literary investigation", as Solzhenitsyn himself referred to his book. Although eyewitness accounts are certainly very important, they are definitely not the only and by far not the most objective source of information. If you record testimony of 227 inmates of, oh, say, Abu Ghraib or Guantánamo Bay, they will certainly tell you that those places are hell on Earth, the most mercilessly terrorized, particularly sadistic and the most unimaginably cruel human-run organizations, and the whole US concentration camp system is "evil", as, they would probably claim, are the US themselves. Would you write an encyclopedia article that entirely consists of these "facts"? Guinness man 23:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] References and authenticity
I tend to agree with the author on the authenticity of his account. What might perhaps be useful are specific references from original documents rather than books which give an overall account of events. The problem is that many of them will no doubt be in Russian (or even German or Korean) and will require translation. I do believe, however, that this would be a worthwhile enterprise. You may be interested to know that there was a feature on Kolyma in Denmark's respected newspaper Weekend Avisen - www.weekendavisen.dk entitled Det hvide krematorium written by Jesper Vind-Jensen. He provides additional references including the 1995 Russian documentary film Kolyma and accounts by author Jens Alstrup of his cycle trip to Kolyma in 1997 when he spoke to some of the former prisoners. I'll try to bring some of this into the article in the next few days.Ipigott 11:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Great Job, Ipigott! Fantastic work. I am indebted to you for your very careful and scholarly additions and editing.Yosef 52 19:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
