Talk:Mairéad Farrell

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Contents 1 Use of "terrorist" 2 Anon Edit Details 3 Sources Required 4 Removal 5 Photos 6 Hunger strike 7 Second Term of Active Service (1986-1988) 8 Evacuation 9 Being Objective 10 Some thoughts 11 Whitewashing 12 Early Life Section 13 No Revisionism 14 Volunteers required 15 Picture

[edit] Use of "terrorist"

Wikipedia has a policy of not using the term "terrorist" in any article other than the terrorism article.GiollaUidir 16:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anon Edit Details

I changed 'The operation came to a horrific end with all three of them brutally gunned down, in cold blood on the Spanish-Gibraltar border by members of the SAS on 6 March 1988 in fiercly contested circumstances', which is clearly highly NPOV, to 'The operation ended when all three were shot dead, despite being unarmed, on the Spanish-Gibraltar border by members of the SAS on 6 March 1988 in fiercely contested circumstances'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.94.6.28 (talk • contribs).

The shooting was not at the border. --Gibnews

[edit] Sources Required

Please provide sources for the following: Imprisonment(1976-1986) Within Armagh Jail beatings, sensory deprivation and other forms of torture were routine. Each morning inmates were required to "slop-out" their chamber pots, which would almost always entail running a gauntlet of abusive guards—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wegggie (talk • contribs).

For beatings and harrassment: [1]

• Abusive Guards: [2]
• Gauntlet: British Criminology Conference—The preceding unsigned comment was added by GiollaUidir (talk • contribs).

The first source is not neutral and can only labelled as POV if added to the article. The second source with quote 'Gauntlet' is about the Maze and doesn't discuss conditions in Armagh. In any event the underlying cause of the dirty protest was the clampdown on the display of paramilitary regalia (as suggested by the INLA website link you kindly provided). Wiki guidelines state that any editor can remove unsourced material, so I suggest this is revisited. Weggie 22:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

This needs a source

Do not stand at my grave and weep,

I am not there I do not sleep,

Do not stand at my grave and cry,

When Ireland lives I do not die.

A woman's place is not at home,

The fight for freedom it still goes on,

I took up my gun until freedoms day,

I pledged to fight for the I.R.A.

In Armagh jail I served my time,

Strip searches were a British crime,

Degraded me but they could not see,

I'd suffer this to see Ireland free.

Gibraltar was the place I died,

McCann and Savage were by my side,

I heard the order so loud and shrill,

Of Thatchers voice, said shoot to kill.

Do not stand at my grave and weep,

I am not there I do not sleep,

Do not stand at my grave and cry,

When Ireland lives I do not die. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Weggie (talk • contribs).

Yes, Mary, blowing up an army band in Gibraltar is going to 'free' Ireland. Well done. Very brave of you. Good grief, where do these people come from? Every Irishman I've ever met has been a perfectly well-adjusted and decent individual. Ah well, I guess every culture has its pet menagerie of nutters.

[edit] Photos

A picture of her would be a nice way of filling out what is a fairly bare article (on what is sadly a half-lived life), and the long-term political repercussions. For instance, Fr. Denis Wilson's talks with Gerry Adams began after these killings, and were among the first serious backroom discussions that led to the Good Friday Aggreement. Fergananim 16:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps a picture of some of the school children from catholic school where the bomb was to be planted, who grew up with arms and legs and lead normal lives because of the vigilance of the security services ...

--Gibnews

That too. Sadly so many did not because many of her comrades were more successful, usually on their parents but, as we say at Omagh, on children too. Fergananim 19:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

There are photos here: http://irelandsown.net/armaghwomen.html but the site is copyright, so we'd need to write for permission. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hunger strike

I've added info on the 1980 hunger strike in Armagh prison, quite an important part of Farrell's carreer. Contorebel 31 August 2006

[edit] Second Term of Active Service (1986-1988)

This title seem to imply that the Provisional IRA is or was a legitimate military force. It is not, nor has it ever been. It is a murderous, terrorist body responsible for the deaths of many innocents.

I am changing this title to 'Second Period of Terrorist Activity'.

I think this quite reasonable, considering the woman in question was attempting to cause explosions with the intent to kill bandsmen of the British Army.

-- 82.39.87.139

The term 'active service' is quite clear, the word 'terrorist' is only appropriate when its a direct quote, rather than an expression of (your) opinion. The page needs to be factual and avoid emotional references to murdering bastards gunned down by the evil British imperialist Thatcher.

--Gibnews 09:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the above statement: "The term 'active service' is quite clear". The term 'active service' is not at all clear. Who or what was Mairéad Farrell serving besides a proscribed terrorist organisation (the Provisional IRA)?

Indeed, I quite agree that articles must be impartial, accurate and above all, factual. In this instance, the rest of the article supports the use of the word 'terrorist'! It clearly states: "[The European Court of Human Rights] also ruled that the three had been engaged in an act of terrorism". Is it unreasonable then, to call Mairéad Farrell a terrorist? A vehicle in her charge was discovered with 150 lbs of Semtex and 200 rounds being used as improvised shrapnel!

The use of the word 'terrorist' is not 'my opinion' as the above user suggests. Far from being my opinion alone, this view was upheld by the ECHR! She was also a member of a Proscribed Terrorist Organisation (The PIRA is described as a terrorist organisation by the governments of the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom, the United States, Spain, Germany and Italy).

I was not aware of the Wikipedia policy on the use of the word 'terrorist'. However, I maintain that the subtitles 'First Term of Active Service(1975-1976)' and 'Second Period of Active Service (1986-1988)' are both misleading and terminologically specious.

They beg the question, 'active service to whom?'. Since the Provisional IRA is not a legitimate or legal force, the subheadings I mention above must be changed. My suggestion is; 'First Term of Paramilitary Activity'.

--unsigned by 82.39.87.139 cable.ubr03.jarr.blueyonder.co.uk

Any semi-intelligent reader should be able to infer with whom her period of "active service" was with. I see no reason to change it to "terrorist" or "paramilitary".GiollaUidir 13:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It was significant that the IRA announced its people were on 'active service' although nobody has suggested they were on holiday in Spain and popped over the border for some cheap whisky. Their target was soldiers armed only with with brass instruments. However, although it was and remains quite legal to shoot terrorists in Gibraltar, that the IRA was a proscribed organisation is debatable. Lets keep things factual and not insert emotional language for the sake of it. --Gibnews

[edit] Evacuation

I removed

However, despite the apparent belief that Farrell and her cell-members had left a bomb primed and ready to be detonated, no attempt was made to evacuate the area surrounding the bomb until several hours after the shootings at the border. Those who allege that the shootings were part of a "shoot-to-kill" execution have taken this as evidence that the SAS never intended to arrest the unit.

Firstly the reference cited does not actually display anything to support that view.

Secondly, there is the question of exactly WHO would be evacuated on a Sunday as the bomb was in front of a school and a bank neither of which were occupied on the SUNDAY. I recall that after the shooting, which I just missed, that the area was cordoned off and a controlled explosion took place, which would be the proper action. Although there may have indeed been a policy of 'shoot to kill' not evacuating people who were not there is not proof of it, even to Guardian readers. --Gibnews 07:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Surely what you've just said about the bank and school makes the 'shoot-to-kill' theory more likely rather than less? Consider: The SAS have been told that there is a highly dangerous IRA ASU on Gibraltar who have left a car-bomb ready to detonate and all they have to do is "press the button" on their remote detonator to set it off. So after shooting 3 members of the team at the border and failing to find any remote detonator surely the logical thing to do would be to think that there might be another member(s) of the team still on the loose with the detonator. So the area around the bomb should at the very least be sealed off. Yet, no effort was made "until several hours after the shooting" (according to the Guardian anyway).GiollaUidir 12:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I just missed the shooting in the street and saw the aftermath. Going home I monitored the police radio channels, a friend with a telescope was watching the scene outside the bank from a safe distance; the area was promptly sealed off. we communicated using a radio similar to the one pictured.

The only people who might have required evacuation could not have been extracted without exposing them to more danger than staying indoors away from the windows. The police were indeed looking for a fourth member of the team.

If the The Guardian report says that, its bollocks. Indeed police car which went past the suspects with its siren blaring had been instructed to go to the bank to assist with sealing off the area, prior to the shooting.

--Gibnews 14:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, I (and the Guardian lol) stand corrected.GiollaUidir 14:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It is, after all, a 'bloody awful newspaper' according to Phil the Greek :) (good online news archive though) --Gibnews

[edit] Being Objective

I don't see the need to introduce the term 'Volounteer' as these groups are unofficial organisations which cannot employ conscription - the only point seems to glorify the participants rather than objectivly describing their actions and those of the security services. If that stands, then it is necessary to introduce some wording to balance it pointing out that the PIRA is a proscribed terrorist organisation and in keeping with the policy of not using the T-word the term is 'Illegal paramilitary group' which is less emotive and totally accurate. --Gibnews

That is exactly the point, you are trying to promote a POV that she was in a military organisation.

The PIRA is not a legitimate military force its a proscribed paramilitary organisation. In practice it does not matter whether people attempt blow up kids for money or at no charge, its still wrong. Fancy titles and language do not legitimise such things. --Gibnews

So is the fact that its a proscribed paramilitary organisation and that its members came to Gibraltar to engage in an act of terrorism, or are you suggesting they came here to feed the monkeys ?

The target was the area where the band (armed with dangerous musical instruments) assembled in front of Bishop Fitzgerald middle school. If you want names, write and ask for a class list at the time. In relation to 'research' I've looked at things carefully, interviewed witnesses and people who would not talk openly about what happened. I've made measurments and know a lot more about the event than most, and was there at the time, so would like to keep this entry factual and balanced.

No, they were not murdered.

I have no liking for foreigners who come to my country to murder me and my fellow Gibraltarians. Their shooting was totally legal, and remains so, visitors take note. --Gibnews 11:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The British army came to Gibraltar in 1704, and have defended us against the Spanish and more recently visiting Argentine and Irish terrorists, we don't seem to have a problem with them. Locally catholics, protestants, jews and arabs seem to get on fine. Perhaps if you thought about the future a bit more instead of the past you might too. Whatever, the tactic of going abroad to blow up kids in the road is not going to advance any causes, bring you any credit, or make friends. Neither is glorifying it. --Gibnews 18:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

And yet everything I have said is true and verifiable. --Gibnews

• We're discussing this at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) currently. Demiurge 22:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Could I suggest that the word Volunteer and the section about the PIRA being an illegal organisation are removed from the introduction. The convention/MOS for the word Volunteer and IRA ranking system are not yet finalised so this revert war could go on until such times as a policy is decided on.

By all means link to the Volunteer (republican) article at other points in this article where the word is used in the appropriate context but leave the into as it was before the current controversy started.GiollaUidir 14:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• I agree and will not edit this page until the issue is ironed out. One thing I would say it that it is not a rank per se but the official title given to all members irrespective of their position within the organisation. For example one could be the Quarter Master General and still be a Volunteer, in other words a member always retains the title of Volunteer. Beaumontproject 16:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• I agree too, however, dressing up criminal activity on my streets in the guise of 'military action' and giving terrorists fancy titles is offensive. --Gibnews
  • I think you are getting this article mixed up with one about the British Army Beaumontproject 17:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I don't think the British army did this. --Gibnews

• Children, this is neither the time nor the place for this debate.GiollaUidir 22:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some thoughts

I've spent some time adding and re-ordering things on this page; however I begin to wonder whether its strayed from the point of being an article about a person to one describing an event. As its now more thorough than the one about Operation Flavius or that TV documentary.

There is also a lack of a Gibraltar perspective on the event, thankfully unlike the USA or IRAQ its not everyday that people get shot on our streets, indeed this was the only occasion. Somewhere I have the newspapers of the day filed and will pull them out and review them.

However there is a reasonable balance at present and the existing content should not be lost in an attempt to push any particular POV.

--Gibnews 09:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it has grown pretty quickly but is still readable and generally accurate. :) If anyone has any time to do some serious improving of the article then the old peer review has plenty to be getting on with: Wikipedia:Peer review/Mairéad Farrell. GiollaUidir 17:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whitewashing

The introduction explained who Ms Farrell was and why she was killed, removing the reason is a cover-up to further a POV. The IRA stated after the incident that their people were 'on active service' The ECHR ruled they were engaged in an act of terrorism, so lets tell it like it is. --Gibnews 19:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - the article is out of balance at the moment Weggie 19:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

1. It was badly worded, 2. It shouldnt be in the intro, it is further information not intro stuff 3. the details of what happened are clearly outlined further in the article--Vintagekits 20:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits: People read Wikipedia to be informed and that is why we write things; The ONLY reason Ms Farrell merits an entry here is that she was killed whilst planting a bomb. Thats why its in the introduction. Its more important than who shot her. Take some time to reflect and because others do not agree with your POV does not mean we cannot be objective - and thats whats needed to write good articles. --Gibnews 15:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Gibnews, I know you focus almost soley on Gibraltar issue but to say something like "The ONLY reason Ms Farrell merits an entry here is that she was killed whilst planting a bomb" pretty much just shows your ignorance on the issue--Vintagekits 18:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

For all I know she was kind to animals. pressed flowers and her mother loved her - none of these things merit an entry in Wikipedia. However the reason she has prominence is because she was shot in Gibraltar, and that is directly due to her being here to plant a bomb. You seem to have a different view of reality which not good for anyone, especially yourself. That anyone is shot is a tragedy, that anyone feels the need to blow up bandsmen as a political act is worse and totally ineffective. Unlike Detroit, people getting shot on the street here is a very rare event and something we would rather had not happened, but to quote the conclusion of the dissenting justices of the ECHR

We consider that the use of lethal force in this case, however regrettable the need to resort to such force may be, did not exceed what was, in the circumstances as known at the time, "absolutely necessary" for that purpose and did not amount to a breach by the United Kingdom of its obligations under the Convention.

The inquest cost the Gibraltar taxpayer around 300,000 pounds, and the publicity was not positive. That, however, was cheap compared to the cost of the alternative, and people need to know what that was and it should not be whitewashed away.

As for 'ignorance of the issue' you were probably not even born at the time of the incident. I was on the spot.

--Gibnews 21:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early Life Section

The only reference is a blog which does not meet wiki standards for references (reputable source). Also, Bobby Storey, a living person seems to be accused of a criminal offence. Is this libel? Weggie 17:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not a blog. Good point, re Bobby Storey, I'll check it out.GiollaUidir 18:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, its not a blog from what I can see, looks like a webpage dedicated to people called Farrell.--Vintagekits 19:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Revisionism

There is NO dispute on why an PIRA cell were in Gibraltar, at the time the IRA stated they were on 'active service' - the inquest ruled they were lawfully killed whist in the process of planting a bomb and the ECHR review concluded they were engaging in an act of terrorism. Now is not a time to engage in revisionism and denial of purpose. The ECHR by a small majority critisised the UK for the use of lethal force to resolve the situation, but apart from that ruled that there was no doubt as to the purpose of the mission which thankfully failed.

Lets record what happened.

--Gibnews 23:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Volunteers required

Without wishing to get into a dispute over pseudo-military ranks, the following could be worded better: This required a large number of volunteers, so younger members such as Mairéad were required to participate.

--Gibnews

members would be fine in that context. Volunteer or Volunteers would be used when specifically referring to individuals but it is of to the "the three were members of the PIRA" if you are describing them in general terms.--Vintagekits 21:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you miss the point, someone who is required to do something is not a volunteer. How about ''This required numbers of people, so younger members such as Mairéad, were asked to participate. --Gibnews

Volunteer is the de facto rank for junior members, also no one was required to join the PIRA and they can freely leave at anytime--Vintagekits 00:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The use of required implies pressure to do something, and the original wording is bad because it gives the impression of coercion, whch goes against what you say above that ongoing membership and activity is a free choice. --Gibnews

Change "required" to "asked" perhaps?GiollaUidir 12:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I hacked it a bit to read better - my experience is asking people to stand around in the road with placards shouting where you certainly need their consent. More so for worse things one assumes. The SAS volunteer three times for what they do. --Gibnews 19:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Must admit I thought screen captures were acceptable, however the present image is awful, and copied from a dubious website. --Gibnews