Talk:Marion Zimmer Bradley

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Contents 1 Lesbian? 2 Feminist? 3 Huh? 4 Episcopalian? 5 Society for Creative Anachronism 6 litigation/settlement 7 Ghostwriter?

[edit] Lesbian?

Was MZB a lesbian or bisexual? Because she was married a few times. Or did she just have sympathy for the plight of lesbians in her writing? I'm a little confused, as she's listed under "Lesbian Writers" (as if she is a lesbian herself).

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According to this page:

http://www.nndb.com/people/068/000044933/

the marriage and divorce dates are different. What's going on with this?

I cannot see that the early Darkover novels are any less (or more) science-fictional than the later. Darkover was always a place that earthmen reached by spaceships and a place where psi-powers reached almost magical proportions. Cdixon 17:35, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Um... what's with 203.221.31.205 's fixation on the pedophilia thing? Granted the case against Breen seems legit, but the article's not about him. Mhari 01:26, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Falcons of Narabedla was actually first published in the May 1957 issue of Movie Magazine. The 1964 date often attributed to this work is the year Ace Books reprinted it. Falcons of Narabedla is MZB's first novel-length (127 pp in the Ace edition) submission to see print and as such is a surprisingly good read. In the Foreword to it (Ace edition) she cites the stories of Kuttner, Hamilton, and Brackett as being the primary inspirations for this novel. I am updating the main page's bibliography and descriptive section only as needed.

Actually, Falcons of Narabedla was published in Other Wolrds (see here for instance). This is confirmed by MZB herself in A Darkover Retrospective, published in the 1982 reprint of The Planet Savers/The Sword of Aldones by Ace Books. I've fixed this in the article, as well as the publication date of The Planet Savers (1958 in Amazing Stories). By the way, the bio on nndb is full of mistakes. Fabrice Rossi 13:28, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Feminist?

I find this rather odd. I'm just getting into MZB's works, enjoying them a great deal, but I can't find anything feminist about them. They correct a common imbalance in fantasy fiction - male-orientation - by bringing a balanced perspective to bear. What's feminist about that? Feminism is a political ideology, not an authorial style. Did MZB call her works "feminist" or is this just a label being applied after the fact by others? -a puzzled Kasreyn 05:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think MZB is considered feminist because of the contrast between her first works and the main orientation of sience-fiction and fantasy at this time. However, some of her novels (Darkover Landfall for instance) are far from feminist pamphlets. Those works received a lot of criticisms by feminist groups. MZB is also considered as gay friendly, but again some of her works (e.g., The Heritage of Hastur) were criticized by gay groups. In "A Darkover perspective" MZB never call herself feminist and tend to have strong words against feminist. Fabrice Rossi 08:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Yes, not all her writing is feminist but their is definitely a lot (which is not a bad thing!!!). She has a lot of short stories and random Darkover books with very strong female leads + more importantly story plots that raise up feminist issues. On a side note, it would be really nice to see this article reach a FA. I am going to start working on this next month (hopefully). (Blacksun 06:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC))

I agree on strong female characters and feminist issues, however I think you should reread Darkover Landfall for instance. The way Camilla Del Rey is depicted is quite unpleasing: she is for instance considered a freak because she doesn't want children. Here is a quote from "A Darkover perspective":

Darkover Landfall stirred up a furor because some outraged feminists objected to the stand I took in the book, that the survival of the human race on Darkover could, and should, be allowed to supersede the personal convenience of any single woman in the group. I have debated this subject ad nauseam in the fanzines, and I absolutely refuse to debate it again, but to those who refuse to accept the tenet "Biology is Destiny" I have begun to ask them to show me a vegetarian lion or tiger before they debate the issue further.

The first part is questionable, I guess (interestingly, the very same issue happens in Battlestar Galactica (new version, second season)), but the second part is clearly non feminist for many people. Fabrice Rossi 13:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that writing a realistic story makes her a non feminist. Their are dozens of other books where her female characters question the characterizing of females as "baby machines" in the society. However, darkfall landfall is a very unique story and rather believable in context. Their are scores of real life examples to support the plot. --Blacksun 08:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not about the story being realistic or not, but more about how much the author seems to agree with the idea that women are actually "baby machines" and that all of this boils down to "biology is destiny", which is to me a major stupidity and, of course, the very opposite position to feminism. Anyway, I think that a complete and neutral biography of MZB must include that her feminist label has been and is still debated. Fabrice Rossi 12:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ofcourse, any criticisms should be included. However, I still do not agree with you :P. I agree with bradley that under the special context of darkover landfall, one cannot hope to maintain the same standards of individual rights (feminist, or whatever else) as in an established society. I do not think that taking this stand makes one a non feminist. People who think that, in my opinion, live in a lala world and do not have the sole right to definie feminism. Finally, it is an entirely different (but significant) case that Bradley's work has probably done more for empowerement of women all over the world than most of her critics. Just my two cents. --Blacksun 21:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

What does it mean, "for a long time she refused to disclose the titles"? That makes no sense. Rocinante9 17:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It means that people didn't know which pseudonyms she wrote the books under, and what their titles were.--Prosfilaes 19:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Episcopalian?

Could someone please explain to me how this Christian hating feminazi could possibly be a Episcopalian?

FTR I rarely use the term feminazi but hey if the jackboot fits.....

[edit] Society for Creative Anachronism

"...name "Society for Creative Anachronism" was coined by science fiction author Marion Zimmer Bradley, an early participant, when the nascent group needed an official name in order to reserve a park for a tournament. In 1968 Marion Zimmer Bradley moved to Staten Island New York State and founded the Kingdom of the East, holding a tournament that summer to determine the first Eastern King of the SCA...". Perhaps a minor thing compared to her writing, but I was surprised to see to mention of it, the --Snori 02:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] litigation/settlement

I enjoy her works as well, but feel that her complicity on the ongoing molestation of at least several underaged boys needs to be acknowledged. She admitted her actions in sworn depositions that are available online. She went so far as to knowingly assist her husband Walter Breen procure victims (they applied for a foster care license and took in wayward boys for him to victimize). She thought her husband was impotent and did not consider him orally copulating a minor to be abuse, so long as the victim had the opportunity to refuse (these were 13 year old boys). It gets far worse. I suggest you read the depositions. The refusal of some of her fan accept this fact is disturbing. I refuse to ignore this behavior simply because I enjoy her work.Chief1 08:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Chief1 has been adding information about the Walter Breen issue. I've had to revert a couple of times because it is unsourced. Beyond that, most serious, concern, there is a secondary concern, which is undue weight.

On the first point: Any controversial information needs to be sourced, which means it needs to have a reference. (WP:V) However, not all references are equally useful. Legal documents -- all legal documents -- require significant interpretation and contextualization to understand them and describe them accurately. Depositions, for instance, are prepared in an adversarial context, which is not aimed at producing truthful, verifiable facts. I haven't seen any depositions cited as references on wikipedia; they certainly shouldn't be used as general sources for statements. Reading and understanding them requires such a high level of skill and understanding that it is, for all intents and purposes, a type of original research -- which is not acceptable for publishing in wikipedia. (WP:NOR)

Please note, I'm not stating anything about the truth of the allegations you're making. Just about whether they can be documented in a way that is appropriate for an encyclopedia.

Second, on the issue of undue weight. Undue weight is a part of the "neutral point of view" policy. (See WP:NPOV.) Her biography currently has four paragraphs, one of which is devoted to this issue. Most of the biography is basic biographical facts -- other family connections, degrees, birth, and death. Of the not-quite-utterly-basic biographical information, there is one sentence on Daughters of Bilitis, and a paragraph of three sentences on the Walter Breen issue. That's about 25% of the total biography. Doing more than that strikes me as disproportionate and therefore undue weight. And especially if we were to properly contextualize the statements that you keep putting in, with whatever the MZB people would want to say -- it would really start to take over the biography section, if not the entire article.

In short, this article must have a neutral point of view. It may not be written in order to get her fans to accept anything; this article is not written by, or for, MZB's fans. Rather, this is an encyclopedia article, about Marion Zimmer Bradley, to be read by fans, critics, people who have never heard of her, and so on. Trying to beef up a section in order to make a point to her fans of the seriousness of the issue is not the purpose of a biographical article.

Please do not keep reinserting the material until these issues have been discussed on the talk page.

--lquilter 16:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree on the undue weight issue; that usually seems to be used as an excuse to keep the material that interesting and controversial out of the article, because it outweighs the boring material. Furthermore, the entire page is about her and certainly calling the literary career section not biography seems a little absurd. It does need to be clearly cited though, and in the same manner as the rest of the article.

However, I find the line about Moira Stern "has spent most of her adult life in and out of mental hospitals" to be completely unacceptable. It's uncited, and it's prejudicial towards a living person, and even if it's purely true I don't think it's relevant to a one sentence biography.--Prosfilaes 17:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a reference to the Walter Breen situation on the front page that basically describes the incident. I'm happy to have discussion about the weight issue, but the material absolutely must be sourced, and depositions are not the right source for general descriptions of the issue. Anyway, if the editor can produce the actual cites, and better sources, let's work on editing. I'm happy to have more detail included of relevant scandals; I would just want to beef up the other stuff about her life too. --lquilter 01:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello, As I noted on your page, thanks for the comments. I am better versed in the facts of this case than wiki editing protocols and will apply your critique by adding the indicated citations.

In response to your other concern- This is not a "Walter Breen issue." It is a Marion Zimmer Bradley issue. She actively participated in procuring underaged boys for her husband throughout their marriage and afterwards as well. Disclosing that is hardly giving the matter undue weight. It is an important biographical issue resulting in civil litigation that plagued her for the rest of her life. The matter is thoroughly documented (as you will see).

Regarding no citation for the daughters mental illness-The statement that she is a professional singer and harpist is not cited either. In fact, Moira Breen/Sterns professional career consists of playing the harp Friday nights at a local Starbucks in Reno Nevada. She also has a self-published DVD available on her website and was edited out of one background/extra role in a feature film. The point is taken, however, and I will not insert the info with a citation. She is a sad legacy of a talented but very disturbed author.Chief1 01:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

While it would be nice to have citations for her career, it's considered very important to have cites on stuff that's negative and potentially considered libelous. Furthermore, the implication, which you just made more explicit, that mental illness is somehow the fault of the parents is one of the stigmas that people with mental illness fight and simply not true in most cases.--Prosfilaes 15:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ghostwriter?

I don’t know if there is a word for “writing from beyond the grave” but I came to the wikipedia as I was curious as to how, despite her death in 1999, MZB is credited with an entire series (Clingfire) and now has an upcoming series (Children of Kings trilogy) and two forthcoming novels (The Reluctant King and Thunderlord!). Are these unpublished MZB manuscripts, MZB outlines that the co-authors are filling out, or are publishers using her name as it sells books and MZB is now a pseudonym or perhaps a house name? Marc Kupper (talk) 02:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)