Talk:Michael Glinski

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Contents 1 Name & article title 2 Regarding Emax's statement in the edit history 3 To Piotrus 4 Violation of WP:3RR 5 Summary of an attempted compromise 5.1 Discision 6 Anon request 7 Michael Glinski had no relations to Poland 8 Michael Glinski distant relation to Peter the Great

[edit] Name & article title

Mikhail Lvovich was never known by his Polish name. He neither lived in Poland nor spoke Polish. In his native Ruthenian language his surname is Hlinski, but I can't move this page here for technical reason. Mikhail Glinsky is the second best option, as he spent 30 years living in Russia. So please stop vandalizing, deleting East Slavic partonimics, etc and do something constructive. Ghirlandajo 12:31, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's actually does not matter where he lived. The English name of the persone gets precedence over the national names. So, the name "Michał Gliński", being purely Polish cannot be used. --Gene s 13:15, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is an English wiki. English is the first language here. --Gene s 13:16, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

He was Marshal of PLC, offcours he spoked Polish, stop your russification.--Emax 13:40, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Never. He was marshal of Ruthenian Lithuania, which country was independant from Poland at that time. I am pretty surprised that you are not aware that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was formed in 1569, i.e., more than 60 years after Mikhail had left Lithuania. Please learn some history and then come back here. Ghirlandajo 13:56, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I used the term "PLC" because the dutchy was in personal union with Poland. Once again You are showing Your Russian nationalism, you should stop using Soviet-Era history books or moving out from the "Putinized" Russia :).--Emax 14:50, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Would you actually try to act in a civil way? Try to concentrate on the issue instead of engaging in personal attacks. Keep in mind, it takes only two editors to bring an arbitration case against you. --Gene s 14:58, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Im so frighten :)--Emax 15:08, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Please stop rv and dicuss it here. ATM the article mentions both his Polish and Russian (Lithuanian?) name. He was obviously of Lithuanian origin, so this name he should be mentioned. However, as Lithuania was at that time in a personal union with Poland (sidenote: Emax, the PLC was not created until 1569), he was surely known under his Polonized name - and if he was in fact Polonized, as majority of Lithuanian and Ruthenian szlachta (gentry) was, then the Polish name is more correct. What is Ruthenian Lithuania? I see no such article...I assume you refer to the south-eastern parts under control of Lithuania at that time? Still, it doesn't matter where he was born, but what name he used and under what he is mostly known today. Now, Mikhail Lvovich Glinsky is this a Lithuanian or a Russian name? I'd appreciate sources (preferably online) showing his disputed name. As Google search for MLG nets 0 results while search for MG nets 6 hits about THIS Michał Gliński plus some 40 others to check, I think that for the moment Michał Glińsky should be used as the main name. PS. I don't mind leaving the Russianised name in the parenthesis - if it is infact used anywhere. The only name which can be used first is either Lithuanian or Polish, and that will depend on which is more often used in the sources we can access (this is the usuall Wiki rule of thumb). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:04, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, English searches usually (not always) omit patronimics, so we have 21 google hits for "Mikhail Glinsky" and several more for "Mikhail Vasilyevich Glinsky" and other versions with patronimics. Secondly, the official language of Lithuania up to 1569 was Ruthenian language. The nobles started to be intensively polonized after that date. As I said before, the correct version would be the Ruthenian one. I believe the Ruthenian version is Mikhail (Lvovich) Hlinski, but I could not move the article to Mikhail Hlinski for technical reasons. Now I propose to move it to the more neutral (English-Ukrainian:) Michael Hlinski. Ghirlandajo 14:39, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The duchy nobles started to polonize since the Union of Krewo.--Emax 14:50, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

But they still were Eastern Orthodox, spoke Ruthenian (Old Ukrainian) and spelled their names in that language. Polish and Russian were equally alien to them. The case of Mikhail is quite different, because he lived for 30 years in Moscow and died there. Ghirlandajo 14:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The name should be Michael Glinsky or Michael Glinski both get pretty high number of google hits. These names are neither Russian, nor Polish derived. They should satisfy both parties. When you count hits, please count hits in English only. --Gene s 14:47, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Genes you are a lier, and you acting like Ghirlandajo.--Emax 15:02, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

I would agree to such a compromise (provided that both the Polish and Russian names are mentioned equally). I hope my voice will be heard, after all I started this article :) Halibutt 15:21, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

I vote for Michael Glinski / Helena Glinska. By the way what was the idea that he was "polonized"? What does this mean? Mikkalai 20:58, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

> While searching for Hlynsky I came across this article. There might be a third spelling;Dhlynsky 17:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/H/L/Hlynsky.htm

"Hlynsky [Hlyns’kyj]. Name of a Ukrainian noble family, descended from the Tatar noble Leksad (Oleksander), who was granted Poltava in 1430 by Grand Duke Vytautas the Great. He was also granted Hlynske near Romen (whence the family name). Prince Lev Hlynsky had four sons: Mykhailo Hlynsky; Bohdan, the vicegerent of Cherkasy and Putyvl who in 1493 destroyed the Turkish fortress of Ochakiv; Ivan (Mamai, d 1522), the palatine of Kyiv (1505–8); and Vasyl (d before 1522), the governor of Slonim and Berestia. They attained prominence at the turn of the 16th century through the influence of Mykhailo, who was close to Alexander Jagiellończyk. The brothers led an unsuccessful rebellion (1507–8) of dissatisfied landowners against Alexander's successor, King Sigismund I the Old, and fled to Moscow, where they received the title of boyar and large landholdings. There Vasyl's daughter Elena (Olena) married Grand Prince Vasilii III Ivanovich in 1526 and was a regent (1533–8). Vasyl's sons Yurii and Mikhail played an important role at the court of Tsar Ivan IV the Terrible, Elena's son."

[edit] Regarding Emax's statement in the edit history

User:Emax who did you call a lier in the edit history? --Gene s 15:02, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Just for the record since Emax's vandalism was removed:

(diff) (hist) . . m Michal Glinski; 17:55 . . Emax (Talk) (rv - you are a lier)

--Gene s 15:12, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You reverted the Russian biased version and call me a vandal.--Emax 15:19, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

I don't care what version it was. I reverted to the version essentially the same as it was at the time when the disagreement cropped up. Your edits dated 11:45, 1 Feb 2005, 11:41, 1 Feb 2005, 11:39, 1 Feb 2005, 14:21, 1 Feb 2005, and 13:37, 1 Feb 2005 GMT were basically reverts of edits by Ghirlandajo. You reverted him without leaving enything meaningful in the summary field and without writing anything in the Talk. Ghirlandajo, although he might have been wrong to revert, started the discussion. You also moved the pages (and as you might have noticed, I did not move them back). The summary is mandatory. A discussion of controversial changes is mandatory. By refusing to do either one you are acting as a vandal. Is this explanation sufficient for you? --Gene s 15:29, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And User:Emax: Read this Wikipedia:No personal attacks. --Gene s

Why do you not asking Ghirlandajo, why he changed the names and moved the article under the Russian name, without leaving enything meaningful in the summary. Why do you not call him a vandal?--Emax 15:44, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To Piotrus

Try to talk reason to Emax. Maybe he would actually listen to you. His participation maks any kind of compromise nearly impossible. His "lier" really was the last straw. --Gene s

Why do you simply reverted to the Russian biased version of Ghri...? Its not the first time that you both makes only problems.--Emax 15:12, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Piotrus said: "Please stop rv and dicuss it here." but you reverted to the Russian version, why? Dear Gene?.--Emax 15:30, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Violation of WP:3RR

I know a couple of admins are reading this. Please block User:Emax for violating the WP:3RR. --Gene s 15:36, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You are lying again. I have reverted 3 times :)--Emax 15:39, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

I count 4 reverts in the 24 hour period between 20:39, Feb 1, 2005 and 00:27, Feb 2, 2005: [1][2][3][4] The reverts are not 100% identical, but always reverting a certain information. I would block him myself, except i am also in a dispute with this user about similar topics. -- Chris 73 Talk 01:16, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

[5] this is not a revert !!! Since when edits of articles were caunted as reverts? Emax

[edit] Summary of an attempted compromise

So far, there is an apparent agreement over the first name to use - Michael. Any objections?

Yes, I object to Michael. I am pretty sure he never used that English name. Can you show me how many relevant hits Google has on Michael Glinski? Honestly, the order or Russian and Polish name rv war is silly...toss a coin or something. Or best, decide by Google War on the order. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:43, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Searching for "prince firstname glinski" (no quotes), English results only:

• Michal 62 [6]
• Michael 338 [7]
• Mikhail 36 [8]

Michael wins. Any more objections? English name is prefered for an English article. This is an English wiki, so English takes precedence. For example, nearly all Russian tsars are called by English names in this wiki, although they never used such names in real life. --Gene s 13:30, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, thats a good point. Unless sb provides convincing arguments against micheal, I guess we will stick with it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:49, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The following three options were given for his last name (searching google for "prince lastname", English pages only):

• Glinski 796 [9]
• Glinsky 382 [10]
• Hlinski 6 [11]

Looks like Glinski wins the google test. The national names should go in the alphabetical order of the language, i.e. Belarusian, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian. Any objections to this? --Gene s 05:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nope, that sounds good. Perhaps doing the same for the first name would solve our problem? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:43, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What are the Belarussian and Ukrainian names for him? Aren't they anachronysms? Halibutt 09:57, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

I included the B & U in the list for completeness. I am not proposing to add such names, but if someone wants to do it, the alphabetical list of languages should be used. --Gene s 10:29, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So let's stick to the article. Could you propose an exact header? Halibutt 13:33, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I'd also like to see the exact header with all those name variants before I agree completly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:49, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you ask me, then Michael Glinski. What else is possible as a compromise? --Gene s

Michael Hlinski, as I said before. There was not g sound in his native Ruthenian. --Ghirlandajo 14:11, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

English "H" is not what you want either. Anyway, we are not writing a transcription here. Pope Jan Paweł the Pole does not object being called Pope John Paul II. Mikkalai 18:57, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I meant a full text of the introductory sentence, like: "Blahblah (Klingon Blahblarh, Quenya Blablia) is a"... Halibutt 19:23, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Well, you got it right:

Michael Glinski (Polish: whatever; Russian: whatever cyrillic, whatever translit) ...

If Ghirlandajo wants to add Hlinsky also, then all the power to him. The order of alt translations should be the alphabetical order of language names. --Gene s 08:20, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is also the problem of moving this page to a better? name? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:49, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fine with me, Gene s. Halibutt 10:56, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I approve both Michael Glinsky and Michael Glinski as the header for this article - either of them is acceptable. Arrigo 09:49, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

OK. Since there are no further objections, please move the page to "Michael Glinski". Admin access is needed since the war happened there too. --Gene s 12:13, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discision

Page moved. Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 01:19, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anon request

Hi , My name is Michal Glinski and I was born in Poland. Since I was a kid my grandfather used to mention our family history and the story of Michal Glinski. He said that we are directly descended from him and that he researched our family tree through records in some library in Germany. I never got to see the family tree and any records and my grandfather has passed away before I had a chance to learn more. It is really fascinating to see some discussions about my ancestor online. I was wondering if any of the experts that contribute to this article would be able to help me find my family tree. I would like to trace the lineage between the present time and the time of Michal Glinski and maybe further back if possible. If you have any information please write me at countglinski@yahoo.com thank you Michal Glinski —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.128.66.19 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Michael Glinski had no relations to Poland

In time of Michael Glinski his family had no relations to Poland because Lithuania was an independent state. He was a "Russian" Orthodox Christian nobleman but term Russian in his time included East Slavic Orthodox Christians who later became identified as Russians, Ukrainians or Belorussians. A Polish family of nobility Glinsky claimed a descent from Princes of Glinsky. It is possible because after unification of Poland and Lithuania large number of Orthodox East Slavic nobility converted to Catholicism and Polonized.

[edit] Michael Glinski distant relation to Peter the Great

Throughout his Esmanovich mother Prince Glinski was related both to Ivan the Terrible and Peter I. A direct male descendants of Esmanovich family became Russian nobility family of Raevsky. One of Raevskys was a grandmother of Nataliya Kyrillovna Naryshkina, mother of Peter the Great.