User:Michalis Famelis/Greek and Turkish wikipedians board of cooperation
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This page was a proposal for a wikiProject that has now been withdrawn.
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[edit] Introduction
An awful lot of times Wikipedia is turned into a battleground by strongly POVed editors who try to enforce what they believe to be the "real" truth about historical and/or current events. This becomes more apparent in topics that include traditionally hostile ethnic groups, such the Israeli-Palestinian debate. It has become common to have a range of articles (sensitive to one or both sides of the dispute) form a "trenchline" with POV tags to denote the boundary and combatant enemy "armies" of wikipedians ready to engage in edit warring the moment an edit crosses the line.
A common recurrence in such "trenchline" articles is wikipedians forgetting to Assume Good Faith on behalf of others, especially if the said others are considered to be "enemy combatants". Also the whole idea of Neutral Point of View is usually forgotten for the shake of "defending" a version of the article against the "enemy POV".
Recently in Wikipedia another such "trenchline" has been formed. The trenchline spans a whole series of articles related to Greco-Turkish relations and history.
[edit] Purpose
The purpose of the Greek and Turkish wikipedians board of cooperation is to create a common ground for wikipedians interested in greco-turkish related articles and are determined to maintain a high level of civility and cooperation while assuming good faith and sticking to the principles of NPOV. We hope that we can collaborate in order to improve, de-POV, verify and perfect greco-turkish related articles.
The board can be a meeting place:
- for wikipedians that wish to coordinate constructive editing of greco-turkish related disputes,
- for wikipedians who want to help keep a level of civility and cooperation in heated greco-turkish related debates,
- for wikipedians who are sick and tired of the mutual suspicion and want to do something about it,
- even for wikipedians who want to act as casual and unofficial mediators in disputed greco-turkish related articles.
The ultimate purpose for this board is to make evident that we can disagree all right but we don't have to eat each other's head for this.
[edit] Not the purpose
The board does not aspire to be a solving machine for everything that is disputed in greco-turkish relations and history. As wikipedians we know that our purpose is to describe facts and when facts are disputed, to describe versions of facts in an NPOV way.
The board's puspose is not to replace the official organs for dispute resolution in wikipedia, or even the Mediation Cabal. For dispute resolution you are advised to request the learned opinions of the official wikipedia organs.
[edit] Principles
There are a number of principles that wikipedians are required to subscribe to in order to join this effort.
- Apparently the most important is Assume Good Faith. Every wikipedian that wants to be a part of this board is expected to assume that other wikipedians (not necessarily of this board) are acting in good faith, until proven guilty.
- The Neutral Point of View principle is the means, if not the end, of every wikipedian interested in being a part of this board.
- Every wikipedian in the board is expected to understand that facts in such controversial disputes are usually a priori disputed in themselves. Sources are usually expected to be biased and interpretation of events are expected to be largely different. We intent on presenting all the facades and interpretations of truth and facts in a neutral way, letting the reader decide for himself.
- No personal attacks. We have had enough incivility and personal attacks by biased editors and we will not tolerate personal attacks on this board. That is to say, every wikipedian who wants to be part of the board is expected to remain civil and cool in disputes and refrain from personal attacks.
[edit] List of members
If you want to be a member just add your name to the following list. Remember that you are expected to assume good faith and cooperate in a spirit of mutual respect and civility with your co-editors.
- Sysin
- Damac
- Michalis Famelis
- Freestylefrappe
- Latinus
- Metb82
- katpatuka
- Eşref
- Cretanforever
- Bahar
- UNFanatic
- Nikman
- CrashMex
- Kalogeropoulos
- Yannismarou
- Hattusili
- Iago4096
[edit] Ongoing Issues/To-do List
This is an incomplete list of articles that could be mentioned here, as the process of article-gathering has just started. Feel free to add to the list articles that you feel a cool minded board made of turkish and greek wikipedians can help you improve. Remember to add a small description of the nature of the dispute.
- The temperature here is quite high. The proposed merge with Turkish War of Independence is also a matter of heated dispute.
- There is an ongoing discussion/poll as to weather the article should be named Istanbul Pogrom and issues of NPOV have arisen. The discussion lately has been relatively civil, as User:Blue sea seems to have lost interest in flaming everyone and editing the article.
- This is an article with NPOV issues. On the talk page hot headed editors from both sides have taken to rambling and talking about past events irrelevant to the article.
- List of Turkish genocides by Greeks
- This list and the articles included in the list, all seem to have POV and verifiability issues.
[edit] Examples of articles with good NPOV status
This is a proposed list. Please help find (or even write!) a model NPOV article related to greco-turkish relations or history.
- Allthough the article deals with a controversial topic, editors seem to have reached a good point in accord to NPOV, with the exception of the Uprisings section.
- Althought the article is small, the article presents a balanced account of both sides views in a neutral way.
[edit] Wikipedian Comments
- It is a noble effort and I hope it comes to fruition. We have a lot in common as a people (for example, I know for a fact that I'm 1/64 Turkish) and we shouldn't let a few provocators from each side set the tone of the discussion. Sysin 07:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
- Michali, have had a quick read through the proposal and view it as a very worthy idea. I'm neither Turkish or Greek, but take a great interest in the region and its peoples. This group could take on controversial topics, such as the massacres of Muslims in the Peleponnese during 1821 or the Istanbul Pogrom, and try to present them in the most objective way possible. --Damac 08:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's a good idea. As far as I can see though, there is little conflict and/or mistrust between Greek and Turkish Wikipedians, but this could become a great place to discuss the articles in which both Greeks and Turks have an interest. Latinus 20:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- Nice idea but I don't know exactly where one could start. I'm a german living in Cappadocia (Kapadokya | Καππαδοκία ;-) --katpatuka 16:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- I strongly support such a initiative. These contacts are essential if the peoples are to eventually understand each other. After years of contact with Greeks, I see that people of two nations know surprisingly little about each other. I am a Turkish academician, grandparents from Thessaloniki, interested in Turkish-Greek issues (not academically though). I have little knowledge of Greek. My Turkish page : tr:Kullanıcı:Eşref. Eşref 07:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I wrote a notice on this in Turkish wikipedia's Community Portal. I will paraphrase it from time to time to keep it on the agenda. I am prone to thinking that a 'piano piano!' approach with 'molto molto!' participation would be judicious. Is there a way we could get an initiative like this...consecrated...supported...subsidized:)...by Wikipedia? Just thinking aloud...:) After all, it's a noble idea, aimed at putting some order in a lot of wikipedia articles which sound like past wars being re-fought. --Cretanforever 10:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you Michalis Famelis, for your idea about Greek and Turkish Wikipedians, I would like to join the group to help articles about Turks and Greeks. CrashMex 15:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- Greeks leave Turkish articles that don't concern you alone. You are pushing Greek POV everywhere. I was wondering why Greek Wikipedia hasn't reached 10,000 articles, now I know why, because they are all busy editing Turkey related articles on English Wikipedia.--Kagan the Barbarian 21:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah my friend that's the reason, you are right. If it was so then shouldn't be any proper article on Ottoman empire on your country, on your airports, on your language in greek wikipedia. But there are, as exist articles on Barbarossa, on spahes, on yanissaries and many other features of your civilization and many more to come in due time. Anyway fanatism does not help either of thesse two nations. Count me in and pls notify. I can contribute in anthropolological and archaeological articles most in cooperation with anybody--Kalogeropoulos 21:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- By chance, I noticed this initiative. I have a great interest in history. I do not know what's going to be the exact form of this initiative, but I'd love to help, if I may. Yannismarou 16:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry but in Izmır, there is Turks.. Not Greeks.If you will write Izmir in Greekian, write California in Aztecian..Try this!!!--88.241.151.148 04:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Categories
Hi, I'd propose an idea to board members and would appreciate their opinions on it. I've been busy categorising the people on the Category:Greek people. I've been try to place people in more meaningful subcategories, such as Category:Greek people by profession as well as categorising people according to the periphery they were born in.
One of the problems I've encountered is to how to deal with the Greeks and Turkish people who were born in one place but had to leave as part of the Exchange of Populations.
Take for example Photios Kontoglou. He was born in Ayvalik. Should a category, such as Anatolian Greeks be created for people like him? I see that there is a Category:Pontic Greeks in existence but it seems to be for the ancient period. There is an equivilant article entitled Cretan Turks which can serve as a pattern for naming future articles and categories. The other alternative is to categorise people like Kontoglou as natives of the particular areas in Turkey where they came from. This is what is being currently done for Turks born in what was then the Ottoman Empire but now Greece.
The other question is what to do for Greeks born and currently living in Turkey. There is a new article entitled Greeks in Turkey. I'd have no problem in creating a new category Category:Greeks from Turkey, even though the Turkish state does not recognise a Greek but only a Christian minority in the country. Something similar would have to be done for ethnic Turks born and living in Thrace, even though the Greek state only recognises a "Greek Muslim" minority.
I've decided not to rush into anything until I hear people's views on the matter.--Damac 13:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
