Talk:Mirror Universe (Star Trek)

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Mirror Universe (Star Trek) was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 2007-01-08

For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Mirror Universe (Star Trek)

1 Possible origins of the mirror universe
2 The Mirror Universe never diverged.
3 The Crime Syndicate
4 Upcoming ENT-era MU novel?
5 MU in the Comics
6 Mirror Vic an Android?
7 Failed GA
8 Merge from Agonizer

[edit] Possible origins of the mirror universe

Would a possible "point of divergence" have been the survival of Edith Keeler which would have paved the way for an Axis victory in WW II? j/w. - knoodelhed 08:58, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That would be a good "point of divergence" and it is part of the canon. But, it is an English speaking Empire, uses American-British naval ranks, and seems to be dominated by by people with Anglic last names. But, bravo to you for the interesting point, Scott

[edit] The Mirror Universe never diverged.

The Mirror Universe never diverged. Every universe Worf visits in Parallels has its own Mirror Universe (by the way, Worf never makes it home because in his universe, Spot is a male long-haired Somali-cat, while after Parallels, Spot is a female common house-cat and births baby kittens). Universes are paired. The natural tendency of universes is to diverge, but the pairing causes convergence. The result is a theme and variation. The paired universes were, are, and always will be similar, but never identical.---— Ŭalabio 08:30, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Your ideas are intriguing, but thorougly speculative. You're assuming that the writers of Parallels had the Mirror Universe in mind when they sent Worf on his cross-timeline journey. But there's no evidence of that. Quite the contrary -- it seems obvious that the Mirror Universe was one of many TOS concepts that were abandoned by TNG writers, and only revived later in DS9. Fans can insist that there has to be a theory that reconciles the parallel universe concept with the Mirror Universe, but "official" Star Trek has never bothered to provide one. ¶ Despite its non-verifiability, I like your theory, because its the first one I've heard that explains why everybody in the MU is so paranoid and violent, something a "point of divergence" does not. ¶ Be sure to check out Mirror Universe Timeline before it goes away! ---- Isaac R 18:12, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
- My theory is how it simply has to be. If a POD (Point of divergence) is responsible, then we could have Mirror, Mirror, but none of the others. In the time of Deep Space 9, no analogues of the of people, with the exception of long-lived species, would exist. Contrarily, In a Mirror, Darkly would have to happen before the POD. Regardless of Parallels, "¡Our Universe has an evil twin!" with the two of them exhibiting theme and variation. It is the only possible solution. Pairing and entanglement are concepts in real world of quantum-physics. Just imagine two branes paired and entangled. ¿Can you think of any possible POD hundreds of years in the past which somehow insures that people always marry the right people and the correct sperm always finds the right egg so that everyone in one universe has an analogue in the other universe over three hundred years, but in one universe a Federation arises, while in the other Universe, the same people create an Empire?

— Ŭalabio 22:53, 2005 May 30 (UTC)

I agree with every point — Ŭalabio had made. After all, it as always been refered to as a parallel universe. Parallel means running alongside, not diverged from; otherwise it would be refered to as a "divergent universe". This means no divergence point exist and the two universes simply have always been parallel with many convergent aspects; such as the birth of the same people and certain events, such as McCoy spilling acid on a table in both universes. Hence the term "mirror universe". -- Crevaner 05:58, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

There are many concepts in the Star Trek universe which require liberal use of the Suspension of disbelief. The Mirror Universe is certainly one of them. There's really no logical way to explain how a parallel universe could develop in such a way that all the same people existed, but as opposites of themselves. --142.242.2.248 23:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes there is; Whatever the point of divergence was, or might have been, there would exist branching out from that point every possible outcome from the divergent event, it is therefore extremely likely that in one of those many branching timelines there would exist characters and events which parallel those in the one of the timelines which originate from the other outcome of the original POD.Number36 00:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Crime Syndicate

While the serial Inferno may have been inspired by the Mirror Universe (MU), the Crime Sindicate of America (CSA) first appeared in the comic books in August 1964, beating the Mirror Universe by three years. Therefore, the following section:

"The Mirror Universe concept has been used by Doctor Who in the serial Inferno and by the Justice League of America in stories featuring the Crime Syndicate of Amerika. It is unclear to what extent these have been inspired by the Star Trek setting."

Both ideas, Earth 3 (where the CSA lived) and the Mirror Universe are probably based on similar concepts, but it is logically impossible for the Syndicate to have been inspired by the MU.

Quite right. Changed. Daibhid C 16:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Upcoming ENT-era MU novel?

I seem to recall a Trek Today or TrekWeb news item that indicated that Manny Coto ... or some other writer ... was planning to write a novel continuing the Enterprise-era Mirror Universe stories, since Coto was unable to produce a follow-up for season 5. I can't find the news story anywhere, but if anyone can find a link to confirm the facts, it might be worth noting in either the Enterprise or Novels sections. 23skidoo 06:42, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MU in the Comics

I didn't see a reference to Marvel Comics' "Star Trek: Mirror, Mirror" one-shot. It gives an account of what (may have) happened directly Mirror-Kirk returned to the I.S.S. Enterprise. Mirror-Spock incarcerates Mirror-Kirk, who allies himself with incarcerated Mirror-Sulu in a failed coup attempt. Ultimately, Mirror-Spock enlists Mirror-Scotty's aid in using the Tantalus device against a Klingon attack group. One ship is spared to spread the word of the Empire's terrible new weapon. Mirror-Spock kills Mirror-Kirk at the end of the story, and is given official command of the I.S.S. Enterprise by Mirror-Starfleet.

Also, there was a 2-part back-up story pertaining to the Mirror Universe in Malibu Comics' "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" 29 & 30 that followed Mirror-Tuvok. I don't recall much about the story offhand, but I've got it somewhere.

[edit] Mirror Vic an Android?

Is this true? I've seen the episode in question several times, and while Vic is definitely "real" (not a hologram), I didn't see any evidence that he was an android. (It would make sense, though, seeing as how both would then be artificial lifeforms...) (an anonymous user)

I read this in the main article and immediately jumped to this discussion to post the same question. Perhaps if a third doubter happens along, the designation of mirror-Vic as an android should be deleted. I still claim that this is the funniest site gag in Star Trek history. When mirror-Vic, who can't exist outside the holosuite in the regular universe, bursts out guns ablazin' then gets whacked within about five seconds with no explanation, it's sublimely hilarious. Pardon me if I missed it, but the main article should work in the idea of high camp in the mirror universes of the modern Star Trek. It's not merely that the mirror-characters are more violent or sexual--they're send-ups of violence and sexuality. And the characters who get "toned down," like Brunt or Quark, are specifically parodies of their non-mirror selves. JimmyTheSaint 00:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
When's he's shot, sparks fly out and when you see the "wound" it definately doesn't look biological and seems machanical. What else can he honestly be? --TheTruthiness 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Those are some sharp eyes you've got there. I don't have my DVD set anymore, so I'll have to watch that episode when it cycles around again on Spike TV. What's the episode number and season of Vic's appearance? Of course, if other people can confirm this, the info should go in the main article to support his being an android. On the other hand, couldn't sparks be from 24th century bullets or whatever? JimmyTheSaint 02:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Now wait a second. I have freeze-framed episode 7.12 "The Emperor's New Cloak" at time code 11:22. Mirror-Vic is lying dead and the wound looks consistent with the way biological wounds from energy weapons are displayed: charred stuff with a bit of glowing embers underneath. Looks consistent with body tissue burning at a high temperature. Nothing else about mirror-Vic looks androidian, for example, he has messed up hair like a human, whereas Data and Lor always had plastic looking slicked back hair. I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that mirror-Vic is anything but human, so I'm taking that out of the main article. JimmyTheSaint 05:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I did the same, and there seemed to be some metalic-grey stuff on the wound. BTW, Dada often had bad hair- take that ep where the probe blocks his memory and the locals think he's an Ice-Man. He obviously isn't a hologram, he can't be biological unless he's a clone- but how would a mirror universe where humans are slaves (or any universe for that matter) have the DNA of a 1960s guy? And most humans wouldn't stand in an open space during a firefight, an android who considers himself somewhat invincible might. --TheTruthiness 00:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I like the android idea, and it would have been a great aspect for the writers to make explicit, but there's no clear evidence for it. All we know for certain is that he's not a hologram, so I just wrote "Inexplicably, he's not a hologram..." in the article, which is the most we can claim with confidence. The wound is at most ambiguous: it could possibly be showing fried mechanical guts, but just as possibly biological tissue charred and glowing from weapons whose power we're also not sure of. Granted, the hair is not strong evidence one way or the other, but in the absence of strong evidence, I think we have to assume he's human. Is there any evidence that the mirror universe even has androids of such authentic quality? JimmyTheSaint 17:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

I am sorry to say that this article failed its GA nomination. Refering to the GA criteria, it failed these specific points:

1a) The prose is not up to GA standards. The article uses long and often confusing sentences, and goes on a lot of tangents in parenthesis.
1b) The article itself does not follow a logical structure. It seems to have been written with no plan, with each editor adding information as they thought of it. The article goes from one section about the TV series, to one section about books, to one section for each game, to "other ramifications" which is again about TV, to parodies, to TV again, and then to the "see also" section which, for some reason, contains a short paragraph about a game.
1c) It does not follow style guidelines for writing about fiction. Specifically, many sections are written with an inappropriate in-universe perspective.
1d) While all terms are wikilinked, the article goes a little overboard on this, and many words and names are wikilinked multiple times. The style guideline is to wikilink only the first occurence of a word.
2a) The article provides no references.
2b) The article provids no citations.
2d) The article contains a lot of original research. For instance, there is a long paragraph on fan speculation of the impact of the Enterprise-E's impact on Cochrane's warp test.
3a) This article makes no distinction between canon and non-canon "mirror universe" information. Given that canonicity of material is an important issue in the Star Trek franchise, this would be an important point to discuss.

Thank you for your hard work on this page, and fell free to re-submit it once these issues have been settled. Happy editing! -- Ritchy 17:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Agonizer

Please merge any relevant content from Agonizer per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Agonizer. (If there is nothing to merge, just leave it as a redirect.) Thanks. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-23 08:39Z

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