Talk:Moldovan language

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Archives

Talk:Moldovan language/archive01 (prior to 05:25, 14 November 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive02 (05:25, 14 November 2005 UTC to 22:43, 16 November 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive03 (22:43, 16 November 2005 UTC to 20:28, 18 November 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive04 (20:28, 18 November 2005 UTC to 18:07, 19 November 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive05 (18:07, 19 November 2005 UTC to 00:19, 20 November 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive06 (00:19, 19 November 2005 UTC to 08:42, 03 December 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive07 (08:42, 03 December 2005 UTC to 22:00, 04 December 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive08 (00:56, 05 December 2005 UTC to 21:57, 05 December 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive09 (19:17, 05 December 2005 UTC to 17:12, 07 December 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive10 (19:09, 07 December 2005 UTC to 11:31, 11 December 2005 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive11 (11:37, 11 December 2005 UTC to 09:36, 4 January 2006 UTC) Talk:Moldovan language/archive12 (07:10, 8 January 2006 UTC to 01:33, 1 May 2006 UTC)

Contents 1 Now then 2 Stati's interview 3 Moldovans wanted! :) 4 Marcu Gabinschi 5 Russianism 6 The current version of the article seems to be fair 7 Moldovan language doesn't exist 8 A Moldavian professor 9 ro.wp article 10 Sources

[edit] Now then

This article needs to change. Don't ask what I mean, or what parts I want to change, if you've ever edited this article before, you know very well which parts I am talking about. Bogdangiusca seems to think he has a monopoly on this page. He does not. He is not entitled to revert everybody else's edits as he wishes. He acts as if the current version is canon. It isn't.

Now, in the history of this article, it's clear that the current version was not formed by a consensus of opposing parties, but rather, a consensus of one side of the argument. --Node 06:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There are no two parties. We have you vs. everyone else. bogdan 07:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

No -- we have me, vs Romanians. There are other parties (such as Oleg Alexandrov, Khoikhoi, Francis Tyers), but none of them have been involved as much as they would need to be to keep this from being a one-sided debate. --Node 00:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, you can count me out, I don't mean to offend you or anything. The thing is, the whole reason "people" like Bonaparte came here in the first place is because of the conflict on this page. I suggest we just leave it as it is. —Khoikhoi 00:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good argument. Nobody said achieving NPOV would be easy, did they? But isn't that our ultimate goal? You seem to recognize that the currentversion isn't NPOV, but think we should leave it as it is so as not to attract trolls. I suppose it would make more sense to wait for more Moldovans so the fight can be Moldovans vs Moldovans rather than Romanians vs Node. --Node

If you want Moldovans, then here I am. Vox Populi (TSO) 01:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That's "moldoveni", Tso1d. More than one. A horde. Fetch us a horde of Moldovans! --Node 05:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)`

Well, there aren't that many on Wikipedia. In any case, I agree that we should not modify the article right now as that would only create another endless battle. TSO1D 13:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, Node goes again with "everybody who goes against me is certainly not from Republic of Moldova thingie ?", he just keeps forgetting... --Just a tag

You aren't a real Moldovan, colleague. You, little man, are just like like a transformer -- a robot in disguise. --Node 07:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I now begin to wonder who's that mythical beast - the REAL moldovan, is it like Neo from the Matrix ? As for being like a bot, you know, some people call it living a life outside of computers and wikipedias, try pondering on that for a while ;) ---Just a tag 09:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

So who's the second "moldovan"? It seems to me that you are alone in Category:User_mo [1]. Dpotop 17:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Node you shouldn't say stuff like "No -- we have me, vs Romanians". This makes it look like you see this thing as a quest by you against the Romanians and it does not help your argument because it makes you seem very POV against Romanians and not an objective Wikipedian. But, like you said, maybe we should wait a little for some Moldovans to start getting themselves involved here - and I don't just mean people of mixed ancestry who grew up their whole lives in the USA and who cannot speak the language fluently (or in retrospect to be fair, Moldvoans from the Romanian part of Moldova who likewise do not know what things are like on the other side of the Pruth). This debate should be done by actual Moldovans from there, that have seen the situation on the ground there, and have lived there and know exactly what they are talking about - because as far as the rest of us goes we all have preconceived ideas of what this article should look like. As far as my personal experience goes, I have visited Moldova and I can tell you, Moldovans are as different from each other as they are from the rest of the world : you can find super-Romanians there and you can find the biggest Romanian-haters in that little country. Dapiks 00:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

When are you going to stop hating Moldovans? --Node 07:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody hates Moldovans buddy, just little immature brats ( I am not pointing fingers to anyone). Dapiks 20:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

That is a clear personal attack. Please retract it. --Node 02:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Good to see things haven't changed much here. Winona Gone Shopping 03:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stati's interview

I was trying to find Vasile Stati's interview to read it again, and I see the external link to the interview is no longer listed in the article. Or did I miss it? Finally I found it on the internet here. If it's really missing from the article I suggest we link it again.

And the main question: In this interview Stati says that Romanian and Moldovan, in their literary forms, are identical. Why does the article say that Stati disputes this?

Stati's exact statement was: "Incontestabil, forma literară, cea mai elevată a limbii moldoveneşti, forma cultă, prelucrată de scriitori şi lingvişti, este identică cu forma literară a limbii româneşti." — AdiJapan ☎ 10:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moldovans wanted! :)

I'll give a barnstar to any person that points me to a native Moldovan language speaker on wikipedia. I'll also support him, were he/she wishing to become admin on the Moldovan wikipedia. Dpotop 09:00, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Note: the previous offer is meant to show that no such thing as a "Moldovan" speaker exists on the whole wikipedia. Dpotop 09:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marcu Gabinschi

I never heard of him. Khoikhoi, do you have an exact citation of his affirmations? bogdan 21:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

According to this, he wrote a book called "Reconvergence of Moldavian towards Romanian", which inclines me to believe that he has the Moldovanist views on the language. I also found something in Romanian, from this PDF:

În cartea Limba şi politica în Republica Moldova articolele au fost publicate în ordinea cronologică a apariţei lor. Studiul Limba şi naţunea în Republica Moldova n-a fost publicat în original ci a fost trimis pentru editare la Chişinău, în traducerea lui Marcu Gabinschi. Articolul Limba şi literatura în Basarabia şi Transnistria a fost retipărit în traducerea lui Grigore Chiper în 1991 în trei numere ale Revistei de lingvistică şi ştiinţă literară. Articolul Eminescu în Republica Moldova este reprodus după textul apărut în trei numere ale revistei Limba română (Chişinău) din 1995, fără a se indica dacă acesta a fost sau nu publicat în limba germană în traducerea lui Florin Manolescu. Articolele Româna: Moldoveneasca şi Moldoveneasca sub semnul restructurării şi al publicaţei au fost traduse de Marcu Gabinschi.

I have a feeling, however, that the above might prove me wrong. If so, please don't laugh at me. :p —Khoikhoi 23:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm... Well, that "Reconvergence of Moldavian towards Romanian" probably refers to the local spoken dialects, not the official language. You know, like how they had the word "curechi" for "cabbage" and now it's more commonly used "varză", from standard Romanian. bogdan 08:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Bogdan, I cited this text before to you, it refers exactly to the official language. --Node 01:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll do some more research. What did the Romanian text say? —Khoikhoi 08:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Nothing much, it just lists the articles/books.

In the book "Language and politics in Rep. Mold.", the articles were published in chronological order. The study "Language and nation in Rep. Mold." was not published in its original form, but was sent for editing to Chişinău, in the translation of Marcu Gabinschi... etc.

bogdan 14:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There are 11 Archives above. Don't open another war Khoikhoi. --Just a tag 2 20:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Banned as impostor impersonating User:Just a tag. bogdan 20:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russianism

there is a new article created, Russianism. Please update it with examples from Moldovan langauge. `'mikka (t) 23:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The current version of the article seems to be fair

I am a person who lives in Chisinau (the capital of Moldova); I speak Romanian, so I might be the guy "from Moldova who hangs out on Wikipedia" you were looking for.

My opinion is that the article is fair*, because it emphasizes that there is a lot of controversy on the topic. Perhaps this is the optimal solution that can be reached at this point. You need to understand that this is an tricky discussion point inside the country, and as long as there is no consensus in Moldova, it is likely that this Wikipedia discussion will keep consuming our valuable time in vain.

Why is it still a dispute after more than 10 years of independence? This is a consequence of Russia's aggressive 'rusification' policy.

Has anyone read Orwell's "1984"? If so, then you must be familiar with the strategy which involves the complete re-write of all printed material, so that it matches the new 'facts'. That's exactly what happened here throughout the years - the alphabete was changed, history books were altered, people were deported, etc. It takes time to recover from that, and it takes even longer if Russia's strong grip is still felt. Economically, Russia's decisions can have a negative impact on Moldova's stability, so we are still constrained in our freedom (political, military, economical).

As a Moldovan who is dedicated to his country, I would extend the article by making it more pro-Romanian; but that would of course bring life back into the zealots who are on the other side of the barricades, resulting in another holy war.

If anybody has doubts about my really being a citizen of Moldova, you can call a +373 number (this is our code) I can provide, or I can call you myself and hope that your caller ID works right.

I should also add that I speak Russian (it was my first language), I lived in Ukraine, Russia, Romania (and some other states which aren't in this area, so mentioning them is not relevant), and now I am a resident of Chisinau. I believe this allows me to see the big picture.

You might be interested why there aren't many 'authentic moldovans' contributing; I can't tell for sure, but my best guess is that others have problems to handle (get a job, get a decent education, etc), so spending time on the Internet is not something which directly contributes to these primary objectives. People have other priorities at the moment; if you take a look at Maslow's pyramid, you'll understand what I mean.

Gr8dude 22:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moldovan language doesn't exist

I also live in Chisinau, Moldova and speak Romainian as my native language. It's very sad to know that people want us to be considered as different nation from Romanians. You can call my number too, if you want to be sure that I'm telling the truth. 326 19:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

It does, as long as it is mentioned in the Moldavian consitution. I^NT_ER^NA_ZI 12:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Moldavian professor

Interesting info from POSTICA GHEORGHE: CIVILIZATIA MEDIEVALA TIMPURIE DIN SPATIUL PRUTO-NISTREAN (SECOLELE V-XIII) is found here. The first chapter has a lot of info which could be used on the Moldovan language article (e.g. the fact that, due to political reasons, as to expand their influence in Romania, the Soviets at actually supported the Moldovan-Romanian equality in the beggining, and only later, after WW2, they switched to the "Moldovan" theory instead...) Greier 11:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ro.wp article

I was surprised, last time I checked the corresponding article at ro.wp, it actually seemed more neutral and more well-researched than the en.wp article. Granted, there is a little bit of bias, with a generalised Russophobic tilt, but it's pretty mild. I've made a loose adaptation here.

Two major ongoing issues are:

• How do we refer to Transnistria? We can use the pro-Moldavian phrasage "unrecognized territory" or "seperatist region", which hides the fact that it is de facto independent and excercises control over most (if not all) of the territory it claims, or we can use the pro-independence phraseage "de facto independent state" or "self-governing territory", which do not explicitly mention that it is not internationally recognised. We could of course mention that it is already de facto independent but is not internationally recognised de jure, but that is too wordy, after all this article is not about Transnistria. I personally favour "disputed region", but that does not acknowledge the challenges many people here have levelled against the authority or the relevance of the separatist government (although it is undeniable that they have the basic organs of statehood, and those organs operate fully, including a parliament, a constitutional court, and to the best of my knowledge, they tax their citizens and operate a police force)
• How do we refer to the Soviet period? Was it an occupation or not? Many sentimental unionists would like to demonize the USSR and call it an occupation, but it's not that clear-cut. --Node 23:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

For the discussion on Transnistria, we are having the same debate at Transnistria if you want to take a look, so I'm not sure what to say at this point. As for whether the term occupation is justified or not might, this may be challanged by the complex legal situation of the period, however it is still the best term to use for that period and most modern historical sources refer to it as such. TSO1D 00:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds indeed much better to me, though it lacks the description of the usage of cyrillic. Could someone read/translate that article aswell, to get all POVs? The German wikipedia has a nice neutral seeming article on topic. I'll translate it if anyone 'd ask!I^NT_ER^NA_ZI 13:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

To newcomers: I suggest not taking Node lightly. The guy may simply want to re-ignite the edit war here. For those who want to talk about WP:AGF, take a look at edits one year old. I presume the only way to switch this is to make a full parallel adit, and then, when everybody has agreed upon all details, replace it. Dpotop 19:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Dpotop, that is a clear personal attack. I would RPA, but then I would be accused of censorship. If you think that I ever did anything just because I "enjoy edit warring", think again. No matter how crazy you think I have acted, it was all for the purpose of making this article better. --Node 20:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, while you were absent, the article matured fairly well, in the exact direction proposed by moderated editors during the edit wars of a year ago. Dpotop 21:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that's relevant. By the way, the article barely changed at all since then, and lots of the poorly-researched text added by Bonaparte was still intact until very recently. --Node 17:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I was browsing through this article and its sources and I found the following, the article says in the first paragraph that "some Moldovian officials and official bodies [consider standard Moldovan to be identical to standard Romanian]"; the source cited is Omniglot. Two issues: (a) Omniglot doesn't say that, and (b) Omniglot is citing Wikipedia as a source (for something else). If (a) was true, how reliable can you reasonably expect it to be after taking into account the caliber of sources Omniglot uses? I suppose that statement is true, can't a better source be found? I can't find anything, perhaps there is something in Romanian?--Domitius 00:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)