Talk:Ode to Joy
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Would it be acceptable if I were to post the actual poem in the article, in German and English? Or, more accurately, the libretto from Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. In so asking, I'm obviously being lazy - I haven't bothered researching Wikipedia policy on quoting entire (but short) poems in articles! Harris7 00:02, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I just wanted to clarify that in most German editions of Schiller's work and in biographies and other material about him, the poem is not "Ode to Joy" but rather "To Joy" ("An die Freude"). In other words, it is AN ode to joy whose title is "To Joy". I have corrected this in the relevant Wikipedia articles. I haven't, however, gone to a research library to see if there is a Schiller version of it in which he actually called it "Ode to Joy", although this would be a rather unlikely German construction. In German it's sometimes also referred to as a hymn rather than an ode. Jeremy J. Shapiro 02:35, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Whose the English translations of Ode to Joy are? I think it would be good to publish the names of translators, or state their anonymity/pseudonimity, if that is the case. -idli samba
The formatting on this article is terrible. Somebody mind lining the verses up so we know what's being translated into what?
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[edit] Tochter aus Elysium
My interpretation of the von Karajan performance (and of the translation, which is plainly genitive) is that this should read "Tochter des Elysium". Of course, I could be just plain nuts :) --Fred 05:14, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- If the genitive was used, the word 'Elysium' would be inflected also, thus 'Tochter des Elysiums', breaking the rhyme. A strict, direct translation should therefore say 'from' instead of 'of'. Sinuhe 09:47, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
I dont know if the english version of "An die Freude" is correct that way it is in here. But it loses a lot of spirit during the translation. Shouldnt we try to do a nicer one?
If the classicism of Schiller be taken into account, allowance should be made as to how to interpret the word "Tochter"; it means "daughter" in English and "kore" in Greek; now the meaning of the Greek "kore" is not only "daughter", but "girl" in general; I believe that Schiller has the Greek word in mind with its second meaning (and the context is Greek with Elysium and all that) and expresses this meaning using the German "Tochter"; Joy is a girl living in Elysium ("aus" signifying "hailing from Elysium"), the genitive would not disrupt the rhythm, it would merely be pointless as a possessive; Elysium is a place, it cannot "have" a daughter. Lucius Domitius 22:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Does Beethoven's version belong here?
The version of the poem currently on the page is Beethoven's version, with the initial recitative and all, albeit with sidenotes where Schiller did things differently. I reckon this article should be about Schiller's poem, though: Nevermind that Beethoven's setting is the most well-known one, we should stick to the subject of the article. Shouldn't, then, the Beethoven version be on Symphony No. 9 (Beethoven) only, and Schiller's original here? EldKatt 19:40, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
- That makes sense to me. Go for it. -Willmcw 21:28, July 9, 2005 (UTC)
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- Done. EldKatt 11:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Please note that the English translations on this page and the Beethoven's 9th page are rather different, even for the passages that are identical in German. Jeremy J. Shapiro 18:12, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- I do not think the version that is on the article currently is the original version of Schiller.
I have copied out from the Oxford book of German Poetry 1927 the poem of Schiller in its entirety. I suggest this version should be used instead of the one currently used. There may be a few spelling errors in this as I copied it out from a book.
Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was der Mode Schwert geteilt; Bettler werden Fürstenbrüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
Seid umschlungen, Millionen! Diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt! Brüder - über'm Sternenzelt Muss ein lieber Vater wohnen.
Wem der große Wurf gelungen, Eines Freundes Freund zu sein; Wer ein holdes Weib errungen, Mische seinen Jubel ein! Ja - wer auch nur eine Seele Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund! Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle Weinend sich aus diesem Bund!
Was den grossen Ring bewohnet, Huldige der Sympathie! Zu den Sternen leitet sie, Wo der Unbekannte thronet.
Freude trinken alle Wesen An den Brüsten der Natur; Alle Guten, alle Bösen Folgen ihrer Rosenspur. Küsse gab sie uns und Reben, Einen Freund, geprüft im Tod; Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben, Und der Cherub steht vor Gott.
Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen? Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt? Such' ihn über'm Sternenzelt! Über Sternen muss er wohnen.
Freude Heisst die starke Feder
In der ewigen Natur.
Freude, Freude treibt die Raeder
in der Grossen Weltenuhr.
Blumen lockt sie aus den Keimen,
Sonnen aus dem Firmament,
Spähren rollt sie in den Raümen,
die des Sehers Rohr nicht kennt.
Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen
Durch des Himmels prächt'gen Plan,
Laufet, Brüder, eure Bahn,
Freudig, wie ein Held zum Siegen.
Aus der Wahrheit Feuerspiegel
Lächelt sie den Forscher an.
Zu der Tugend steilem Hügel
Leitet sie des Dulders Bahn.
Auf des Glaubens Sonnenberge
Sieht man ihre Fahnen wehn,
Durch den Riss gesprengter Saerge
Sie im Chor der Engel stehn.
Duldet mutig, Millionen !
Duldet für die Bessre Welt !
Droben überm Sternzelt
Wird ein grosser Gott Belohnen.
--Rogernz1 06:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC) - [User:rogernz1|Roger] 19:30 December 26 2006
[edit] "Only one" or "even but one"?
I remember being on this article a few months ago, and the page was much more in-depth. It included the German version alongside the English one (both with Beethoven's alterations in parentheses) and an English translation that was made to preserve rhyme/meter as much as possible. Anyone know what happened to that?
Should the lines "Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele/Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund" be translated: "Yea, whoever calls one soul one's own on Earth" or "Yea, whoever calls even but one soul one's own on Earth"? I think the second option is more accurate if the context be taken into account; one should join the blissful chorus if one can call another human being one's own, not in the manner of actual possession obviously. If we take the first option, is there not the risk to inerpret it after the fashion that everyone can claim their own soul as theirs, at least even if they have no bond to other people? This would be completely off the point. Lucius Domitius 18:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- My humble understanding is that the latter translation is correct. What Schiller is essentially saying (to my small brain) is: "let he who has found a wife or a friend join with us in celebration. Even those who have but one soul on earth to call (their own) i.e. those who have a "bond" with their own soul, let them join us. But he who has failed in this (i.e. calling their own soul "their own") must remove himself from our circle.
Don't get it? Don't blame me, neither do I. As I said, it's just my humble understanding of the loftly schiller. I stand to be enlightened by anyone with a greater expertise than me in poetry.
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- As in the English, the German would support either interpretation, but I think you're right, he is probably talking about "another" soul, although one could argue for the legitimacy of him meaning just one's own soul on the grounds that he's including even the worm as part of the great cosmic revel. But in any case I think that the current translation -- "Yes, who calls even one soul His own on the earth's sphere! -- is accurate and any ambiguity in it is the same as the amgiguity in the German. Jeremy J. Shapiro 15:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
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- The reason I presumed schiller is referring the bond with one's own soul is that he has already referred to those who have found a wife or friend. So who else could he be referring to in saying "Yes, who calls even one soul His own on the earth's sphere"? But I agree - it's probably deliberate ambiguity.
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[edit] Translations and rhyming
Besides, IMHO the second translation is quite good; it can even be sung fluently. However, the rhyming of the following strophe seems a bit weird:
Glad as the sun His will sent plying Through the vast abyss of space. Brothers run your joyous race, Hero-like to conquest flying
- plying
- space
- race
- flying
shouldn't it be:
- plying
- space
- flying
- race
that means:
Glad as the sun His will sent plying Through the vast abyss of space. Hero-like to conquest flying Brothers run your joyous race,
also: O ye millions, I embrace ye! With a kiss for all the world! Brothers, o'er yon starry sphere Surely dwells a loving Father.
- ye (e)
- world (d)
- (er)
- (er)
hmm, it would be really difficult to make the strophe better rhyming. Any suggestions?? Cheerz, Critto
- I took the liberty of moving the section to the bottom of the page, to prevent collision with other posts. Anyway, I'm fairly sure the first (literal, without rhyme or metre) translation is a true wiki translation, with no single author. As for the second one, I don't know.
- The rhyme in the first of the stanzas that you comment on (Glad as the sun...) makes perfect sense; cf. the original text. The scheme here is ABBA, just like the current translation: fliegen; Plan; Bahn; Siegen.
- The other one (O ye millions...) has no rhyme at all, though. This, I agree, is not quite as good. EldKatt (Talk) 16:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
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- I got the rhyming version from http://www.sergioleonardi.com/bandiereinni/paroleinni/europeanunion.htm
- I don't believe it's copyright. There's no copyright mark in the page.
[edit] Redundant
More than 80% of this article deals with the Beethoven setting of the poem, which is discussed at length at the Ninth symphony page. This article should probably deal more with the historical context of the poem, along with an analysis of the text, and a literal translation. I'm probably going to move the "singable" translation to the Beethoven page, as it is not germane to a discussion of the poem itself. All of the facts regarding the Beethoven setting are on the Beethoven page, already, making this article pretty redundant. DYK's of instances that "used Beethoven's music but not Schiller's words" couldn't be more out of place.
Schiller's poem did have a life outside of Ludwig van Beethoven's mind, and it's that life that should be reflected here. In addition, the article should probably be retitled "Ode to Joy (Schiller)" to differentiate it from (and dissuade) discussion of the Beethoven symphony.
As it stands right now, half of the first paragraph, the paragraphs on the different musical settings, the text itself and its translation are about the only things that should be on this page. I'm going to give it a week to stir up some conversation and maybe convince me that I'm wrong, but I'll probably be doing a major delete after that. -- MusicMaker5376 19:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Translation
I'm moving our wiki translation of the Beethoven libretto here because I think it's too valuable to lose, but I can't make it line up correctly with all the emptiness because Beethoven didn't use all of Schiller's poem. I've (or I'll) post the entire German text on the main page when I go back and edit. But, here's the translation. We should work on a full translation.
Joy, beautiful spark of God, Daughter of Elysium, We enter, fire-drunk, Heavenly one, your shrine. Your magic reunites What custom strictly parts. (Original: What custom's sword has parted) All people become brothers (Original: Beggars become princes' brothers) Where your gentle wing alights.
Whoever has succeeded in the great attempt To be a friend to a friend; Whoever has won a lovely woman Mix in your joy! Yes, who calls even one soul His own on the earth's sphere! And let whoever has never achieved this Steal away crying from this group!
All beings drink joy At the breasts of nature; All the good, all the bad Follow her trail of roses. She gave us kisses and vines, A friend, proven in death; Great pleasure was given to the worm, And the cherub stands before God.
Glad, like his suns fly Through heaven's splendid plan, Run, brothers, your race, Joyful, like a hero to the victory.
Be embraced, millions! This kiss to all the world! Brothers, over the starry firmament Must live a loving father. Do you bow down, millions? Do you sense the Creator, world? Seek him beyond the starry firmament! He must dwell beyond the stars.
-- MusicMaker5376 06:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ode to Joy as EU Anthem - by Adri K.
Where is the past informations about Ode to Joy as EU anthem? This article contained it several months ago. I feel necessary to add the lost information.
The Ode to Joy was adopted as Europe's anthem by the Council of Europe in 1972, with an official arrangement for orchestra written by Herbert von Karajan. In 2003, the European Union chose Beethoven's music for the poem as the EU anthem, without German lyrics, because of the many different languages used within the European Union. Therefore, the EU anthem is in effect the Beethoven theme (or melody) rather than Schiller's poem, although its connection with the ideal of human brotherhood in the text is understood. This ideal is stated in much more universal terms in Beethoven's adaptation ("All men become brothers") than in Schiller's original, which states that "beggars become the brothers of princes." Beethoven's music for the Ode to Joy was also adopted as a national anthem by the UDI regime of Rhodesia. In 1974 it was put to words. (See Rise O Voices of Rhodesia.) Beethoven's theme is also the setting for the Christian hymn, Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee (or Hymn to Joy), a poem written in 1908 by Henry van Dyke (1852–1933). Ode to Joy, with its German lyrics, was featured prominently in the 1971 film and 1962 book A Clockwork Orange. This scene has been parodied in television shows, most notably in The Simpsons episode Dog of Death. Ode to Joy was also featured in Episode 24 of the popular anime Neon Genesis Evangelion. Ode to Joy was also used at the Olympics, for victory ceremonies, as national anthem of the United Team of East and West Germany, at the 1956, 1960 and 1964 Summer Olympics. Less famous musical settings of the poem were written by Franz Schubert (for voice and piano, 1815) and Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky (for solo singers, choir and orchestra in a Russian translation, 1865). Bright Eyes used the music from Ode to Joy on his song Road to Joy from the album I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning. Ritchie Blackmore's band Rainbow recorded the Ode to Joy for their 1980 album Difficult to Cure, renaming it so to become the title track, although the words were not sung. During the final tour of Japan in 1984 the track was performed with a full orchestra. Ode to Joy is also a common Christmas Carol in Japan. • Beethoven's Ode to Joy (file info) o A simplified version of Beethoven's setting of part of the poem, from his ninth symphony o Problems listening to the file? See media help. [edit]
