Talk:Passerine

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WikiProject Birds To-do: edit MAJOR taxonomic overhaul (see here) Create Galloanserae For new cat: Category:Natural history of the Americas, replace "Hummingbird" article (by Some collaboration, hopefully) an artcle: along title LINE of: Hummingbirds--the bird of the Americas

Contents 1 Additions 2 Illustration 3 Singing 4 Inconsistency? 5 Order of lists 6 Major taxonomic overhaul 6.1 The papers

[edit] Additions

More families to slot into place:
Tichodromidae

Tichodromadidae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Salpornithidae
Also can't find Paradoxornithidae or Panuridae

-> Paradoxornithidae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

(they're not included under Timaliidae here as they sometimes are)
MPF 15:54, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Families to slot into the passerine list at the appropriate place:
 Cardinalidae
 Timaliidae
 Icteridae
 Mimidae
 Motacillidae
 Oriolidae
 Parulidae
 Remizidae
 Rhabdornithidae
 Thraupidae
 Vangidae
 Dendrocolaptidae

-> Furnariidae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

No 'pedia entry on these, many of them may be non-families - i.e., leftovers from the many and various edits based on many and various taxonomies, including (no doubt) the odd misspelling or typo. Quite a few of them will be weirdo "families" from ITIS. On the other hand, quite a few of them will be ones we need to keep and (eventially) write entries on:

 Callaeidae
 Climacteridae
 Monarchidae

-> Dicruridae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 Nectariniidae
 Pachycephalidae
 Peucedramidae
 Ptilonorhynchidae
 Rhipiduridae

-> Dicruridae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 Menurae

-idae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 Atrichornithidae
 Xenicidae

= Acanthisittidae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 Artamidae
 Campephagidae
 Chamaeidae

Sylvidae? Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Sylviidae. If you do not accept that the latter is merged into Timaliidae, which a) should be vice versa and b) is debatable, solely resting on a perceived divergence of the sylviid-timaliid clade coincident with emergence other family-ranked clades that is simply inferred from assumptions on the rate of molecular evolution that may or may not be correct (frankly, I find the idea to merge the "core Sylviidae" into the Timaliidae inane given the absence of hard - i.e. fossil - evidence and really wonder why usually good and thorough scientists would seriously suggest such an idea, as it creates another non-informative mega-group, albeit an arguably monophyletic one. I think it is because the research has been conducted from the timaliid point of view, which naturally includes core sylviids with the timaliiids... but it is equally feasible to see it as some timaliids being included with the core sylviids. All that can be said is that the traditional Timaliidae are paraphyletic with regards to core Sylviidae.) Dysmorodrepanis 18:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

 Coerebidae
 Cracticidae

-> Artamidae. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 Dicaeidae
 Drepanididae
 Dulidae
 Estrildidae
 Grallinidae

Paraphyletic. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 Ploceidae
 Ptilogonatidae
 Trenidae - misspelling Irenidae?

yes; apparently courtesy ITIS. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Seem to belong to parvorder Corvida, superfamily Corvoidea
 Irenidae split by HBW as Chloropseidae, Aegithidae
 Orthonychidae
 Pomatostomidae

Seem to belong to parvorder Passerida, superfamily Muscicapoidea:
 Picathartidae
 Bombycillidae
 Cinclidae
 Sittidae
 Certhidae
 Paridae
 Aegithalidae
 Regulidae
 Hypocoliidae

Superfamilies not (yet) fully resolved; some of the initial suggestions paraphyletic. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Seem to belong to parvorder Passerida, superfamily Passeroidea:
Alaudidae: larks
Nectarinidae: sunbirds
Dicaeidae: flowerpeckers
 Melanocharitidae
 Paramythiidae
Passeridae: sparrows and Australian finches
Fringillidae: true finches

See above. Dysmorodrepanis 08:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Leaving these out:
 Cisticolidae: covered under Sylviidae?
 Phytotomidae now part of Cotingidae

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Family list is now complete (or at least, any passerine should be accessible thus). Removed disclaimer accordingly. Dysmorodrepanis 08:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Illustration

Clearly, an illustration is required here. The question is - which passerine? (Hey - it shouldn't be too hard, there are less than 5000 to choose from!) We don't have the luxury of being able to select any species, as we only have a certain number of photographs available, so the reality is we probably can only choose which family best represents the passerines, and look for a species from within that. I have quite a few decent pictures of passerines that I haven't used here on the 'pedia yet, but most of them are going to be Australian endemics. Indeed, quite a few will be ones where the entire family is endemic to Oz & nearby places. It would be better to have something reasonably universal. So - any ideas? Tannin

- I suggest some thrush species, such as European Blackbird or American Robin

if you want something universal, Am Robin is not suitable, since it is restricted to one continent. Blackbird is better since it at least covers much larger area. House Sparrow and European Starling have huge ranges, but largely through introductions. Discounting introductions, Barn Swallow might be a contender. Jimfbleak.talk.13:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Barn Swallow is good; most everybody who doesn't live in the desert, in the polar regions, on an oceanic island or in southern Australia has probably seen one. If it's agreed upon, I suggest a light bird of the N American subspecies, as to make it "average-looking"... the Nisqually NAR bird on the Commons for example. It does not look too different from the European ssp, while having a good dash of rufous.

If not the barn swallow, maybe the Common Raven - many people would be surprised that corvids are passerines, but they are actually more "typical" of the order than swallows, and "crows and ravens" are if anything even more widely spread than barn swallows. Dysmorodrepanis 23:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

If you are looking at groups of birds, rather than a single species, Emberizidae is even more widespread than Corvus, more species, and just as typical. Jimfbleak.talk. 06:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but all but absent from Africa & tropical Asia & Australia, no? (A strange thought that many people don't know them at all, given that some emberizid is probably among the first 5 bird species a human notices in his/her life in those areas where they occur... but it was the same when I talked about the Chaffinch to some N Americans and got blank stares... lucky I didn't try to discuss accentors ;-D ) Dysmorodrepanis 16:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Singing

Can someone say more about singing? Like: frequencies, patterns, simulation of bird songs etc. thanks, --Abdull 21:11, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have rewritten the sentence as to include a link to Bird song. Dysmorodrepanis 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistency?

This article says, "...all of them gape in the nest as infants to beg for food", linking to altrices. Altrices says, "They include [...] many passerines." Either "all of them" refers specifically to the subset which are "songbirds and have complex muscles to control their syrinx", in which case it should be "all of these", or one of the articles is wrong/misleading. -Ahruman 09:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of lists

Please note that lists in bird articles are in taxonomic order, placing related species/groups next to each other, and should not be alphabeticised, thanks, jimfbleak 05:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

jimfbleak, hello,

I stand corrected. I could not see that order level. My apologies for interfering. I will note the order being used so other neophytes do not make the same error... Perhaps a general note should be standard...

BTW, can you say more about the taxonomc order? How are they related (subOrders, superFamilies)? If they are in subgroups, where are the dividing lines?

mamgeorge 13:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

One problem at the moment is that DNA studies keep stirring up taxonomic sequences, and for many groups the information available is insufficient anyway (some plant groups are in fact listed alphabetically by default). All groupings are to some extent arbitary human artifacts, and as such can be a matter of judgement. The super/sub groups have their uses, but Wikipedia convention is that they are not used in the taxoboxes to avoid clutter.

sometimes the subgroups are fairly clearcut. The 300 or so hummingbird species fall into two obvious groups. A small number have similar male and female plumage, rely heavily on Heliconia and do not hold compact territories. These, the hermits are clearly different from the majority of the family, and the species list shows two subfamilies. In other families, the differences are less obvious, less well known and more debatable, and subfamily grouping is of limited value. jimfbleak 06:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major taxonomic overhaul

It's about time to get a better taxonomy going. While the list seems based primarily on S&M (pun entirely intended) and by now is horribly unaccurate and what's more, never was complete, I think we need to collect some key papers here before we get it going, if possible accompanied by a brief discussion. I suggest we use this part of the section for discussion, and the subsection for listing the papers, in chronological order. Dysmorodrepanis 19:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The papers

• Christidis et al (1996): Molecular Perspectives on the Phylogenetic Affinities of Lyrebirds (Menuridae) and Treecreepers (Climacteridae). Austr. J. Zool. 44: 215-222.

Morphology & allozymes largely agree but latter groups Menura with Tyranni (which is likely to be a LBA-like error I'd say). Sibley-Ahlquist puts both together with the bowerbirds the not so close relatinship of the latter and the birds-of-paradise agrees with what I thiunk is generally agreed upon nowadays. Their cytB data pits them in some lineage which also contains the bowerbirds, the BoPs as major lineages and Menuridae, Climacteridae and honeyeaters are loosely distributed thereabouts. I find this paper rather disappointing since a rather close relationship of these groups is virtually a given. Menuridae should be satisfyingly updated, but Climacteridae IONO. At any rate, to gve meaningful information the study should have contained Atrichornis and Corvidae and if possibly Acathisittidae and more honeyeaters than just 1 genus. Dysmorodrepanis 21:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

• Cooper & Penny (1997)" Mass Survival of Birds Across the Cretaceous- Tertiary Boundary: Molecular Evidence" Science 275 1109-1114.

An earlier look at the KT boundary with a later origin of passerines. I never quite bought the two lineages of Procellariformes surviing the KT bit myself (which is why I left it out of Albatross. I will try and download some of these other papers over the weekend to read and think about. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

What I have grasped from the van Tuinen (2006) paper seems to resolve the inconsistencies of this one. I remember that this here paper launched considerable debate, I think I read a biting response from one of the paleoornithol big'uns on it.

This was one of the major papers early in the current phase of the debate. It was far to sweeping, and given that 10 years ago when they did the research, the machinery and theory was crude. The van Tuinen paper see below.

Re Procellariiformes - I could try and do some paleo writeup on these. There are some oddities on the functional molecular level, for example trying the 2% rule is likely to fail (which is why it fails in Cooper & Penny, inter alia). Telomeres etc, the works. There was this strange phylogeny in "Emu" IIRC with inordinate lumping, which was literally ripped apart. Molecular dating is too far off without a good fossil record. Higher-level phylogeny's good though with DNA. -- Dysmorodrepanis

• Boles (1997) "Fossil Songbirds (Passeriformes) from the Early Eocene of Australia". Emu 97:43-50

On fossils from Australia that can be determined as very passeriformish, but that's that. The fossil record of P.'s generally sucks; we have all the major lineages at least in pre-bloom but nothing really early. These remains suggest that P.'s were not very differentiated in the early/mid Paleogene, which would fit with a post-C/T origin (see comments under van Tuinen, 2006) Dysmorodrepanis 20:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

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• Ericson et al (2000): Major Divisions in Oscines Revealed by Insertions in the Nuclear Gene c-myc: A Novel Gene in Avian Phylogenetics. The Auk 117(4):1069–1078. PDF

Passerida is by and large monophyletic (some exotic groups were not analyzed), but Passeroidea is poly- or paraphyletic. Many or all nine-primaried oscines are part of a highly derived assemblage that includes some non-NPO taxa too. One of the first ground-breaking studies, still leaves much to be desired as regards completeness.

• Lovette & Bermingham (2000): c-mos Variation in Songbirds: Molecular Evolution, Phylogenetic Implications, and Comparisons with Mitochondrial Differentiation. Mol. Biol. Evol. 17(10): 1569–1577. PDF fulltext

Basically suggests a three-way split (acanthisittids, suboscines, oscines) and Corvoidea/Passerida dichotomy. Much more information is now available, so the remarks for the preceding paper hold true for this one too.

I have used this as the baseline for the systematics sectin on the preceding page. It is reasonable, agrees with the current state of things, and we can work from there. Dysmorodrepanis 08:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

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• Have you read the following?

Ericson P, Christidis L, Cooper, A, Irestedt M, Jackson J, Johansson US, Norman JA. (2002), A Gondwanan origin of passerine birds supported by DNA sequences of the endemic New Zealand wrens. Proc Biol Sci. 2002 Feb 7;269(1488):235-41. PDF Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

In a nutshell and taking into account plate tectonics: Passerine evolution began in southern Gondwana. NZ "wrens" are an early (mid-Cretaceous?) offshoot. New World suboscines and the remaining lineages became separated as Gondwana moved polewards and broke up, the former distributing via S America, the latter via Australia and Wallacea (except the Sapayoa's ancestors). (Judging from this, Godspeed to whoever wants to scour the coasts of the Ross Sea for fossils of proto-passerines...) Dysmorodrepanis 14:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ericson, P. et al. (2002): Systematic affinities of the lyrebirds (Passeriformes: Menura), with a novel classification of the major groups of passerine birds. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 25 (2002) 53–62.

Deals with the Menuridae and the "basal Corvida" of Sibley/Ahlquist. -- Dysmorodrepanis

• If you want to include those, perhaps you should also consider:

Barker, FK, GF Barrowclough, and JG Groth (2002) A phylogenetic hypothesis for passerine birds: taxonomic and biogeographic implications of an analysis of nuclear DNA sequence data Proc. R. Soc. London, Ser. B. 269(1488):295-308.

From the same issue as the Ericson et al. 2002 paper, this paper offers a much more detailed, quantitative distributional analysis, although dating isn't explicitly dealt with. A second paper by this group (see below) is based on much more thorough taxon sampling and includes a temporal component. Donacobius 23:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

• Irestedt, Martin; Fjeldså, Jon; Johansson, Ulf S. & Ericson, Per G.P. (2002): Systematic relationships and biogeography of the tracheophone suboscines (Aves: Passeriformes). Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 23(3): 499–512. DOI:10.1016/S1055-7903(02)00034-9 (HTML abstract)

Another early paper by our Scandinavian friends. 2002 might well mark the year when they got the routine that led to their amazing output the following years: the 2000 Ericson paper seems fairly crude by comparison. Including as much data as they could sequence - notably, 3 nDNA sequences corroborated by mtDNA cyt-b. A methodologically interesting approach. Some biogeographical discussions too. Nice and thorough, and I think the results have been generally validated.

I especially like the part where they point out that the apparent distinctness of the crescent-crests had been anticipated in Wetmore's morphological study of 1926. One sees quite a number of papers these days where the "molecular weight" seems an excuse for skipping the background research (in this case, they had to do the research "on foot", not having the HBW volume at hand. It only came out the following year). A quite elegant study altogether.

By the way, this was indeed the "lost" reference for the woodcreeper-ovenbird merger. Dysmorodrepanis 21:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

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• Ericson, P. et al. (2003): Evolution, biogeography, and patterns of diversification in passerine birds. J. Avian Bol. 34:2-15

Review of the work on Passeriformes since the c-myc study in 2000. Dysmorodrepanis 04:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Ericson, P. et al. (2003): Phylogeny of Passerida (Aves: Passeriformes) based on nuclear and mitochondrial sequence data. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 29 (2003) 126–138 PDF

The start of seriously dismantling the Sylvioidea Dysmorodrepanis 08:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Garcia-Moreno, J., Sorenson, M.D., Mindell, D.P., 2003. Congruent avian phylogenies inferred from mitochondrial and nuclear DNA sequences. J. Mol. Evol. 57, 27–37. PDF

Not seen yet; found in discussion of Long branch attraction. Apparently discusses probable cases thereof. As we have updated research on the taxa by now, could be good to compare. Dysmorodrepanis 23:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

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• Dyke & van Tuinen (2004): The evolutionary radiation of modern birds (Neornithes): reconciling molecules, morphology and the fossil record. Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society 141: 153–177.

Not mch of importance as regards Passeriformes. The authors suggest a Cretaceous origin based on paleobiogeography (which is the closest the idea actually has come to being supported by hard evidence). This seems spurious at first sight, but if one replaces "Passeriformes" with "near passerines s.str." it is actually fairly conventional (the divergence of the Coronaves into major lineages was almost certainly well underway by 65 mya, although the Passeriformes as a distinct lineage may not yet have emerged)

Van Tuinen et al (2006) should be a convenient update on this paper; the scenario presented here ahs been considerably revised and fine-tuned it appears at a first glance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dysmorodrepanis (talk • contribs) 18:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

• Barker, FK, A Cibois, PA Schikler, J Feinstein, and J Cracraft (2004) Phylogeny and diversification of the largest avian radiation Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci., USA 101(30): 11040-11045.

This paper includes a simultaneous analysis of 144 passerines, and again analyzes distributional data quantitatively, addressing the timing of the radiation. The data unequivocally place oscine passerine origins in Australia, and the timing basal passerine splits and their extant distribution imply a Gondwanan origin for passerines. Donacobius 23:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

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• Boles (2005) Fossil honeyeaters (Meliphagidae) from the Late Tertiary of Riversleigh, north-western Queensland Emu 105 21-26 PDF

Another paper by Boles on fossil passerines, this one a free pdf from Emu. Takes some genera back to the early Pliocene. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Van der Meij et al. (2005): Phylogenetic relationships of finches and allies based on nuclear and mitochondrial DNA. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 34: 97–105

Apparently monophyletic, 2 clades: estrildine weaver and remaining taxa. Former split geographically, latter containing sparrows. Dysmorodrepanis 08:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

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• Alström et al (2006): Phylogeny and classification of the avian superfamily Sylvioidea. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 38:381–397

Basically just as the title says: a revision of the Sylvioidea. Sylviidae highly paraphyletic. and go the way of the "Muscicapidae" of old (i.e., Old World flycatchers + warblers + thrushes)

• Ericson et al (2006): Higher-level phylogeny and morphological evolution of tyrant flycatchers, cotingas, manakins, and their allies (Aves: Tyrannida). Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 40:471–483 PDF

Families are monophyletic as per HBW treatment. Tityridae sunk into Tyrannidae, interfamilial relationships & oddballs clarified.

• Ewen et al (2006): Systematic affinities of two enigmatic New Zealand passerines of high conservation priority, the hihi or stitchbird Notiomystis cincta and the kokako Callaeas cinerea. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 40:281–284

The hihi is closest to the Callaeidae, and they are not closely related to anything else as far as anyone could tell. Possibly a very primitive lineage. Taxonomically, the stitchbird should be its own family. Resolution/sampling are really not good enough to say anything about their relationship to berrypeckers or cnemophilines, but the former seems rather unlikely.

I shall remark upon this in the articles, but I will not yet change the taxobox without being sure that this is OK (does the ICZN have to formally publish "Notiomystidae" first before it can be adopted on WP w/o running danger of nomen-nuduming it?) Dysmorodrepanis 02:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Fuchs et al. (2006a): The African warbler genus Hyliota as a lost lineage in the Oscine songbird tree: Molecular support for an African origin of the Passerida. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 39: 186–197.

This deals with the crown Passeri, namely the Hyliota. Distinct lineage, so far so good, but what do the waxwings do hanging around in its neighborhood? I think the basal "Corvida" lineages are better resolved (starting with Ericson et al's 2002 paper in MPE). [1] is a good treatment of the "Passerida" break-up, for which see Alström et al, 2006. Dysmorodrepanis 08:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Fuchs et al. (2006b): An ancient African radiation of corvoid birds (Aves: Passeriformes) detected by mitochondrial and nuclear sequence data. Zoologica Scripta 35: 375–385.

Ties in nicely with the scenarios advanced in Fuchs et al (2006a) and Jønsson & Fjeldsa (2006a).

• Irestedt et al. (2006): Nuclear DNA from old collections of avian study skins reveals the evolutionary history of the Old World suboscines (Aves, Passeriformes). Zoologica Scripta 35: 567–580.

Uses ncDNA, which is possibly overkill on the level they work at, but then you can't have too much data. Broadbills as conventionally understood are paraphyletic with regards to asities and Sapaoya.

• Jønsson & Fjeldså (2006a): Determining biogeographical patterns of dispersal and diversification in oscine passerine birds in Australia, Southeast Asia and Africa. Journal of Biogeography 33: 1155–1165.

Sums up many of the older studies; mainly deals with out-of-Australia dispersal. Features the Corvida and Passerida as they are currently split. Sort of a continuation of Ericson et al (2002) dealing only with the early oscine radiation. Trans-Indian Ocean dispersal more important than previously believed.

• Jønsson & Fjeldså (2006b): A phylogenetic supertree of oscine passerine birds (Aves: Passeri). Zoologica Scripta 35: 149–186.

Basically as the title says. Together with other large-scale surveys, this should enable us to make a nice family-level lineup. Some suggestions (such as placing the placing the NZ wattlebirds with the berrypeckers & cnemophilines, of sinking the core sylviids in the timaliids) need to be taken with an almost unhealthy dose of salt for various reasons to be discussed in the fmaily articles (in the two cases mentioned, dubious phylogeny - see Ewen et al (2006) above - and general lack of informativeness of resultant taxon, respectively)

• Moyle et al. (2006): Reconsideration of the phylogenetic relationships of the enigmatic Bornean Bristlehead (Pityriasis gymnocephala). Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 39: 893–898.

And back it goes to the "strange shrikes" neighborhood - ioras, vangas, the works. As they too have been revised this year IIRC, I wonder how this paper compares with these revisions. Dysmorodrepanis 08:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Pasquet et al (2006): The fulvettas (Alcippe, Timaliidae, Aves): a polyphyletic group. Zoologica Scripta 35: 559–566.

Oh how I'd love to work this into WP right here and now - but it has to wait, because it can only be done together with the Sylviidae breakup (Alström et al 2006), because the "fulvettas" are paraphyletic even up to the family level. Interestingly, the only study that ever came close to the true state of things was an (apparently) purely morphological treatment around 1980. Dysmorodrepanis 17:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• van Tuinen et al (2006): Tempo and mode of modern bird evolution observed with large-scale taxonomic sampling. Historical Biology 18:205 - 221.

Mainly deals with higher-level avian evolution (CT boundary issues, "short fuse" etc). Concludes an "intermediate-fuse" model would agree best with current evidence: major lineages (paleognathes, Galloanseres, some basic "higher landbird" lineages present around CT boundary, but final massive radiation event (including songbirds) around Eo-/Oligocene transition. Dysmorodrepanis 18:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It is pretty vague as far as dates are concerned, but it provides a good model of "layers" of radiation from 100 MYA til today.

As it is, the fossil record of Late Cretaceous Neornithes is fairly extensive, but it is hard to tell what they are. There is of course Vegavis, and the "Graculavidae". It may well be that the passeriform lineage already existed, but it was probably still united with cuckoos etc, and at any rate prolly looked like some mousey midsized tree-hoppers. Galliform birds OTOH probably were still around. As were Sibley's "Ciconiiformes", which should care for most of the "Graculavidae" by the way. Dysmorodrepanis 23:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Ratites still is a major major problem. Everything else I see has been fairly resolved over the last 4-6 years, once you add morphology, geography, behavior, molecules and fossils. Dysmorodrepanis 23:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)