Talk:Perro de Presa Canario

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Contents 1 Websites 2 Temperament 3 about the photo 4 Breed name contradiction 5 Accurate history 6 Removal of copyright notice 7 New Photos 8 Retagged 9 NPOV 10 Whipple Mauling 11 Attacks against People. 12 NPOV 12.1 Bias on Either Side should be avoided, its all a POV 13 The facts surrounding the attacks are not POV 14 Presatruth

[edit] Websites

The link to the ElPresa.com Forum keep being deleted, for no reasons, as if there are the Dogo forum in the links, also the ElPresa forum should be there. Or otherwise provide a valid reason for dropping it. We have thousands of posts and articles in english and spanish, partecipation of spanish breeders which have a lot of experience with the breed, a lot of content to share with our guests, like 4.000 pictures hosted on the forum. I do not see why our Community cannot stay in that section. ~becerillo

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[edit] Temperament

I would like to know if the people who are attacking the accuracy of the temperment section have actually ever met a Presa. Mine is one of 4 dogs, and the youngest, and he has never been anything but an absolute love. He is the sweetest dog I own, and often will roll over and let the smallest dog in the house, a 12 lb PUG, jump all over him, eat out of his food bowl, and take toys from him. Likewise, he has been nothing but the picture of calm when around strangers. I took great care to socialize him from the age of 8 weeks, and now, he will gently lick even a young child (as young as 1 1/2), whom he does not know. Everyone he meets comments on what a wonderful dog he is. People should keep in mind that it is OWNERS who create vicious dogs; this is not a breed who is inherently mean or aggressive. I would beware of the breeder, not the breed. Of COURSE "killer" dogs are going to make the news- a sweet, loving pet is not newsworthy. In addition, the two dogs who killed the woman in California were apparently not even purebred Presas, AND had been trained to fight. Once again, blame the owners for creating vicious creatures which tarnish the reputation of an otherwise wonderful breed. For every instance of a Presa injuring someone, there are many more examples of other breeds doing so, such as Pit bull terriers, Doberman pinchers, or Rottweilers (and again, I do not believe that these dogs are innately aggressive either). Yet somehow, it is the Presa that people seem to fear. Take the time to get to know the breed, rather than basing your opinion on what you read in the news.

Anectdotal evidence. Meaningless. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.72.50.20 (talk) 00:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

The temperament section of this page is a mess. There is little doubt that most people that have heard of the Presa Canario know of it because of the high profile attacks on humans. The temperament section tacitly acknowledges this by mentioning that they are "highly protective" of their master and human family. "Protective" in this case is a euphamism for "aggresive towards strangers." Under Trainability there is the statement that "Due to its aggression, some insurance companies will not issue policies to the owners of Presas." There again we have evidence that the general public regards these animals as aggressive. We also have the Diane Whipple case in 2001 as well as a new case in Florida where the *owner* of a Presa was killed while bathing the animal. How's that for "bonding" with the master? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.211.128.91 (talk • contribs) .

Face it, folks, the Presa is not widely considered to have a mild temperament. Quite the opposite, in fact. Breeders and owners may know differently, but they cannot refute the basic fact that most regard these animals as being dangerous and aggresive animals. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.211.128.91 (talk • contribs) .

I've removed the statement: "Despite its notoriety, the Presa Canario is not a breed known for its man-aggression" because it is self-contradictory. If the Presa Canario is not known for man-aggression then it would not have notoriety. Clearly it has gained a reputation for aggression towards humans, even if this reputation is undeserved. One could perhaps make the case that the Presa has gained undeserved notoriety by comparing known attacks to other more aggresive breeds. But now that the Presa has gained notoriety it will require some solid facts and numbers to refute an inaccurate perception by the general public. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.211.128.91 (talk • contribs) .

I've met those dogs for the first time during a dog show in The Netherlands, they were owned by Belgians who bred them, they told me that the dogs were protective towards family and not very fond of strangers. They also told me that males are LESS agressive then female Dogo's. I've pet them and they weren't agressive towards me or my girlfriend, actually the male dog was very friendly and didn't growl or bark. But they kept their dogs wel separated from the other show dogs. So I disagree with the "mild-temper" story but they are not mindless killers like Fila's

[edit] about the photo

Is that photo from a pure breed presa canario?. However I'm not an expert but I'm actually living in the Canary Islands where those dogs came from and seems a little more solid than that

see the following for references (in spanish) http://www.irema-curto.com/presa-estandar.htm http://www.ifca.unican.es/~camacho/dogs/breeds/spain/pc-std.html

[edit] Breed name contradiction

The existing breed talbe says that Dogo Canario is an alternative name for this breed; latest anon addition says it's a different breed. Can anyone cite references for one way or the other? Elf | Talk 21:13, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

>That and the breed history is false. It's undisputed, when the English took the island they bred the local drover to English Mastiffs. It's probable that bulldogs/bull-and-terriers were also introduced. Today's product is largely a recovered one. When Carl Semenic began writing about the Perro de Presa Canario he called it the Canary Dog or Dogo Canario, which makes sense because it is an English dog as it was bred by Englishmen for their entertainment and from English breeds and on English territory. This article should be shut down until someone w/ the correct information desries re-writing it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.190.89.143 (talk • contribs).

Can you clarify? The question was essentially "is A or B correct", and this answer is "that is false", which isn't too helpful... Elf | Talk 22:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accurate history

>I have posted an accurate history of the breed. It is based on the writings of Clemente Reyes Santana and Manuel Curto Gracia,Manuel Bethecourt,and Preseros on Gran Canaria and Spain. I have studied the Presa Canario breed for 14 years. I have extensive contacts on the Islands and mainland Spain.There are many "histories" of the Perro de Presa Canario. This is the straight scoop. June 24, 2006. David.

	It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality, if possible. Preferred photos show the complete animal, head to tail. Additional photos should add information, such as a face-only shot or distinct coat color or texture variants. Please do not include restricted copyright or "fair use" images.
	Special request: A photo with better lighting

Also, the article states that the breed is primarily calm and "noble", but then under Training: "Due to its aggression ...". Which is it? "Due to its perceived aggression ...", perhaps? I really don't know, but this lacks basic consistency. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.65.248.101 (talk • contribs) . I agree that the article should say "due to its perceived agression." As the writer submitted earlier on this page, I have bred and own two presa canarios who are extremely calm and good natured.

[edit] Removal of copyright notice

I've removed the GFDL copyright notice at the bottom of the article as all articles are licensed under GFDL, and editors may dual-license (or release into the public domain) their edits seperately by stating so on their User page. Also, the article could do with an infobox, and some general cleanup so I've added the {{wikify}} tag too. TheJC ^Talk_{Contributions} 23:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Photos

I`ve added better picures and tried to "wikify" the page as I understand it.I dont know the computer like I know the dogs. David June 26,2006

Looks good. :) TheJC ^Talk_{Contributions} 18:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Retagged

I have retagged this article with a wikify and cleanup tag as at passing glance, it's too hard for anyone to read.

Please use headings, bullet points, and other formatting where possible. KC9CQJ 00:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I've tagged the "Temperament" section with an NPOV tag because it's written very much from the point of view of defending the breed against charges of being aggressive. This is especially true of the last bit about the Diane Whipple case, which was sitting at the end of the article before I moved it to the temperament section. I don't know enough about that case or the breed in general to clean this up myself, but at the moment it sounds very much like Wikipedia is saying "Really, they're not so bad!", which is hardly a neutral point-of-view. User:Angr 09:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

There, I've made an edit to the "temperament" section that I feel is a significant improvement in terms of NPOV. I would like some consensus before I remove the NPOV tag. Thus, comstructive comments and criticism would be appreciated. It should be noted that I'm not familier with the breed, though I did research from reliable sources. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 22:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The temperament edits that were made are very inaccurate. The original form was the most correct and came from a breeder who has ten-years experience with the breed and has seen hundreds of specimens within the U.S. and in the Canary Islands and Spain. To characterize the Presa Canario as agressive is a misrepresentation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.112.41.154 (talk • contribs) .

• Well, I dislike saying this: my edit was inaccurate. Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've been avoiding the admission that I was wrong. However, in the spirit of civility I feel it necessary to "confess". The Presa certainly isn't especially friendly, and your edit seems to defend it. However, since some other editors have come in there has been improvement. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 22:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whipple Mauling

Shouldn't there be some mention of the Diane Whipple case? Asarelah 11:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, at least a "see also."Wachholder0 13:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attacks against People.

While this breed has been thrust into the spotlight by two high profile cases involving unfortunate deaths, it is wrong to characterize this breed (or any other) by these isolated cases.

Why is it that breeds such as the German Shepherd, Rottweiler and APBT have killed upwards of 70 people in several decades, but THIS breed is the one that seems to constantly get edits about the two deaths it has been involved with?

Why is the focus specifically on this breed when the facts do not support it being more dangerous than other breeds where these type of cases are not mentioned?

Not only do I, as a breeder find this is a bad thing for my beloved dogs, it helps to attract an unseemly element to the breed, increasing the difficulty responsible breeders have finding good homes for these dogs.

This is an encyclopedia article, not a place to generate positive publicity for your breed. The attacks against humans are notable and widely publicized. Your comparison with german shepards etc. is not very strong, since these dogs are many, many hundreds or perhaps thousands of times more common around the world. I agree with you that this is an unfortunate situation, but whitewashing is not the answer. By the way, the pit bull article does indeed mention their bad reputation in the first paragraph. Wachholder0 13:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I have tagged this article because the information about human attacks is being removed repeatedly by PdPC breeders. This information should be addressed at least briefly. Wachholder0 13:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that there is no mention of the 6 week old baby who was killed by the pomeranian on its breed page? If this is indeed just an article to educate the public about all aspects of the breed it describes, then I would expect to find listings of all attacks against people on every breed this activity pertains to. So far, other than a casual mention on one page, I have not found that to be the case.

I agree that it is important that people understand this is not a breed for everyone and there are problems that can arise by the improper raising, training and socializing of this and all breeds like it, I think it is equally important that this one breed not be singled out and made to be some evil monster that kills for no reason or the joy of killing.Presa Truth 14:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent point. Perhaps your comments could be the basis of the necessary section? Wachholder0 04:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe the training section gives enough information for the average reader to be concerned and/or warned about the strength and dominance this breed can portray.Presa Truth 10:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias on Either Side should be avoided, its all a POV

Once again someone has decided to put up the two events (Attacks Against People) that put this breed into notoriety. Until and unless we see ALL breeds have their attacks listed in grand fashion for all to gawk over, I believe this section will cause a problem for those of us looking to present the goods and bads in a nuetral fashion. Presa Truth 02:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The really frustrating thing is that someone can just set up a bot to revert to previous changes and not have to come to discuss it with the rest of us who are having a conversation about the very problem. If there is no discussion, how can there ever be a resolution? Presa Truth 06:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The facts surrounding the attacks are not POV

If you want to research every other dog attack on humans and insert that info into each of their own respective articles, go ahead. Simply reporting the two incidents involving Presa Canarios in the presa canario article is perfectly legitimate and does not represent a point of view. If somebody were to say "...therefore presa canarios are killers..." then that would be POV. Nobody is doing that. I don't understand what you are doing. It's more than a little bit weird. Are you OK? Please do not change that section in the article. --AStanhope 13:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Presa Truth is a PPC breeder and has been on a mission to redact this material for months now. Wachholder0 18:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I am not a PPC breeder I am just an enthusiast who has been around 1000s of this breed. This issue was solved some time ago and the NPOV section tag was removed. It was you who came here making changes that stirred it all back up.

I looked around at other breed sites and since I dont see your name listing attacks of other breeds, I think its you on a mission and not me. ~~

[edit] Presatruth

This user Presatruth keep deleting any link to articles about the breed directed to elpresa.com , why? Also the link to the forum was removed once again. Someone should fix the problem and let the people chooose on which sites to be informed about the breed. I would like to understand why this censorship is permitted on wikipedia. The articles on elpresa.com and its forum are appreciated from breed entusiasths from all over the world, this behaviour of this user is unserious. If he has something against elpresa.com it does not give him the right to sistematically remove any link pointing to that community!

Becerillo 21:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Becerillo