Talk:Post-metal

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This article was nominated for deletion on September 6, 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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This genre doesn't exist. It's just made up to (for whatever reason) further categorize bands that already have genres. The 'criticism' topic on the article offers no arguments why it should exist, just that a lot of people think it shouldn't... Evanmontegarde 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)evanmontegarde

It 'exists' in just that way - it creates label for a group of similar-sounding artists whole music is a merge of countless others. A jazz enthusiast might subcategorise genres and styles in a way that someone unfamiliar with jazz will be completely mystified by, and this is a metal/alternative music equivalent. Seegoon 18:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I am a music reviewer for Harm.us and I would be hesitant to create post-metal as a genre. It seems too pretentious too me as a label and further obfuscates already ambiguous and hotly contested genre distinctions. There is no common linkage to these bands. There is no popular or consensual impetus that warrants the creation of this page. I am a music critic by trade and even I believe that this category is merely a ruse to stroke the egos of music elitists so they can pontificate and point to this article as a verification of their outlandish fantasies. 203.214.47.30 13:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

To something to be Post-, the genre before it has to die. Metal is a thriving genre. Post-Rock is also non-existent. Makiyu 19:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Reduction of list 1.1 RE: Removing of Russian Circles 2 Legitimacy 3 Moonty 4 A more coherent debate 4.1 Seegoon's response

[edit] Reduction of list

I've been bold and cut down the list to the most notable exponents of the genre. Many of them were redlinked, or only labelled post-metal by a stretch. I feel any more additions should be more carefully considered, and possibly discussed here. However, for legacy's sake, here's the list as it stands before the edit:

• Agalloch
• Amenra
• Boris
• Conifer
• Callisto
• Cult of Luna
• Fall Time
• From Now On
• Giant (NC band, not late 1980's band "Giant")
• Isis
• Jesu
• Kayo Dot
• Minsk
• Mouth of the Architect
• Neurosis
• Old Man Gloom
• Om
• Pelican
• Red Sparowes
• Rosetta
• Russian Circles
• Silence Kit
• Splintered
• Tides
• Unfold

I can't claim to be an absolute authority on the genre; but niche/redlinked bands don't truly contribute to the encyclopaedic or informative nature of the article. Seegoon 13:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yea to me this this sounds like a BS genre, made up by music critics who think they know everything. Most of these bands don't even sound similar, or can be labeled a legitimate genre. T REX_speak 23:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there is definitely a distinct sound forming/that has formed. Listen to the similarities between albums like Panopticon, The Eye of Every Storm or Oceanic with bands such as Mouth of the Architect, Pelican (band), 1-2 Seppuku, Russian Circles, Red Sparowes etc. etc. etc.. I think there is a case for labelling this. There are a lot of post-rock elements yes, but at the same time, the approach and result are both quite different to what is most often describes as post-rock. Mwhale 06:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Um OK. Anyway, new rule should be enforced here: don't link to redlinked bands. It's a list of notable bands, and if they're notable, they're likely to have their own article. I know this means the removal of some archetypal bands, but until they have their own pages the links are useless. Seegoon 19:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Removing of Russian Circles

They're often referred to as post-metal, but it's hard to find a definitive reference to such. Any ideas? Though they are post-rock, no doubt, they also seem to fit post-metal as well. That's the trouble with post-metal, it's often very close to post-rock, and is thusly difficult to classify without at least some crossover. Thoughts? Moonty 20:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It's an understandable sentiment, but Russian Circles are borderline. And, given the dissent expressed for even having this page, we should probably refrain from including any questionable bands. There are already several decent examples on the list and it would be best to stick with obvious examples. Abbenm 02:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Moonty 04:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legitimacy

I truly believe that some views expressed above are not shared by people who consider themselves fans of the mentioned bands. If anyone feels it will contribute, I could gladly assemble a list of reviews/interviews (and perhaps band biographies) that clearly and obviously associate many of these bands, and that suggest the emergence of a common genre they are all a part of. Here is a quick sample from About.com's Heavy Metal section on Mouth of the Architect's Time and Withering album, second sentence:

http://heavymetal.about.com/od/cdreviews/fr/mouthofarchitec.htm

These kinds of references are easy to find and almost obligatory on sites that regularly encounter and review this type of material, and I will gladly draw up more such references if anyone thinks they would be useful. Also, if you check for any Isis albums on Amazon.com you will find many of the listed bands there as well. You can also read opinions at Isisboard.com (Isis fan community) and see that a large group of people associate these bands in a way that is well-represented by this article.

As for Harm.us, I looked at that site, and they only even review two of the listed bands (Callisto and Mouth of the Architect), with nothing at all on Isis/Neurosis. And, even those two reviews were from an outsider perspective of a generally mainstream metal oriented site, obviously unfamiliar with this common sound that regular fans generally seem well aware of. I respect your site's metal credentials generally speaking, but Harm.us is not familiar these kinds of bands.

In general, I think this article is at least well founded and that it clarifies the standing of these bands, rather than obscures it. -glenstein aka Abbenm 76.179.26.12 04:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

All this proves is that Mouth of the Architect is not an obscure band. This doesn't prove that post-metal is an actual genre and not a term Isis made up. Makiyu 19:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It demonstrates more than that. It proves that people who have encountered these kinds of bands (including music reviewers) ascribe a common sound to all of them, and associate them together in a way well represented by the article.

Also, a short sampling of reviews finds music reviewers using this term to describe them as well. A few reviews which describe the relevant bands as post-metal:

sputnikmusic review on Callisto

Metal Storm review on Mouth of the Architect

IGN on Isis

The Skinny on Red Sparowes

And of course that is just a brief sampling. It is a fact that this term has permeated music circles and that it is used to describe these bands. Abbenm 03:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I know that the most common criticism of the term is that the bands listed tend not to want to identify themselves as "post-metal". But I just think I'll point out promo material for Isis describing them as post-metal in a serious way with not contention about the genre: Southern Records' page on Isis. I know it's not the be-all and end-all, but it does demonstrate record labels wanting to go down that route. Seegoon 14:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Reviewers using the term means absolutely nothing. Reviewers have called Slipknot thrash metal, Children of Bodom black metal, are they correct? It's not a question of whether the term itself is valid - It's a question of whether it's needed, which it isn't. Looking at every band mentioned on the article, they can all be put in subgenres that already exist. It'd be like taking a bunch of death metal bands that sound similar and putting them in "Lifeless Metal" or something. Post-Metal is a term which has no reason to exist. Looking at this list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sludge_metal#Atmospheric_sludge you can see quite clearly that there is a huge overlap with atmospheric sludge (A valid genre that's been around far longer than the term 'post-metal'). What is the point of calling Russian Circles, a post-rock band, and Rosetta, a (mostly) atmospheric sludge band, a new genre when they already have ones that fit perfectly? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Evanmontegarde (talk • contribs) 18:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

I second Evanmontegarde's argument and introduce some more empirical evidence. Post-punk as a genre exists within the journalistic and popular lexicon due to having inherent sonic dissimilarities to it's predecessor while retaining the fundamental aesthetics of it's predecessor. Post-Punk for example utilizes synthesisers and electronic sounds, eschewing distorted guitars - earning it's label as "post." It still retained its anti-establishment stance, retaining the "punk" term. The article describes "advanced lyrical and musical structures" but Post-metal does not feature any production techniques, musical form or lyrical themes that are completely exclusive to this "genre". I am yet to see any such formation of a post-metal "movement" and I believe that those who do are largely imagining it.Crushtor 06:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moonty

Was there something wrong with my line 47 edit that got removed? I'm guessing you just reverted to the version before my edit, because you also restored a misspelled version of the word "reinstatement". There should be some sort of message there however to discourage the addition of bands to the list, and the present message seems to address this only indirectly.

[edit] A more coherent debate

I can see there's a fair amount of back-and-forth here regarding the validity of this genre, and its labeling as such. To work towards a really decent, solid yay or nay, there are some pertinent questions which need answering, from both the pro- and anti-labeling camps. I'll tell you now that I am for the use of the label, so expect a bias in that direction. However, any conceptually adequate, complete argument against it will also bear my full consideration. Here are the important questions - feel free to add more, or respond in whatever constructive manner you see fit.
1. Is there a prominent and cohesive enough musical movement to justify the use of one label for all bands?
2. Do the people using the labels carry enough reputability for us to distil the term from their use?
2b. Bearing that in mind, do said bands self-identify as "post-metal"?
3. Why, among all the myriad names attributed to this genre, is "post-metal" chosen?
I'm sure there are more which I've missed - add any you see fit. Seegoon 19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seegoon's response

I know this is a bizarre concept, but I'm going to respond to my own questions and hope you guys will follow suit.
1. I reckon so. Beginning with Isis and Cult of Luna, we've seen a legion of soundalike bands formed in the past five or so years. Although few of them have achieved the reputation of Cult of Luna or Isis, their influence is clear. I'll name a few: Pelican, Tides, Rosetta, Russian Circles, Fall Time, Callisto, Finger of God, Jakob, Red Sparowes, Mouth of the Architect, Khoma, The Ocean, Transmission0...
2. This is one of the most contentious issues, I'll admit that freely. However, in our sources we can see New York Times journalism and magazines such as Terrorizer and Rock Sound have begun to take it up.
2b. This is another issue. However, it is rare for any band from any musical movement to volunteer themselves into a fixed genre. That said, I've seen Isis promoted as post-metal more than once. I'm talking about a fixed decision by their distributors and record companies. A sticker on the cover of either SGNL>05 or Celestial described them as "post-metal alchemists", and a Southern Records promo sheet also uses the term. I haven't dug around for other bands so much, as Isis' page is a pet project of mine and I focus my attention on that.
3. Another hard-to-answer question. Simply put - it's the only one on which there appears to be some form of consensus. You see "instro-metal" and suchlike banded around, but if you mention post-metal to someone, they tend to know what you're talking about. Likewise, it implies some form of progression from metal, which I believe is a fair piece of conjecture. If you look at post-rock, it isn't so much a direct progression of rock, but an altered perspective on what came before it, over time morphing from one thing into another.
I know these aren't all great points, and I haven't completely convinced myself. However, I hope it'll spur some creative discussion on. Seegoon 19:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The whole creation of the Atmospheric Sludge Metal/Post-Metal is wishful thinking. This whole school of bands who ripped off Neurosis and Godflesh are not Metal atall. To be begin we need to first need to all accept that both founding artists came from “Core” backgrounds and arrived at their sound without influence from Metal. Before claims of “Guitar Tone” get posted you should be aware and hopefully accept the fact that “Heavy” music exists and sometimes it isn’t actually Metal. They have cited their influences many times infact never implying any Metal let alone Doom but rather experimental music and industrial. Lately post-rock has become a even more prominent part of this school of post-hardcore bands. Not alone that but the big players in the school of bands who did infact rip them off also had core backgrounds.

Cult Of Luna’s previous incarnation was a hardcore band. Isis used to be hardcore and their songwriter runs a hardcore label. Neurosis used to be hardcore. Callisto fashion themselves as hardcore and infact share a lyrical theme of Christianity which is very prominent in a number of hardcore bands. Buried Inside call themselves a hardcore band. Pelican members (apart from one) were all involved in “core”.

This page needs to be deleted

--Lysergix 10:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The genre exists, so the article shouldn't be deleted, but perhaps given to a better name, or at least merged with post-rock. The problem is nowadays articles are using 'post-metal' among other terms to describe these bands. I've added to the Criticism section an insightful quote by a Pelican guitarist who says they are more punk and hardcore than metal. –Pomte 10:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)