Talk:Raccoon Dog

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Contents 1 Capital Letter 2 Tanuki and Folklore 2.1 Speciation 3 Conflicting Information 4 Clarification 5 Photo 6 New species 7 Tail movements 8 Introduced Raccoon dogs meet Introduced Raccoons? 9 How is this not a raccoon? 10 Suggested merge 11 Endangered or Taking Over Eurasia? 12 24 out of 25 jackets tested have raccoon dog fur 13 Raccoon Dog -> Modern Japanese Spitz? 14 Soapbox on Steroids 15 Raccoon Dog Or Fur Trade Article? 16 Issues with "The Raccoon Dog and Fur Trade: the other perspective"

[edit] Capital Letter

Why is the article title currently "Raccoon Dog" and not "Raccoon dog"?--Tokek 11:41, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea, maybe the person who created the article didn't know about the naming conventions? Josh 16:18, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Or rather the opposite. Note that all other canids are also following the capitalization of all words for species. - UtherSRG 15:47, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Ah crap, sorry about the name change. --Arekku 18:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tanuki and Folklore

The discussion of the use of the character for tanuki is quite confused. First, that is not the feline radical. Secondly, while declaring that the 'clawed beast' radical version is archaic, the article gives two examples using exactly that radical. Is this a case of traditional and simplified characters, in which case the expression 'archaic' seems incorrect -- or this statement made only in reference to Japanese? --Bathrobe

I removed the the Japanese term tanuki part alltogether. An article about an animal is not the place for a discussion on kanji ethymology, since kanji is never used to write the names of animals or plants in scientific texts in Japanese. The other two paragraphs are just equally confusing and I believe not of general interest. Those interested in regional differences and historical ambiguity regarding the naming of wild animals in Japanese, should be able to read the much better worded Japanese article anyways. --Himasaram 09:11, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. If deemed of interest by others (and by popularity, it seems it might be), I would suggest a new page for the information. JRice 13:42, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

Agreed. As per the below, if we do have to create a seperate tanuki page (and as of the last time I checked, that might be within the near future - about a year or so, if authorities their tails in gear), it can be put on a seperate tanuki page, as then it would have nothing to do with the two other subspecies, anyway.--Mitsukai 15:15, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I've decided to try separating the historical / whimsical 'tanuki' to a separate page. If I were here researching the animal, this information would be of no use to me, though I might want to peek at it, if curious. I felt a separate page was warranted. If there is a need to create a separate species (see below), so be it: we can use a disambiguation, or include the more-cultural information there. -- JRice 15:26, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

[edit] Speciation

As per http://www.canids.org/PUBLICAT/CNDNEWS2/racoondg.htm, there is documentation to indicate that the tanuki (Japanese raccoon dog) is now a seperate species from the Siberian and Chinese raccoon dog subspecies due to speciation. I'll see if I can dig up more information in regards to it, but it may be that we might have to create seperate articles for Tanuki and Raccoon dog in the near future. Anyone else know anything about this? Mitsukai 15:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well I would think that ANYTHING that had a different amount of chromosomes would be a different species. And I don't mean like Down's Syndrome, but a large amount of organisms with the same amount-such as the tanuki.Icelandic Hurricane 21:00, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Let me clarify: does anyone know if the organizations involved have made a final determination? I think I may have seen something regarding the tanuki (as a species name, with a tax of Nycuteres nipponesis), but nothing is coming up in google except for anime references.--み使い Mitsukai 21:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflicting Information

The Raccoon Dog article states "The animal is also known under the Japanese name tanuki...", while Tanuki states "Tanuki are often mistaken for raccoon dogs but they are indeed different animals." So which is which? --Arekku 14:56, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it meant tanuki are often mistaken for raccoons. Brutannica 00:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

---

or perhaps the disputed claim that the Japanese Raccoon Dog is a different (though closely related) species or subspecies vs. the Korean/Chinese types.

[edit] Clarification

I think the correct term for the type of light hibernation the Tanuki goes through is called “Torpor”. -- Neo Piper 17:22, 2006 January 31

[edit] Photo

I changed the photo with a (in my opinion) better one from the Japanese page. MikeDockery 00:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New species

I found a website (see external sites on main article) that says that they have discovered and extinct species of Raccoon Dog; N. abdeslami. Shall we make a separate article on it?Icelandic Hurricane 21:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, should we make an article on N. pacivorus, another extinct Raccoon Dog?Icelandic Hurricane 21:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

If we do make articles on these two species, I call starting them!Icelandic Hurricane 21:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, N. pacivorus doesn't really exist; it's really Speothos pacivorus, I just got them mixed up.Icelandic Hurricane 22:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I also found out about some more extinct species.Icelandic Hurricane 02:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tail movements

What does They do not bark, and they turn their tail into an inverted U to express dominance. mean? Isn't an inverted U the same as a U? I assume this either means the tail is arched over the back like a scorpion or between the legs like a frightened dog? If you know, please clarify... Thanks -SCEhardT 17:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduced Raccoon dogs meet Introduced Raccoons?

Raccoon dogs, as the article mentions, have been introduced in Europe and have populations in Finland and France and Italy. Meanwhile, Raccoons were introduced in Germany and elsewhere in Europe as long ago as the 1930's. There is a fair population in the vicinity of Kessel, I believe.

Have they ever met that people know of? Is there any record of their interaction. They must be competitors for the same niche.

[edit] How is this not a raccoon?

Maybe I am missing something, but it looks pretty obvious by this article that this is a much closer relative to the raccoon than a type of dog. In fact, it seems as if people are going through great pains to note the uniqueness of various features (curved claws, climbs trees, eats berries, hibernates) but maintaining, without explanation, that this creature is in fact a dog, and not the masked raccoon it appears to be and acts very much like.

If this article is to be maintained in this fashion, shouldn't there be an explanation on why this is a dog, and not a raccoon? Has anyone ever tried to interbreed this animal with another type of raccoon? What about other dogs, who are notoriously capable of interbreeding?--216.227.56.70 04:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've been trying to breed them for years with no success. Just a lot of bites and scratches to show for it.

---

Raccoons are a completely different species. The raccoon dog is definitely established by genetic testing as a member of the canidae family -- see that article. Dolphins look a lot like fish.

[edit] Suggested merge

Merge discussion has moved to Talk:Tanuki#Suggested merge with Raccoon Dog.

Please do not leave your comments about the suggested merge here; instead, please leave your comments at Talk:Tanuki#Suggested merge with Raccoon Dog. —Tokek 02:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Endangered or Taking Over Eurasia?

In one place the article says they are endangered or population is declining -- in another that they're spreading out to colonize all of Eurasia.

Which?

And BTW, is there any known factor why they are only now spreading out -- are they taking advantage of built-up human areas (as coincidentally, raccoons do) for foraging? Has some predator been eliminated in their home territory (population expanding there and being forced out) or in the newly colonized areas (used to keep them from expanding)? Or maybe a predator is gone that used to eat something they can now eat instead?... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.233.157 (talk) 12:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] 24 out of 25 jackets tested have raccoon dog fur

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/07/dog.fur/index.html

Sorry if I'm not posting correctly, this is my first time adding to a discussion... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Badbread (talk • contribs) 00:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

Here is a highly shocking video of a supposedly chinese fur farm that shows how they skin the dogs alive, while standing on their heads, hitting them with clubs, smashing them agains the grounds, etc. Some of the dogs are still alive after they skin them and are left to die in a pile of their skinned bretheren, while yelping and writhing in agony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_8Ko-9uKRs Please do not watch if you are already shocked with the description. Watch if you believe people defending animals rights are wrong. My point is, should this be mentioned or linked somewhere in the article? This is the source —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.72.43.176 (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Raccoon Dog -> Modern Japanese Spitz?

Does anyone else notice a startling resemblance? Obviously the spitz are mostly white, but look at the ears, the face, the overall size. --andrew leahey 01:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soapbox on Steroids

Looks like somebody's got a bit of an ax to grind. Don't see anything there that's factual, all of it seems to be silly soapbox arguments in favor of trapping this critter.

Mind, I have no fondness for PETA myself, but you don't produce a sensible product by providing a balanced selection of tripe.

Patently absurd to claim that trapping will not cause a decline in a wild population. You kill off large numbers of animals, the population goes down.

Don't feel like arguing the nonsense though. Can't really approve of trapping it myself, and think that the inverse of the argument in favor of hunting applies here, rather see domestic mutts used myself, but not worth a fight with this crackpot/shill or whatever this guy is.

Nutters like this are why I tried to get away from Wikipedia in the first place, so I won't ger myself worked up about it. This user seems to be here pretty much only to write long soliloquies defending the fur trade though, so I thought I'd point it out.

Have fun. --71.192.117.127 04:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Raccoon Dog Or Fur Trade Article?

I was just made aware of the horrific suffering of these animals at the hands of Chinese fur traders and decided to learn more about them. The article started out informative. Then, I began reading not so much about the creature itself but a rambling piece of propaganda (perhaps Chinese?) supporting, albeit indirectly, the proposition that the savage butchery endured by even one of these animals should be overlooked for the greater economic good it provides to those who take such great pride in inflicting unimaginable pain. I would suggest to the author that the human race no longer lives in the Ice Age and animal fur of any kind is no longer crucial to human survival. The author should stick to the facts about the animal. Raccoon dogs are generally raised in captivity and then slaughtered in gruesome fashion. Why go to the expense and trouble of trapping when you can breed and raise hundreds in cages? Hunter society? These people don't hunt squat! There is no defense, economic or otherwise, for skinning any animal while it is still alive. It is simply barbaric. The very least these people could do is make sure the animal is humanely dispatched in some manner before reaching for the knife.—72.192.70.41 06:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply by poster: The information I posted was in the interests of balance. You may regard the views of the chinese government as propaganda but it is important to see both sides of the story. Some of the films of alleged brutality on fur farms in the far eats remain unsubtantiated....why are the sources not given? Several people have since com forward saying that they wre ofrd large sums of money to stage such a skinning alive and while this could easily be proven wrong by givin the source "farm" that it took place at this is not forthcoming.

You have clearly never been to a western fur farm and I suggest you read the links to the EEC welfare sientists report and also SAGA's site. SAGA are one of the largest producers of fur and their husbandry is renowned. There may well be abuses in China but it is important not to taint the whole fur trade with this accusation. SAGA farm racoon dog. It has always been called Finn Racccoon and the way that the raccoon dog is reprsented as a dog by Animal Rights groups is both misleadinng and in itself is unscrupulous propaganda.

The fur trade in Siberia from where the animals originate has used the animals for fur for centuries. In fact recent archeological evidence suggests the origins of modern human cultural development lie in societies based in that region (30 000 years ago plus)which demonstrate the first evidence of human complex society and trade based on fur. The peoples of that region now include several hundred aboriginal peoples who have ben able to return to a native lifstyle since the collapse of communism. They herd reindeer and hunt and farm furbearers. As their activities have not interfered with the eco system there and their culture is based on respct for nature and sustainable harvest then it can hardly be criticised from an eco perspectiv. In fact their activities act as a barrier to western economic activity such as logging and oil which are habitat destructive. No we are no longer in the ice age but we are only able to survive in the west by exploitation of such raw materials which are non renwable. The native peoples of the region such as the Evenk howver have to survive in temperature sof minus sixty. They rely totally for financial income on sales of furs including fox hare raccoon dog and of course evenkyian gold...the sable.All the ats of the animals are used too.These furs are to be found in fur auctions in Russia and further afield. It may be not now as productive as China, but nevertheless criticism of the chinese fur trade re the raccon dog...should not be levelled at either these peoples or SAGA which farm very humanely. Fur farming in the west for example is the only method of animal farming which practices ethical weaning of the young.

This is not fur trade propaganda and it is up to you whether you follow the links read them and realise that just maybe is you who have been misled by anti fur propaganda.

I agree that there is no excuse for skinning an animal alive. What is more it would be very unwise to do so unless the animal was drugged. A raccoon dog a mink or a fox is quite able to defend itself unlike a chicken or sheep and there would be absoutly no reason that that would be done as standard practice. The normal methods of culling animals in the fur trade are humane and approved by close veterinary inspection in western countries ad to native people a swift death for the animal is part of their animist beliefs. Cervical dislocation is still one of the most common forms of dispatch and this is instant, as is the much maligned electrocution which is far swifter than the mild electrocution used on cows etc before their throats are slit . Meat is no more necessary than fur and in fact is not as defensible from a point of view of energy....a meat meal gives a few days of energy whereas fur can conserve human energy for generations. In fact many aboriginal people will not kill an animal unless all parts are used and the fur is usually the primary motivation. Even in the Canada almost half the poluation of aboriginal peoples are involved with the fur trade. In Greenland it is one of the main ecoomic activities and to people like the Sami and Evenk it is the only one of significance. What all these peoples and many more have in common is that such a lifestyle protects areas of wilderness and have done for centuries.

I hope this answers some of your questions. User Evenkyia2

[edit] Issues with "The Raccoon Dog and Fur Trade: the other perspective"

The recent addition of a new section to this article, "The Raccoon Dog and Fur Trade: the other perspective", appears to be biased and unencyclopedic.

Instead of correctly citing references, the section links to a few PDF files and documents from the Chinese government. Politics aside, news releases from the Chinese government are generally regarded by the democratic world as being biased propaganda.

Given that the section is not written to Wikipedia standards, I have placed a noncompliant tag on it. I chose not to remove it because as much as I disagree with the subject, it might be able to be cleaned up and perhaps merged into a better area of the overall article. The "Use for fur" section would be a good candidate.

The section also makes a large number of grand statements that are not backed up with fact. They have been flagged with "citation needed". Also, the author claims to be an "academic" but offers no credentials backing up this fact.

The following statement appears to be a complete fabrication: "Also the fact that the WWF have introduced areas of traditional hunting use in the region as the best method of conservation; where native peoples are able to hunt sable and raccoon dog fox etc and also sell the furs.".

A search of WWF for the phrase "raccoon dog" only returned two hits: http://worldwildlife.org/bsp/publications/europe/bulgaria/bulgaria23.html http://worldwildlife.org/bsp/publications/europe/bulgaria/bulgaria32.html

The articles only briefly mention raccoon dogs and neither mention the alleged fact that WWF has "introduced areas of traditional hunting". As such I have removed this statement.

216.232.228.33 03:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Add by entry poster: I beg your pardon in rushing the wiki entry but felt tht the ovrall artcile needed urgent address in terms of balance. I have indeed quoted the Chinese but that seemed in order as it is of interest as a defense. The video by PETA is unsubstantiated ( still as far as I know where it was filmed remains a mystery...hardly an academic link then) but that was posted. I wish to remain anonymous here but am an academic. This is not really my field but my own research (which I am not allowed to link here in any case) has touched on this. You do your own research on google? I am not very computer literate unfortuantely so cannot work out how to list the references , but the citataions your requested are now linked. If you look at the sources when pressing the links they are evident. Yes I agree it is not very tidy but is much needed here if the overall article is to have any credibility. I agree that the overall entry could be merged to give both sides of the argument. I have given reliable and reputable sources here from conservation anthropological and economic sources. I have also given things like th Chinese govvernment reponse and also the SAGA fur link as it is important to hear their defence; my field is not western fur farming but have visited several fur farms and have seen raccoon dog well treated. It is very easy to claim cruelty when there is a plethaera of propaganda aginst the industry posted on the net. The EEC report by top welfare scientists (who are often used as a source to back up animal welfare propaganda) is massively important here and is balanced.

I have now postd the link to the WWF area off traditional use and would be obliged if you would kindly take back your remarks about coplete fabrication in line with wiki policy . Thankyou.