Talk:Ratite

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WikiProject Birds To-do: edit MAJOR taxonomic overhaul (see here) Create Galloanserae For new cat: Category:Natural history of the Americas, replace "Hummingbird" article (by Some collaboration, hopefully) an artcle: along title LINE of: Hummingbirds--the bird of the Americas

I have merged the page Struthioniformes here, since the two were talking about the same group, and ratite appears to be the common name. It may be that I made the move in the wrong direction, though, and somebody more familiar with birds should confirm which name is in wider use. Some of the content has been removed, but it was a survey of the particular species included here, and so is repeated on their pages. I am not sure where the moas fit into the suborders given here.

If the terms Struthioniformes and Ratites are synonymous, shouldn't this be stated in the article?

I don't think that merging Struthioniformes with Ratites was a good idea. All of my other sources strongly suggest that all of the ratites, ostriches, elephant birds, emus, moas, rheas, kiwis, etc, all belong to their own seperate orders.--Mr Fink 17:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have come to the same conclusion. While molecular data apparently works either way, there is still Palaeotis. And if this bird is correctly identified as a "proto-ostrich" (and everything suggests it is), it means that its ancestors must have flown to Europe. This does not very well fit into the "one order fits all" aproach. Paleobiogeography tentatively suggests an African origin for the entire group (if it is indeed monophyletic), because the volant paleognaths are all known from Europe and South America, and because the largest diversity appears to have radiated out of Africa (the Struthioniformes sensus stricto, i.e. the ostriches and Palaeotis). Check also http://biology-web.nmsu.edu/houde/Palaeotis.pdf; I have expanded the article to deal with this and will sooner or later add something on ratite evolution pending the accumulation of enough references. Dysmorodrepanis 13:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Forget the "out-of-Africa" scenario. Ostriches appear to be the youngest extant ratite lineage. Current research points towards the ratite morphotype being neotenic and highy apomorphic. There appear to be several ways to achieve flightlessness in birds, such as sheer gigantism (Columbiformes, Galliformes), exaptation (Rallidae), "pure" adaptation (seabirds such as penguins), and neoteny (ratites). Dysmorodrepanis 13:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

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Changing article text below:

Kiwi are notable for laying the largest eggs in relation to body-size of any bird.

To:

Kiwi are notable for laying eggs that are very large in relation to their body size. A kiwi egg may equal 15 to 20 percent of the body mass of a female kiwi.

Reference: Kiwi Myths

Myth 6: Kiwi lay the biggest egg in the world, in proportion to their body size

Although the female kiwi undoubtedly has to cope with a monstrous egg that equals 15 - 20 per cent of her body mass, she is not the most heavily burdened female in the bird world. Small seabirds, such as storm petrels, have proportionately bigger eggs – up to 30 per cent of their weight – and they have to fly with it on board.

Tabor 23:19, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 "Stroppy" 2 Characteristics 3 Extinct species - NZ settlement 4 Hybrids 5 Identify Ratites as an order 6 Fictional ratities 7 Phrasing 8 Farming

[edit] "Stroppy"

The kiwi is described as "stroppy." I can't seem to find a meaning for this word. Is it from New Zealand English? Wachholder0 15:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Stroppy: Obstreperous, noisily and stubbornly defiant (Brit). [dmelliott: 20060304]

[edit] Characteristics

Could the types be presented in some logical order, presumably size?

Could all the same information capsules be presented for each type: height, weight, egg size, habitat, behaviour (ostriches are extremely agressive, while, though not small, the emu is shy, and the kiwi is "stroppy"), etc. Presumably, this is a comparative section. [dmelliott 20060304]

[edit] Extinct species - NZ settlement

While current thinking on NZ pre-European settlement is moving towards an understanding that the first settlers arrived in the 13th century, this is not universally accepted in the mainstream. Some (eg Jim Williams (Ngāi Tahu), of Otago University) would still place the earliest settlement at around 850 AD. DNA analysis of kiore (Polynesian rats) indicates that the rats were in New Zealand about 2000 years ago. This points to a very early landfall, as they must have been brought here by humans, but the belief that there was actual settlement here at that time or earlier is the province of off-the-wall alternative New Age theorists. Copey 2 23:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Strengthens the case of two subsequent colonizations by Polynesians and should be discussed in some Maori- and/or moa-related article. FWIW, the present state of the debate is actually a rewind to some 30 years ago, when it was debated whether the "moa-hunter culture" in the strict sense was actually the first immigration wave only, which might have survived longer on the Chatham Islands (as the Moriori) after they became displaced by the second wave on the mainland. The "blitzkrieg" scenario of moa extinction, according to the two-wave scenario, was merely finishing off an already-depleted population of these birds. Dysmorodrepanis 13:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hybrids

Does anybody know of any instance of hybridization between ratites (Emu X Cassowary, Ostrich X Rhea, Greater Rhea X Lesser Rhea, etc.)? I have searched the internet endlessly and have found nothing on the subject. Has it been tried by ratite farmers? If nobody knows, I would at least like to hear opinions on the matter.

I have been checking this entry daily for weeks and still no answer. PLEASE!!!!!!! the next person to look at this discussion, write your opinion.

Try asking the specialists at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds or at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science. Circeus 16:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I will.

[edit] Identify Ratites as an order

I suggest changing the first sentence to identify ratites as an "order" rather than a "diverse group." Ratites are an order of birds, and the article does not even suggest this fact until the discussion of its evolution. r3 13:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This is actually a good thing. E.g. the fossil record of ostriches strongly suggests against ratite monphyly. To say that "cladistic" evidence (cladistics is a method of interpretation, not of gathering data) for any hypothesis is "strong" is seriously flawed. At present, nobody would really admit to have a solution for the problem; bad choice of outgroups and bad methodology in general have hampered taxonomic research in this group perhaps more than in any other bird clade, and few characters can really considered synapomorphic (as opposed to paleognaths, which by now are a bit better grounded in evidence). Olson, no lightweight exactly, in 1985 argued rather strongly for a closer relationship between ostriches and herons, if one can imagine that (and if, really only because herons have become also quite difficult to place more recently). "Ratites" ATM seem to be mono-or polyphyletic, with the case for the former perhaps a bit stronger, but even paraphyly cannot be wholly discounted. Dysmorodrepanis 20:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional ratities

Is there any actual source that describes Chocobo as ratites? Or is the the assumption of fans based on the fact that it's a flightless bird? If the later, how do you know it's not a Mihirung or something? As this article illustrates, there are many, many forms of flightless birds besides ratites.Dinoguy2 15:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Some chocobos are capable of flight. This would seem to preclude their being ratites. I suspect it's just a guess. In earlier FF games, Chocobos were often thought to be more like large chickens, not the ostrich-like representation in the later and more graphically capable games. M0ffx 15:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I got the idea that they're a ratite from the Wiki article on Chocobos, but if they fly, which, yeah, some species do, then I guess they don't qualify. :) Perhaps it's a different genus, or something. What do I know from avis chocobii? :) -- Unsigned

Calling chocobos ratites is based on them being large, flightless birds with powerful legs for both running and kicking, all traits which are shared by the ostrich (which is the fastest living two-legged terrestial animal, and might even make a good riding animal in real life if not for its temperament). However, they differ from ratites in a number of morphological aspects, notably the shape of the beak and tail. The top of a chocobo's body is concave with a smooth curve from neck to tail, while the top of a ratite's body is convex and then turns upward at a sharp corner when you reach the neck.

Wee, applying rigorous scientific analysis to fictional species is fun! -- Milo

[edit] Phrasing

"Extinct by 1500 due to hunting by human settlers, who arrived around 1000, although at least one species may have survived past this date and maybe was seen by early European settlers."

"At least" can't go with "may" like this. What's the currently accepted theory - were they all dead or weren't they? Aaadddaaammm 21:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course it can (even the last "maybe" can, though it's probably factually wrong). There is uncertainty on whether there was moa survival until European contact, and there is uncertainty concerning the number of species that would have remained at that time. Current mainstream opinion answers with "probably not, but barely so, though the possibility cannot be discounted" and "one". There simply is no accepted theory, only a working hypothesis supported by the majority of researchers. The problem is that the most likely candidate for late survival would not have been encountered by Europeans in any case until later, because it would have survived only because of the remoteness of its habitat. So we're dealing with a hypothesis at present not supportable by the available evidence because that simply does not touch it; the point is that even if the Lesser Megalapteryx survived until after European contact, its eventual demise would most likely not have been witnessed by Europeans, and hardly so by Maori either (The "moa" legends are just that: legends that quite obviously do not refer to a critter encountered within living memory). Eyewitness reports are discountable due to (usually) the place and habitat being wrong. What would be needed is a post-contact radiocarbon date; no such material has been found to date. We do not even know where the last population of the Lesser Megalapterxy lived exactly (i.e., where to search caves for remains). Dysmorodrepanis 13:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Farming

Can the different Ratites (Ostrich, Emu, Rhea) be kept together in the same enclosure, or free range?. - 01:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)