Talk:Saint Joseph

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Contents 1 little known fact 2 Joseph the Betrothed 3 NPOV disputed 4 "Small graven image" or what? 5 Joseph 'Sect'? 6 Title of Article 7 Ecumenical Revisions 8 Requested move 8.1 Voting 9 ... mere humble carpenter 10 Conflicting lines about patronage

[edit] little known fact

I removed the line "It is a little known fact that Saint Joseph is the patron saint of early nights." It seems so little known that I could find no other mention of it, especially in canon. If anyone has any cit. please feel free to add it back. Although it would be helpful to link "early nights" to something that would clarify it a bit, like early nights, or early nights. thanks, milovoo 20:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph the Betrothed

Foster father? Not stepfather? And why is he called "the Betrothed"? RickK 00:23 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Foster father is the normal use among believers. God the Father (Jesus' real father, according to Christians) didn't die, so Joseph couldn't be seen as a stepfather in the strict sense. I think most believers would find "stepfather" extremely offensive and POV. I presume the page is entitled "the Betrothed" because he was betrothed to Mary the first time he is introduced in the Bible. However, I don't think anyone in the world (except for a Wikipedian) would "naturally" look for him here. The most common (though not universal, even among Christians) name would be Saint Joseph, which points to a non-standard disambiguation page.

We can transform Saint Joseph to include the content from here, and make a Saint Joseph (disambiguation) for what's there now. In fact I'll be bold and go do that right now. --Joy [shallot] 12:05, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Next choice would be Joseph, which is also a disambiguation page. Joseph, foster-father of Jesus would be another possibility, but probably too long-winded, and not the first thing that pops into your head, though it parallels Mary, mother of Jesus. Joseph of Nazareth is not all that common, but also redirects here. I don't know hat the "right" title for the page is.... -- Mpolo 08:15, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

This article title is ridiculous. We should move fortwith. john k 07:41, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Joseph from the Hebrew Bible is at Joseph (dreamer). What title do we want for this Joseph? Maybe Joseph (New Testament)? Though that causes doubts with Joseph of Arimathea, I suppose... -- Mpolo 09:26, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

I'll also note that the page List of saints lists this Joseph as a saint in all four major Christian denominations so it seems perfectly fair to place him at "Saint Joseph". --Joy [shallot] 12:21, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This all seems to me to go against Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes. -- Jmabel 13:04, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

(repetition from our talk pages) I think it goes exactly with it, the part that refers to e.g. Jesus Christ, that applies to Saint Joseph. Also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) and Category:Saints. --Joy [shallot] 13:22, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While we'd like to avoid "Saint" in the titles, as Jmabel indicates, we also have to consider what the average person is going to type into the search box (same link as Joy provided). And that is, like it or not, Joseph or Saint Joseph. The only people in the world who are going to type Joseph the Betrothed into the search box are Wikipedians who know that's where it is. A little over half of the links to this page were already going through the redirect for Saint Joseph, I created another quarter of them, so it really does seem to be the common name. (I have moved all or almost all to Saint Joseph to avoid problems if the page moves again.) After some Googling, I found out that "Joseph the Betrothed" is a specifically Orthodox name for the Saint. (774 hits, good fraction of the high-ranking ones being Wikipedia or its clones). For comparison "Saint Joseph" gets 1.5 million hits (of course including place names and building names, so it's not entirely a fair comparison). -- Mpolo 14:11, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

Yup. About the last comment -- it's not an equal comparison per se, but it is still indicative that people called those places and buildings "Saint Joseph", not "Joseph the Betrothed" or anything else, contributing to the notion that Saint Joseph is the most common name for this person, common enough that we should stick with it. --Joy [shallot] 14:17, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I also found this sanctioned by the section about saints in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). --Joy [shallot] 14:07, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV disputed

I think Saint Joseph is POV because I don't think Joseph is not Saint. Please advise.Rantaro 17:12, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry - I can't understand what you are saying here -- sannse (talk) 17:46, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Rantaro, Saint Joseph is the most common name used for this person. That is why the article is here. If you dispute his saintliness, then by all means edit the article. But claim a POV dispute over this is pointless. older≠wiser 17:48, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

I think all the Christian is Saint or holy one and every Christian is brother. I think Christians should not use degree for specific Christian.(Matt.23:8, 9) Rantaro 04:20, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Saint Joseph is the most common name for this person and that follows WP naming policy. This is not the place to wage a campaign for your idiosyncratic beliefs. older≠wiser 12:39, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Who did decide that Saint Joseph is the most common name? (administrators?) I don't know Saint Joseph, and I only know Joseph, foster father of Jesus Christ. You mean Wikipedia adopt Catholic name? I didn't know Wikipedia was Catholic Encyclopedia. Rantaro 01:22, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What exactly do you propose as an alternative? older≠wiser 02:08, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think Joseph (New Testament) or Joseph, husband of Mary (Matt.1:19) is the best name. Rantaro 02:44, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

He's a saint according to four major Christian denominations per list of saints, and "Saint Joseph" is the most common name for him, so please stop this silliness already. --Joy [shallot] 09:52, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We also have an approx. 1200 year convention of his being referred to as Saint Joseph in English generally. That and the likelihood of his article being searched for by this convention settles it for me, at least. Fire Star 20:50, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the whole 'saint' thing is catholic. Protestants aren't gonna like this. :( —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.208.51 (talk) 14:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] "Small graven image" or what?

In the 'Traditions' section of this article, I changed the "small graven image" to "small statue". The whole graven image thing is a bit value-laden to count as NPOV. 64.146.4.31

I wonder who wrote "graven image"? As if that phrase wasn't just a little loaded?! I added detail about it facing away from the house, but this is not important if anyone wants to remove it - I'm sure everybody has their own special tradition. It is interesting that the clergy frowns upon it because it sounds like a pagan custom transposed into Catholicism, of either Roman or perhaps Stregherian origin. Khirad 09:10, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I was quite puzzled about this in the article until I read the above. It seemed to me right from the beginning that the original contribution did not stem from a native English speaker or was a translation. The whole passage sounds rather laboured and is difficult to knock into shape without knowing the details of the pious custom that the original contributor had in mind. Reading now above that the original had "small graven image", I propose, what I had always been wondering, whether a medal of Saint Joseph is meant. It is a well-known custom to use medals of saints for this purpose, also when desiring to buy or rent a particular property. 21:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The end of the article is ambiguous, it states that he is sainted just because he is a dead Christian. We need to find out if he is a beatified saint or if it is just convention to call him saint. Unfortunately, listing that he just happens to be a saint according to all the religions is not enough. Joseph is a saint because the canonization process did not use the modern criteria for choosing a saint until the 10th Century. (http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php) Whereas Roman Catholicism recognizes Joseph as a true saint, it still remains convention to refer to him as Saint Joseph without necessarily adopting the Catholicism interpretation of sainthood. Just as it is convention to call Francis of Assisi, Saint Francis of Assisi.

[edit] Joseph 'Sect'?

Joseph always seemed to me to be the 'forgotten man' in the story of Jesus' life. Mary, for obvious reasons, is central to certain 'wings' of the Christian church, but I'm curious to know if there is (or has ever been) a Christian sect or movement which places particular importance on Joseph. Adambisset 21:47, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hehe. Joseph was not always the "forgotten man"! There were times he was outright ridiculed. In the Middle Ages, they thought his story excessively funny. Think about it: here's a man, married but denied having any sex, cuckolded, his wife gives birth to a child not his own, and the poor sob must take care of the baby and all that! Our ancestors apparently found this overly hilarous, and I, the relatively devout Catholic, can't say I disagree with them. Joseph was a comical character in the miracle plays, he was depicted in a funny manner on paintings (especially by the Flemish masters; good example is Melchior Brodederlam's Flight to Egypt: http://www.wga.hu/art/b/broederl/02right3.jpg - Joseph is the drinking figure on the far right; notice that, unlike Mary and Jesus, he's not idealized at all; notice his rags, his figure, his mien). In literature he was depicted as a figurehead chosen by God to "appease those who would call my [viz. God's] son a bastard" -- medieval logic. The folklore held he was the patron of cuckolded husbands; husbands cheated on were supposed to lament to Joseph, who "had the very same fate". Huizinga devotes a longer part to this medieval "anti-cult" of Joseph in the Waning of the Middle Ages. As he writes, The circumstances of Jesus' conception were very fascinating to medieval mind (as they're still fasctinating to the immature persons amongst us), and this fascination was outright gleeful when it came to Joseph's role.

The Church, of course, disapproved this whole thing, but not a lot was done (aside the usual gentle and useless scolding - the medieval Church did not really mind theological deviations in the folklore so long as the Church was obeyed) until the late 14th-early 15th century, thus until the time of the Devotio Moderna and similar reformationist movements. Jean Gerson, theologian, Chancellor of the University of Paris, who generally disapproved the excessive veneration of saints, was the first to restore some of Joseph's dignity: he practically invented the modern Joseph, venerated because of his chasity, humility, hard work, etc, etc, the positive aspects previously neglected in the folklore. Then Gerson declared that Joseph was transferred bodily to heaven, that's why the circumstances of his death are so obscure. Now, Gerson was a very clever and charismatic man, and he managed to get his ideas accepted by the commoners and the reformist wing of the Church alike, and that's where the modern veneration of Joseph began, and that's where I'll finally answer your question: Joseph's cult flourished in France, notably in Champagne the Lyons area and the Lowlands in the 15th-16th century. His popularity reached its peak in the late 15th century, when he got his feast day. By this time his cult was popular throughout the West. Then came the Renaissance, came the policy of the Church to alienate the saints from the commoners (by dressing them in togas, etc, etc), and the cult slowly ceased to exist. Since that Joseph's no longer the parody of a saint he used to be. A few monastic orders were founded in Joseph's honour during the Counter-Reformation, then several more in the 19th century, all in France and the Lowlands. Most of them were destroyed during the Revolution or during the pre-WWI French anticlerical measures. That's about it. Sorry for being this long-winded. SáT 00:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

An Eastern Orthodox take on this topic: http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/articles_a/joseph.htm. [User: igk, 7 November 2005 10:50 (EST)]

[edit] Title of Article

It seems like the title of this article should be changed, since "Saint Joseph" is specific to Roman Catholicism, while Joseph plays a role in all Christian faiths. Do Orthodox Catholics name Saints?

Being a Wikipedia newbie, I did not want to take the somewhat drastic step of changing the name of an article.

I disagree..being Evangelical (non-Roman) Catholic and not holding to canonization, I do not find Saint Joseph to be an innappropriate title, if one holds to the belief that all Christians are Saints (and one must assume Joseph believed in Christ by his actions). Peace, Jarrod Jabre 20:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ecumenical Revisions

I modified the text and layout in order to present a more ecumenical view; even in this, I'm Evangelical Catholic, so may have missed or misrepresented other traditions, so I invite further revision. My main focus was to denote what was Roman Catholic tradition versus Reformed belief, and add some commentary on the latter. I also added a brief bit on the Josephite Order, which seems like it should be mentioned. This is my first major revision or addition, so comments are welcome.

Peace Jarrod Jabre 20:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Talk:Saint Joseph — Saint Joseph → Joseph of Nazareth – Saint implies certain branches of Xianity (RCC and EOC come to mind) when used as a Title. Jospeh of Nazareth is best avaiable option. Requires adminstrator because of existing history Tznkai 05:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support as requester. when Saint is used as a title, it implies certain branches of the Xian religion. I highly doubt that critical scholarship calls him "Saint Jospeh". The use of "saint" as in "all the saints" refers to those belevoed or respected within most Xian churches because of their proper devotion to God, but implies a POV, a judgement on Joseph's piety.--Tznkai 05:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'd support it if we then went back and eliminated the usage of the word in all areas of Wikipedia; you are correct in saying that scholarship would call for his name not including the word, and I will change my support if we can get consensus to change the way all such articles are named. If we speak strictly on religious terms, my opposition stands, since aside from certain POVs the word still stands correct, even in Reformed theology. Peace, Jarrod Jabre 19:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose: Saint Peter is not at Pope Peter, although he should be according to present naming conventions. Use common sense, & common name of course. --Francis Schonken 16:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Not moved. —Nightstallion (?) 08:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ... mere humble carpenter

The Greek term chosen (tektōn, cf. Matthew 13:55) suggests that Joseph was by trade a skilled craftsman, although in art he is portrayed as a mere humble carpenter.

Carpenters are skilled craftsmen. A better explanation of the distinction is warranted here if tektōn does not apply to carpenters. --Kbh3^rdtalk 16:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my long experience with English carpenters... no offence intended, I love the English.

Maybe this settles the matter:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.reflookup=tektwn;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23102910

20:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflicting lines about patronage

Hello, while on RC Patrol, I noticed someone inserted a character by one line. That line read this saint had no official patronage. But, on another line it is said he does have patronages as well in his infobox which has a reference to a site that lists many patronages. Could someone copyedit this to make it correct one way or the other? Morenooso 23:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)