Talk:Schutzhund

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Dogs Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dogs, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Canines on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
Article Grading: The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Contents 1 Training section 2 VDH 3 GSDs Only? 4 Courage 5 Other breeds 6 Unencyclopedic, Subjective, POV, etc 7 Restored Introduction

[edit] Training section

As I have written the training section I find that it does not provide any information on actual training methods. Each time I started to write a description of actual training techniques I found that there would be too many caveats. Schutzhund training, especially protection training, is fairly specialized and difficult. It is not something that can be easily or accurately described in just a few paragraphs. In the end I wrote about training resources. I would appreciate comments as to whether this is sufficient or should I try to provide descriptions of actual training. Dsurber 00:32, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that it would be hard to discuss training techniques in detail. Can you give just some brief examples? For example, for dog agility, I might say that "training techniques and what a handler desires in his dog's performance vary greatly. For example, techniques for training the weave poles include using offset poles that gradually move more in line with each other; using poles that tilt outward from the base and gradually become upright; using wires or gates around the poles forcing the dog into the desired path; putting the hand in the collar and guiding the dog through while leading with a toy or treat; teaching the dog to run full speed between 2 poles and gradually increasing the angle of approach and number of poles; and many other techniques." Hmmm, I like that, guess I ought to put it into the agilty article. Elf | Talk 05:09, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm confused by the statement in the article that most dog trainers don't use clickers. In my experience most do - particularly when preparing a dog for agility - but I don't know about Schutzhund. Is this statement meant to apply only to Schutzhund trainers? --Laura Scudder | Talk 18:45, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the not using clickers applies to Schutzhund trainers only, not trainers in general. Lachatdelarue (talk) 21:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Clicker training is a variant of marker training, i.e., marking good behaviors with a physical or verbal cue appealing to the dog. ("Yes!" "Good dog!" etc.). Marker training is definitely used by protection sports enthusiasts of all stripes, and certainly the vast majority of modern Schutzhund trainers. They don't use clickers because they're annoying, can't be carried on the field (and certainly can be forgotten in practice)and are a poor substitute for actual handler/dog interaction and bonding via verbal and food-

[edit] VDH

Under Organization, the statement: "The VDH, .........., is the body that sets the rules for Schutzhund for all breeds." is not correct. For the record, it is the AZG that sets Schutzhund rules. Here is a bit more info: http://realgsd.ca/GSDinfo/Papers/SV/dogorg.htm

The internal link "VDH" needs correcting, as I'm assuming it's not supposed to go to the "Victor Davis Hanson" article. I would fix it myself, however I don't know the full name of the club, as it's never explained in the article. Pharaoh Hound 22:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GSDs Only?

Is this for German Shepards only or all dogs. This article is very confusing. --24.94.189.11 03:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Courage

NOT JUST MORE DETAILS BUT IN DESPERATE NEED of some OBJECTIVITY! How exactly does a dog display traits such as courage so that it is recognizeable??? Personally I beleive its quite true that dogs display courage, but a wikipedia article should not be an advertisement of propaganda. I don't think courage can be recognized on sight in humans or any other species. Courage is exposed in specific actions and in situations. Different language should be used, specifically behavioral terms such as 'lack of fear or panic responses as evidenced by body language; movements, stance and positioning around other people and dogs.' Talk about 'seeing courage' is pure marketing.

Courage in a dog is defined by several things. While not the most experince Schutzhund trainer, I do know how to present some basics:

1. While under pressure, the dog bites the center of the sleeve with a full calm firm grip.

2. While being driven (hit with a padded stick while the helper runs forward), the dog continues to bite the sleeve and does not let go, does not shift his bite/grip.

3. The dog searches the blinds for the helper without the immediate back up of his handler, who is still walking across the field. The dog is confronting the helper alone in hold and bark (barking directly in front of the helper to hold him in place) and without avoidance of the confrontation.

4. The dog confronts a charging helper in the courage test, hits the sleeve in the center, and does not let go.

Dogs that hit the sleeve offcenter are sometimes displaying a lack of confidence. Dogs that don't bite and hold full, but shift their grips or let go also display a lack of confidence, and therefore, a lack of courage. They are not sure about what is going on.

This is interesting. Is Courage and "courage tests" terms specifically used in Shutzhound training? The previous poster uses confidence and courage interchangeably, but I'd hate to be the one telling a proad dog owner their dog lacks courage, while saying a dog lacks confidence is much more politic. Is that the only difference? Cuvtixo

[edit] Other breeds

Why isn't it mentioned that many international schutzhund organisations permit many other breeds to compete in Schutzhund (malinois, dutch shepherd, dobermann, rotweiller, american staffordshire terrier, etc). Schutzhund might have been invented as a test for GSD, but today, many other breeds take part quite successfully. Rachel 13:14, 20 Oct 2006(UTC)

The following quote is taken from the History section. Seems clear to me.

Dogs of any breed, even mixes, can compete in Schutzhund today, but the most common breeds are GSDs, Belgian Malinois, Rottweilers, Doberman Pinschers, Giant Schnauzers, Bouvier des Flandres, Dutch Shepherd Dogs, and the like.

Dsurber 23:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC) (I moved this to the end as Discussion pages are in chronological order.)

--- Agreed. If you look here you can see that Schutzhund DID NOT spring exclusively from a effort to refine GSD, but rather a non-breed-specific police dog club. This article regards the participation of all other breeds as an afterthought. What about Boxers and Hovawarts? As written this article exemplifies GSD chauvinism. --TateMcLeod 21:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unencyclopedic, Subjective, POV, etc

Like so many of the pet articles, this one reads as if it were copied and pasted from the poorly-designed GeoCities page of some backwater puppy mill or uneducated "training consultant". Sure, it's no worse than the typical Wikipedia article about "Simpsons" minutia or my friend's band, but the list of links to photocopied propaganda pamphlets pushes this one below the usual standard of article quality. Thus, Request for Deletion is the next logical step.

While in many aspects this article has come a long way- there's still disputable material. While a big fan of Karen Pryor myself, I'm not sure that the specific books mentioned really belong here, unless as a reference at the end. Some mention of Behaviorism and Operant Conditioning on the other hand, might be appropriate (or not?) Cuvtixo

[edit] Restored Introduction

I restored the introduction that was gutted by an IP address back in December. It is an introduction and should provide more context than the bald recital of facts that remained. No question the article needs work, but wholesale deletions are probably not the right direction. Dsurber 00:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Passing through on my way back to wikiretirement (or hiatius)--I rephrased the intro a little to clear up a couple of things and try to be a little less POV, but I haven't researched the origins so it might still be incorrect about the "developed for GSDs" concept. Elf | Talk 21:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)