Talk:Separation of church and state in the United States

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This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute.
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1 Merging
2 Philosophical discussion
3 First Amendment Fails to Pass Popular Muster?
4 James Madison
5 Other direction
6 Letter to Virginia Baptists
7 Clarification
8 Background
9 Stub Section "Federal Court Decisions"
10 Religion in the state constitutions
11 Thanksgiving
12 founding fathers were deists?
13 Thumbing nose at NPOV
14 Controversy section
15 Abortion, euthanasia, and same sex marriage
16 Interpretive controversies
17 Discussion of the early disputes over church and state
18 Rename proposal
19 Merge proposal
20 reliability of anonymous sources
- 20.1 Practices of the Jefferson and Madison administrations
21 Former state churches in British North America
22 Hutson is not a reliable source
23 Get rid of the "Controversy over the intentions and views of America's founding fathers" section?
24 Blasphemy laws and the Establishment Clause

[edit] Merging

I think it is a bad idea to merge this article with the Seperation of church and state because the events around this in thie United states have so much information and is so specific to the creation of the United States of America that the merged article would become to lenghty, would be hard to maintain and citation/referencing would become a nightmare section in itself. Speaking of which the article lacks sufficient referencing. Lord Metroid 14:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a bad proposal, if that was what was proposed. But as far as I can gather, this was to merge a section from that article into this one (see "Merge proposal") below. The discussion petered out, though, so you can safely remove that tag if you like. Lewis Collard 14:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philosophical discussion

Dropped this from the head of article:

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." —James Madison

s This appears to be a misattribution or a conflation of a Madison statement with Jefferson. It's undisputed that Jefferson was the one who originated "separation of church and state" - Madison's non-use of the phrase is significant because he (not Jefferson) is regarded as the principal "author" of the First Amendment. Ellsworth 15:37, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As much as I love this country, I think separation between church and state is wrong. If we kept our Christian values we would have fewer problems altogether. If a couple of people got a bunch of people riled up, that isn't everyone's opinion. We just don't feel it necesary to go protest and go crazy for every little thing. the Ten Commandments aren't hurting anybody, so they should have stayed. This Christmas without Christ is bothering me. He is the reason for the season and if some people dont like it well they can leave. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.110.215.80 (talk • contribs).

What a bigotted statement. First of all Christmas isn't a real christian holiday to begin with. It is a pagan holiday that christian organized authority replaced with what they seemed more fit because otherwise people would have been more resisting to christianity. For every christian that doesn't celebreate christmas, because their are many different branches of all religions that practices their religion in different ways. This is why the seperation of church and state exists. So that no one needs to be forced by the point of a gun from the government to worship and practice religion in a state-decided way. That is what many of the citizens of the colonies had fled from in the first place. If you like to have a state religion, may I suggest moving to teh Arab-emirates? And you'll see how fun it is to have a state-religion! Lord Metroid 14:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Amendment Fails to Pass Popular Muster?

Does anyone know if it is true that one of the major polling organizations, perhaps Gallup, acutally polled a representative sample of the American public a few years ago and presented the First Amendment as a proposed new law and found that the majority of those polled (at least a plurality if not a majority) found it unacceptable, even somehow subversive? I could see this being an urban legend, but, sadly, somehow I could also easily see it as being true.

Rlquall 18:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] James Madison

Although Thomas Jefferson is normally the Founding Father cited when the topic of Seperation of Church State is raised, James Madison is largely responsible for drafting the United States Constitution, not Jefferson. Because of this often overlooked fact and the abundance of writings that we have from Madison to examine, many historians feel that he is the superior choice when trying to detangle the original intent of the Founding Fathers regarding the U.S. Constitution, religion and state's rights.

What did Madison have to say about the Separation Clause? Nothing at all as it was not a term that the Founding Fathers would have been familiar with in their time. Madison did however also pen the Virginia Consitution, and has left us clear personal opinions on his views of religion and it's place in state and federal government.

"For where there is such a variety of sects, there cannot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest. Fortunately for this commonwealth, a majority of the people are decidedly against any exclusive establishment - I believe it to be so in the other states. There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation. I can appeal to my uniform conduct on this subject, that I have warmly supported religious freedom. It is better that this security be depended upon from the general legislature, than from one particular state. A particular state might concur in one religious project. But the United States abound in such a variety of sects, that it is a strong security against religious persecution, and is sufficient to authorize a conclusion, that no one sect will ever be able to out-number or depress the rest."

Clearly Madison was quite concerned about the preservation of religious freedom, and felt that America's diversity would ensure that no single sect would ever dominate the new American government. Rather than using a term that he was unfamiliar with (seperation of church and state), Madison gave us the term exclusive establishemnt.--67.78.7.190 18:15, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Two of the 12 original Amendments which Madison proposed pertained to religious liberty.

One proposed Amendment was to constrain the federal govenrment. It passed (with some changes to the wording) and was subsequently ratified by the States and became our First Amendment. Neither Madison nor anyone else intended for it to constrain the States.

The other proposed Amendment was to constrian the States. It was defeated in Congress. It read, "No State shall violate the equal rights of conscience, or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases." It would have restrained the States to a lesser degree that the federal government is (supposed to be) constrained by the First Amendment, and it would have not gone so far as to prohibit official State establisments of religion. Nevertheless, it was defeated by those who thought it encroached upon the proper role of the State constitutions, inasmuch as the purpose of the U.S. Constitution was to define the scope, powers & duties of the federal government, not those of the States.

So the bottom line is that Madison thought that the Constitution should constrain the States by guaranteeing a "right of conscience" to U.S. citizens, but knew that it did not, because the Amendment which would have done so was defeated. Also, he did not advocate the much more radical step of a federal constitutional provision to force disestablishment of the official Christian churches which then were law in many States and towns. 71.70.174.75 20:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other direction

This article contains no information about separation of church and state from the other direction, such as the tax-code bans on what ministers may preach or state participation in religious weddings. -Acjelen 15:26, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Letter to Virginia Baptists

The actual letter does not contain the phrase "separation of church and state"; it was in a comment by the editor of Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government, a collection of Jefferson quotes. See [1]. The actual letter is available at [2] and is entitled "TO THE GENERAL MEETING OF CORRESPONDENCE OF THE SIX BAPTIST ASSOCIATIONS REPRESENTED AT CHESTERFIELD, VIRGINIA. WASHINGTON, November 21, 1808." --Wasabe3543 03:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

1802 "building a wall of separation between Church and State"--JimWae 03:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

What does the following mean?

It is commonly accepted that, under the doctrine of Incorporation - which uses the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as the vehicle by which the protections and restrictions of the Bill of Rights are applied to the states - they could not be reestablished today.

Could someone clarify it for those amongst us who aren't U.S. constitutional experts? For instance, what is the "Due Process" clause of the 4th amendment? - Ta bu shi da yu 23:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

There's a Wiki article that addresses this exact subject: Incorporation (Bill of Rights). Maybe we could integrate some of the content of that article here, or at least link to it. Thoughts? David 09:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It looks like the Incorporation (Bill of Rights) link was already added; I'm not sure if it was there all along. I went ahead and also added links to the articles on Due Process and the Fourteenth Amendment in the text. David 20:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It isn't "commonly accepted" at all. It has been recently (just over 40 years ago) accepted by the SCOTUS. For nearly a century, the notion that the Due Process clause somehow transformed the First Amendment into a prohibition against State and local establishments of religion was unheard of. More importantly, it was unheard of until the people who wrote and ratified the 14th Amendment were all safely in their graves (along with most of their grandchildren).

It was unheard of because it is absurd. The plain language of the First Amendment explicitly limits its scope to the federal government, only. "Congress" is the federal legislative branch, only.

In fact, the Establishment clause is a prohibition against federal interference with State and local official religious establishments: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religon." The word "respecting" meant then exactly what it means now, which is "having to do with." The establisments of religion referred to were the existing official church affiliations which most States (and many towns) then had established. The prohibition is a prohibition against federal interference with those establishments of religion.

Since the very first sentence in the body of the U.S. Constitution gives all federal law-making ("legislative") authority to Congress, a prohibition against Congress making a law is simply a prohibition against that federal law.

In other words, the activist SCOTUS of the last half of the 20th century turned the meaning of the Establishment Clause upside down, and ruled that it means almost precisely the opposite of what the plain language says and the intended meaning is.

71.70.174.75 18:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no, it's not activist SCOTUS in the last half of the 20th c. In the 1879 decision Reynolds v. U.S., for example, the court observed that Jefferson's writings "may be accepted as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment."--Vidkun 19:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the 1879 decision Reynolds v. U.S. debated the 'free exercise' clause. They used Jefferson's idea that the doctrines of religion were not above the law. For instance, I can't have human sacrifice simply because my religion requires it. However, the 'establishement clause' was not debated in SCOTUS until 1947 (Everson case); after all the established churches were long disestablished.--Uwops 10:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background

I'm changing back the edits made by 12.178.96.81, with a few changes I hope will satisy that person. The reason, if the editor would like to discuss it here, is that the remainder of the paragraph goes on to discuss people and events of the 17th and early 18th centuries, so it's apprpriate to keep those centuries as they are. I edited the sentence to make it clearer that this occurred before the United States was its own country. David 09:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stub Section "Federal Court Decisions"

Howdy All,

I just noticed that the section "Federal Court Decisions" under this article is marked as a stub. I'll be working on it soon, and would appreciate suggestions that someone might have. I guess I'll start by:

Adding much more Federal Court Cases relating to Separation of church and state in the United States
(Your suggestions here)

Also maybe the whole article could use a whole lot more in-depth information concerning the Separation of church and state debate. (Like the two opposing sides and what info backs up each side???)

Thanks - and your ideas are (in advance) greatly appreciated, --EChronicle 00:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The 19th century Supreme Court decisions such as Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S. (1892) and Mormon Church v. U.S. (1890) that took a more accommodationist view of Christianity and the state are missing. Taken within the context of the developments in Church state jurisprudence since the 1790s, I think they are relevant.

Also, state supreme court decisions from the early years of the American republic and their interpretations of the establishment clause also is relevant. It shows how the states viewed the establishment clause. --Pravknight 18:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion in the state constitutions

I also think examining the role of religion in the constitutions of the 50 states after the ratification of the federal establishment clause should be looked at too. Unlike the federal constitution, the majority of them are explictly theistic, and some are even explicitly Christian. --Pravknight 18:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanksgiving

This may be slightly trivial, but why is "the annual holiday of Thanksgiving...clearly [a] violation if strict separation is implied"?

I was under the impression that the holiday has no history with religious affiliation (besides the significance of Puritans being the first group) and its page even cites it as a cultural holiday as opposed to a religious one. I didn't edit it because I could be horribly naive and would like someone more knowledgeable to clear it up. Thanks.--Yourmotherisanastronaut 04:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] founding fathers were deists?

This assertion is not supported by the link. Jefferson may have not been a religious person, but that does not mean he opposed organized religions like deists. Furthermore, the wording uses weasel words claiming that the founding fathers were deists...not some but MOST! Find a link that says the founding fathers were deists and opposed organized religion and the sentence stays. If not, it goes. ER MD 08:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC) A couple of them from what I have seen being mentioned on various sites on the internet(Not a reliable source) were deitist. Many branches of religion was represented by other founding fathers though. Lord Metroid 14:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thumbing nose at NPOV

"They are monitoring the rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party and the movement among popular evangelicals to transform the United States into a theocracy."

Is it possible to be more blatantly POV-biased than that? Is this an encyclopedia article or a Michael Newdow blog? 71.70.174.75 18:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I see that ER_MD has deleted that sentence [3]. But merely deleting the description and leaving Kkinder's link[4] does not make this article less POV-biased. It just makes the bias less obvious. Kkinder's sentence is an accurate description of the claimed purpose of that extreme Left fringe web site. 71.70.174.75 18:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy section

We don't have a Controversy section, and this is a very controversial law. So why don't we add a section here? Falconleaf

[edit] Abortion, euthanasia, and same sex marriage

Abortion, euthanasia, and same sex marriage heavily involve separation of church and state, but they are nowhere in this article. Separation of church and state has more information than this, the main article.

[edit] Interpretive controversies

I've reverted changes made in these three edits (which, oddly, were all tagged as minor). I think the old wording, rather than containing 'weasel words', was careful to provide the facts neutrally, without trying to play up one standpoint or the other. The newer revision, however, clearly attempts to make too much of references to a god - for example, rewording to imply to the casual reader that all four references to a creator actually used the word 'God' and calling the use of the phrase 'The Year of our Lord' 'Christian language' - it was a common term at the time, as that's what Anno Domini (or AD) means in English. I know plenty of Atheists who use the terms BC and AD. -- Vary | Talk

[edit] Discussion of the early disputes over church and state

Jefferson and Madison may get all of the press; however, they faced strident opposition to their interpretation separation of church and state in their own lifetimes. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story stood as both men's nemesis for close to 20 years.

This should be discussed too. [5] [6] [7] --Pravknight 19:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename proposal

I know exactly why in the US "seperation of church and state" is used as meaning "sep. of religion and state", but I feel that the current title show a clear systemic bias and is weaselly. It is eurocentric to claim that "church" is used figuratively, in that case why don't we rename it to "seperation of mosque and state", while claiming that mosque is used figuratively in the same way? :)) It really does sound weird to talk (or plan to talk) about Islam, Hinduism and Judaism under "seperation of church and state". I believe the use of "church" is not appropriate and shows systemic bias. I am atheist, so it is not because I am particularly offended or anything, it is just logical and rectifies the systemic bias that I mentioned. Just because that's how it was written in the US Constitution 200 years ago doesn't mean we have to do so today in Wikipedia. :))) The current title should be a redirect to "Relations between religions and state in the US", or if that's too wordy "Secularism in the US". I will be starting an article named "Secularism in Turkey" in the same way. Of course with such a rename, it will be talked about, most probably in the intro, how the US Constitution refers to it as "seperation of church and state". I am not proposing this not to favor or minimize a religion or anything, it is just to give it a more contextual approach since this is a constitutional term and not just the general history of the relation between churches and state in the US. Baristarim 03:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It's called that because non-Christian religions in the United States were almost completely insignificant from a political point of view until at least the early 20th century -- and also because several of the British North American colonies and early U.S. states in fact had official government-established Churches. The word "church" does not actually appear in the United States constitution, so that has nothing to do with it... The role of Wikipedia is to reflect the terms which are used in the real world, not to apply abstract logic to produce new terminology that we think should theoretically be used instead. "Secularism in the US" would be an interesting article, but it wouldn't be quite the same as thbis article. AnonMoos 23:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Secularism in the US"
Support
Oppose
"Relations between religions and state in the US"
Support
Oppose
Comments

[edit] Merge proposal

There is a whole section in the article Separation of church and state that was copied from this page. That section should be here. Jcbohorquez

Which one? Collard 06:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reliability of anonymous sources

The section copied from the Library of Congress webpage is unsigned and unsourced. It shows heavy POV as well, and does not refer to ANY of the massive number of books and articles on the subject written by experts. Therefore it fails the criteria of a reliable source written by experts. Rjensen 14:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I must agree. Displays at the Library of Congress are subject to political pressure, and are therefore not preferable to printed sources. This is in any case unreasonably extensive quotation from a source without any evidence that it is in the public domain. I subjoin it here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You people are really stretching for reasons to hate this LOC verified and sourced information, aren't you? Well, the facts remain as they are, and are very well sourced if you'd only care to open your minds....and maybe READ the LOC source documents. --Mactographer 08:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Mactographer on this one. Yes, the Library of Congress may be an "anonymous source", but that does not make it a non-credible one. The Library of Congress is a respected institution. That "[d]isplays at the Library of Congress are subject to political pressure" means nothing; show me an organisation on the planet that claims to have no political biases whatsoever and I will show you a pack of liars.

By the way, regarding "unreasonably extensive quotation from a source without any evidence that it is in the public domain", it is a work of the United States' Federal government, and therefore, it is in the public domain. Even if it were copyrighted, quoting an entire paragraph almost certainly qualifies as fair use, if properly attributed.

If you think that the LOC's exhibit is contrary to any other evidence from credible sources, then please feel free to cite that other evidence. If not, then you have no reason for rejecting it.

(BTW, Mactographer, try to calm the rhetoric a little. :))

The upshot: I've restored the disputed snippet, with some minor changes that should make it more acceptable. Lewis Collard 07:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

...And the edit got reverted without explanation. I fail to see what is so objectionable about the new wording (diff here). It doesn't fail the POV test anymore since it merely states what the LOC have to say, and it is as good as any source which anyone else has cited in response (which is to say, none). Oh well. Lewis Collard 14:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that removing the rant about "Despite what contemporary sources have to say..." was an improvement. However, the long quote about the state becoming the church on Sundays is POV-pushing nonsense; the evidence amounts to Jefferson attending worship services at the Capitol; there are still services at the Capitol nowadays. Jefferson's biographers would disagree that he "consciously and deliberately [was] offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government"; this is as bad logic as it is grammar: he was going to church. Madison certainly deplored worship on national property, as no service either to the functioning of government or (more importantly) to religion (see the link to his memoranda in the article); and Madison's version of the Bill of Rights opposed religion established by the States as well as by the General Government. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Pardon me, but since when is saying, "Oh, to the contrary" considered a "rant?" --Mactographer 21:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Being a quadruple negative is a good start. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

??? --Mactographer 23:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You say Jefferson's biographers would disagree. In that case, as I've hammered into the ground several times in the discussion below this: cite them as an opposing view, rather than deleting the material in question. As for "POV-pushing nonsense", accurately describing a particular POV (which was all the revised piece did: it accurately reported what the LOC had to say, and attributed it to them) is not the same as "pushing" it. Lewis Collard 22:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph was POV-pushing when originally written; quoting it in extenso still is. (POV-pushing exists outside WP; part of the judgment of finding a reliable source consists of recognizing it.) Quoting is also giving undue weight to a minority view, unsupported by the evidence it cites. As for the fact asserted, it's in our article now. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I see you buried it as much as you could. BTW, how can a fact be considered a minority view? The facts are what they are ... which is that multi-Christian denominational church services were held on and inside federal property from the 1800’s toward the civil war era. And by extension we can assume that this practice was in full support of the public and state officials since there is no written record to the contrary. I repeat, there was NO PUBLIC OR STATE objection to this practice as observed by the contemporary record. This is NOT a viewpoint -- minority or otherwise -- this is supported by the many historical documents the LOC site displays on the site. BTW, I see we've lost all argument to the "anonymous sources" issue now. How many more arguments will we "find" to bury this extremely pertinent data regarding the mindset of the "authors" of our hotly debated "modern interpretation" of this concept? --Mactographer 23:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Guys, let's chill a little. This has gotten a bit uncomfortably heated for me. I've edited in the LOC claim about "the state became the church", but not to as great a length as before. Is this edit acceptable to people? diff is here! Lewis Collard 23:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Not to me. This is not a reliable source; this is a nameless writer of partisan figments, and describing him as "the Library of Congress" is an insult to an honorable institution. This is not the first exhibit in Washington to produce nonsense, and doubtless won't be the last. As for the point being made, it is also nonsense; there have been religious services on Federal property quite often; this one, not three years ago, was in the Senate Office Building, and was covered (and so notable enough to find a reference to it) not as unconstitutional, but as weird. I believe there are Baptist services every week. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so the LOC is an "honorable institution" now. Glad we agree! Or do we? After all, you added "unnamed hireling of the Bush administration". Were it not for WP:POINT, I'd be tempted to take this to its logical conclusion and delete every single statement on Wikipedia sourced from a government agency becuz teh bushitler hirez them!111

Anyway, I've put "the Library of Congress website". Lewis Collard 03:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Public exhibits in Washington yielded to political pressure long before Bush was in office; I suspect they did so when Jefferson was president; as long as I have Malone to hand I may check. But this is an isolated crank; find the same opinion in genuinely scholarly literature, and it may stand. It will probably have two advantages this does not: it will have more evidence than "Jefferson attended services at the Capitol", and it will be expressed more moderately.

"Hireling" replaced "employee"; as long as I'm reading Jefferson. ;-> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Heh. :) Lewis Collard 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And furthermore, in case you missed the link in the edit summary: Nameless, schmameless. I guess we're also meant to believe that although the people named wrote it and put their names behind it, someone from the Bush administration added everything that you disagree with. Step 1) hax0r loc.gov. Step 2) ???? Step 3) World domination! Lewis Collard 03:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the sarcasm; but it really is no excuse for citing a text so lacking in evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Re the sarcasm: any time! ;) Anyway, if nothing else, it can be cited as a POV that can be refuted. Lewis Collard 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And that is not a list of authors. It may include them, but no-one on it has credits for writing, much less for writing anything in particular. This text is nameless - and shameless.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You're rather opinionated for someone who slaps POV notices on sections. Bark. Lewis Collard 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

If I were grading a paper that based such a conclusion on such evidence I would flunk it. It is more than biased; it's dishonest; and I would object to it whatever its bias. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

But you'd give them a good grade if they claimed that everyone who works in a government institution and disagrees with PMAnderson is a plant of the Bush administration. So that's okay. :) Lewis Collard 04:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

No personal attacks, please. ;} I conclude it's been leaned on because it's such a bad article, not the other way around. Do you really think its conclusion follows from its data? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. Lewis Collard 04:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, furthermore to the above, it's now "author on the Library of Congress website". I guess this is a reasonable compromise, though a strange one. :) Lewis Collard 03:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

If anyone chooses to take out the trash, I will support them.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Pft. Lewis Collard 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The explanatory comment by the editor mixes the site content with his comment - and the use of "only" does not appear at the site. The site itself has had to make changes due to messages from editors of this article. The site is a slanted presentation - it presents only one side of the issue & omits any significant mention of evidence that does not support its agenda --JimWae 15:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
The editor here chooses not to include the last sentence in the section below - "In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government." - a statement that at least slightly tempers the issue--JimWae 15:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
the LOC's use of "apparently" is weasel-wording. Adding "only" to that compounds the POV --JimWae 15:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not "weasel-wording" when it comes from a source that is qualified to say such things. Exactly the same thing goes for explanatory comments. The Library of Congress is not staffed by Wikipedia editors, or people trying to force some kind of political agenda (or at least, no more than any other institution; "itz biased!11one" would disqualify ANY source from use in Wikipedia -- everyone is biased to some degree, and the truth is always biased). The Library of Congress is staffed by well-qualified librarians and historians who are in a position to put forward a POV on an historical matter. It is our job, as Wikipedia editors, to accurately cite credible sources. The LOC is one.

And bear in mind that we don't even have to agree with the LOC. If it is a credible source -- and it is (let's hammer that point into the ground some more!) -- then our job is simply to cite it. If there is any dissent on the matter, then it's our job to cite that as well.

Regarding your edit summary: I've already addressed the "anonymous" bit above, and you've put no response to it. If someone writing on behalf of a respected institution, it is the institution that matters. And if you want to dismiss a source as "agenda-driven", then you'd better damned well show some evidence that they are driven by an agenda, and demonstrate with real evidence what agenda they are driven by (and sorry, dismissing it just because it's biased does not count, as outlined above). If there are critiques of what the Library of Congress has on their website by equally-or-nearly-as-credible-sources, or any historians that address the same data and come to different conclusions, then please point to them! If there is not, then there is NO good reason to dismiss this evidence. You might not like it (and I don't, and when this issue first came up in the sister article, I originally deleted it without thought as well. I'm as ardent a separationist as any, though I'm not from the US). But whatever our opinions are, we're not entitled to our own historical facts. Lewis Collard 16:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the credits, they are easily discovered right here with a link from the home page of the LOC exhibit site. However, it seems painfully obvious that the credits issues is a straw man. I am well aware that it is extremely distasteful for some to have to admit that church services were held on federal and state property during the early administrations of the US government, and that no one objected to this practice at the time. In fact, it is apparent that this practice was enthusiastically received. However, the facts are the facts, and they deserve a showing here to illustrate the mindset of the founding fathers regarding the topic as discussed. I have done nothing to subvert the other data or inject a POV into other information as provided on this article. I have simply added a couple of paragraphs which are supported by credible and very well researched data. To simply deny its entry is to be intellectually dishonest regarding HOW and WHAT was practiced during the founding years of our republic regarding religious practices and how they related to the state. The LOC exhibit has provided multiple sources of diary pages and the like which are presented on the web site exhibit to support the claims that are made in my two paragraphs. I am only asking that you accept the facts as they are and stop deleting relevant material based on the "modern" concept of Separation of Church and State. Collard’s rewrite doesn’t flow as much as my original because it doesn’t set up the relevancy for the data that doesn’t support the modern interpretation, but I will go with his rewrite or any well crafted rewrite that doesn’t "bury" the facts. ------------ Bottom line folks, I am not rewriting history. What I've presented did in fact happen. Intellectual integrity demands that modern interpretation of ANY historical topic or concept take in to consideration all relevant data. The facts are the facts... Church services were held on, with full support by, the government on federal grounds. Will you allow this historical and extremely relevant information to have its rightful place within this article, or will some of you continue to censor it with various excuses for its erasure?--Mactographer 20:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Like the rest of this campaign, this is a battle with a straw man. Congressmen worship on Federal property now, and always have. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Lewis, I appreciate your efforts. And I salute you for being the ONLY intellectually honest "separationist" willing to defend historical precedent. I don’t understand how the secular progressives can look themselves in the mirror and call themselves the educated elite. They are grasping at straws in every effort to deny the truth of the historical facts. More over, they are ignoring the documentation presented on the LOC exhibit with digital scans of the contemporary written records which demonstrate that regular church services where held on federal property, and that with full approval of all state and private parties. Any nominally motivated parties would also find such reports as:

“

Another Thanksgiving Day Proclamation
Congress set November 28, 1782, as a day of thanksgiving on which Americans were "to testify their gratitude to God for his goodness, by a cheerful obedience to his laws, and by promoting, each in his station, and by his influence, the practice of true and undefiled religion, which is the great foundation of public prosperity and national happiness."

Morality in the Army
Congress was apprehensive about the moral condition of the American army and navy and took steps to see that Christian morality prevailed in both organizations. In the Articles of War, seen below, governing the conduct of the Continental Army (seen above) (adopted, June 30, 1775; revised, September 20, 1776), Congress devoted three of the four articles in the first section to the religious nurture of the troops. Article 2 "earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers to attend divine services." Punishment was prescribed for those who behaved "indecently or irreverently" in churches, including courts-martial, fines and imprisonments. Chaplains who deserted their troops were to be court-martialed.

Aitken's Bible Endorsed by Congress
The war with Britain cut off the supply of Bibles to the United States with the result that on Sept. 11, 1777, Congress instructed its Committee of Commerce to import 20,000 Bibles from "Scotland, Holland or elsewhere." On January 21, 1781, Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken (1734-1802) petitioned Congress to officially sanction a publication of the Old and New Testament which he was preparing at his own expense. Congress "highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion . . . in this country, and . . . they recommend this edition of the bible to the inhabitants of the United States."

Northwest Ordinance
In the summer of 1787 Congress revisited the issue of religion in the new western territories and passed, July 13, 1787, the famous Northwest Ordinance. Article 3 of the Ordinance contained the following language: "Religion, Morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, Schools and the means of education shall be forever encouraged."

Christianizing the Delawares
In this resolution, Congress makes public lands available to a group for religious purposes. Responding to a plea from Bishop John Ettwein (1721-1802), Congress voted that 10,000 acres on the Muskingum River in the present state of Ohio "be set apart and the property thereof be vested in the Moravian Brethren . . . or a society of the said Brethren for civilizing the Indians and promoting Christianity." The Delaware Indians were the intended beneficiaries of this Congressional resolution.

”

All found here (emphasis added.)

But apparently, on Wikipedia, any evidence that supports the historical demonstration of a strong Christian faith being prevalent and promoted in early US government is "clearly" POV.

--Mactographer 05:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Bottom line:

Many of the Founders disagreed with Madison and Jefferson, and did not follow their advice in their own states, or before 1791. But it was Madison's Amendment they enacted.
- But most of these dissenters, like Henry, didn't disagree very much; they felt that the evils of favoring one sect could be overcome by favoring all sects. This didn't work very well, and was abandoned; in all cases but Massachusetts, by the 1810's. (This last detail is not in the article; but I'm not sure we really need 13 subarticles; it is enough that MA was the last). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Madison's Amendment did not bind the States; and some of them did not, and do not, bind themselves. But he proposed that they should be, and the Fourteenth Amendment does bind them.
Madison's Amendment does not, and has never been held to, prohibit Congressional chaplains. But he thought they were a bad idea.

The article now says all these things. Please stop pushing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

It does? Lewis Collard 15:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Which of them do you see as missing? It should be added. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And, most important: Wikipedia is not a vehicle to Enlighten the Multitude, and Bring to Light Forgotten Truth (anybody's forgotten truth; there are so many); it is a catalogue of the errors which presently possess mankind. If you want to send a message, get e-mail. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

No, but it is a place to present the historical evidence fairly. As far as I saw (and see) it, that was the issue at hand here, nothing else. Lewis Collard 15:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Is citing an isolated, poorly evidenced, and widely condemned remark as though it were supported by scholarship presenting the historical evidence fairly? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Show me the sources for scholars "widely condemn[ing]" that quote and I'll start listening. Though, I'm pretty much done with this issue. I hate fighting. :/ Lewis Collard 06:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ignore the above; I only just noticed the section on Hutson below. Sorry! Lewis Collard 06:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It’s only isolated because secular progressives are doing their level best to isolate it. And truth be told, the evidence is not isolated, it comes from many various diary entries and personal letters and eyewitness accounts and existing printed records ... as presented in this exhibit and, you very well know, elsewhere. The same kind of evidence as any other historical documents coming from sources like Geo Washington’s personal letters and such. You are just “choosing” to stick your head in ... somewhere ... let’s say the ground. Same applies to the “poorly evidenced” canard. And as for “widely condemned,” I’m only seeing YOU doing the condemning ... and maybe one or two others who have been quiet lately. Let’s face it, you DON’T want to believe the evidence to the contrary of your belief system, so you choose NOT to believe it. In fact as late as the 1950’s they ADDED “under God” in the pledge ... why? Because there were precious few secular progressives in power at the time trying to rewrite the religious history of the USA. --Mactographer 07:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. So much for your bottom line. This debate ain't bottom lined by a long shot. --Mactographer 07:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Practices of the Jefferson and Madison administrations

A copy of a sermon on the Second Coming of Christ, and on the Last Judgment. This sermon was delivered by John Hargrove on December 25th 1804 before both houses of Congress, at the Capitol in the city of Washington.

Despite the contemporary claims that Jefferson and Madison were strict proponents of the concept of separation of church and state as it is currently presented in modern debate, it is a common misconception to assume that religion was not associated with the practice of politics in early American life. The Religion and the Founding of the American Republic website exhibit at the Library of Congress states,

“

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.

Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government. ^[1]

”

[edit] Former state churches in British North America

Colony	Denomination	Disestablishment	Founder(s)
Connecticut	Congregational	1818	Thomas Hooker
Delaware	free -Christianity for office	--	William Penn
Georgia	originally free (except for Catholic), then Anglican	by 1791	James Oglethorpe
Maryland	Roman Catholic then Anglican	after 1791	Lord Baltimore
Massachusetts	Congregational	1833	Pilgrims, then Puritans
New Hampshire	Congregational	1819	John Mason
New Jersey	Dutch Reformed, then mixed Protestant	-
New York	Dutch Reformed, then (incompletely) Anglican	by 1791
North Carolina	Anglican	by 1791
Pennsylvania	free -Christianity for office	--	William Penn
Rhode Island	free	--	Roger Williams
South Carolina	Anglican	1790
Virginia	Anglican	1786	London Virginia Company
Canada
Lower Canada(Quebec)	Roman Catholic
New Brunswick	Anglican
Newfoundland	Anglican
Nova Scotia	Presbyterian
Prince Edward Island	Anglican
Upper Canada(Ontario)	Anglican

Vermont - 1807

http://www.dinsdoc.com/cobb-1-6.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/cnstntro.htm

The first constitution to prohibit religious tests was the United States Constitution written in 1787

The treatment of religion in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is notably different from the provisions in state constitutions; not only are the national clauses noticeably shorter in both number and length, but the completeness of their prohibitions is unprecedented--no religious tests, no establishments, no laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion. In all state constitutions there are some limits placed on these religious liberties. But the national government under the U.S. Constitution is prevented by clear and bold language from any power to control religion. Even the Preamble lacks the common reference to God which is even found in most current state constitutions.

Many states kept religious tests & other restrictions - 7 states still have some http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JimWae (talk • contribs) 19:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, that's wrong for NJ, in which the Anglican church was never established, and a test of Protestantism for office only was permitted, not required, by the New Jersey Constitution of 1776. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- I will check the sources I have provided re NJ before the revolution - what I saw before was that in both NJ & NY the establishment of Anglicanism existed but was not complete in every county --JimWae 06:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  - Your sources are being misleading. The Duke of York required that every parish support some church; but this was more often Dutch Reformed, Quaker or Presbyterian, than Anglican. He also ordained that the tax-payer was free, having paid his local tax, to go to some other church. The first Anglican minister in NJ arrived in 1700; Anglicanism was more popular in (wealthy, posh) NY. Whether this counts as an establishment at all (it would fail modern constitutional tests) is debateable; it certainly wasn't an establishment of Anglicanism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
And this statement is unsourced, and is false for Connecticut and Rhode Island: Before the American Revolution, the Church of England was the established church in every colony from New York to Georgia, except for Pennsylvania and Delaware (which had no state church, but did require office-holderes to be Christian). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Do you consider CT & RI being between NY & GA? --JimWae 06:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  - My apologies, I swear I saw "Maine"; but it's not true for NJ either; and MD is a matter of dating. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reviewing the sources, it seems the establishment of religion in NY & NJ was quite incomplete - with the requirement for Anglicanism being parts of NY & perhaps East Jersey only, though Protestantism was a requirement for office. To be on firm ground, the extent claim for established Anglicanism should be from MD to GA --JimWae 07:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  - Requirement for office should get a section of its own, since a Test Act was clearly compatible with the most fervent language on liberty of conscience. The East Jersey charter required that members of the Assembly be Christians; the inclusion of Catholics is not surprising: the chief proprietors of the Perth Amboy, New Jersey settlement were Scotch Catholic peers. There was a militia oath of 1756 which required the officers to abjure the pretensions of the Pope; but it is purely negative and a Muslim or a Jew could take it. I'm not sure this was required during the Revolution; there were Irish militia officers, and a new oath, requiring only fidelty to New Jersey, had been enacted by 1799. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph is wrong on its dating, and also wrong on New Hampshire.
- The Puritan movement remained strong in New England states, where the Congregational Church was and continued to be the state church in every state except Rhode Island. Anglican parishioners in New England became Methodists, Baptists, and Presbyterians. By the 1840's only the New England states aside from Rhode Island had established churches.
  - so 1840s (which was there when I got there) needs changing. What info do you have on NH? --JimWae 06:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
    - Just the New Hampshire constitution of (IIRC) 1792; shortly after the First Amendment anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  - I suppose the most we could salvage from that sentence would be that New England states were the last to disestablish - MA, CT
  - http://www.dinsdoc.com/cobb-1-9.htm
    - In New Hampshire the constitution of 1776 made no provision in regard to religious matters. A state convention in 1779 submitted another constitution to the people, which was not adopted, but its utterance on the rights of conscience may be noted here as indicating the growth of sentiment. The section read: “The future legislation of this state shall make no laws to infringe the rights of Conscience, or any other of the natural, unalterable Rights of Men, or contrary to the laws of God, or against the Protestant religion.”(New Hampshire Historical Society, V, 155.) Another convention in 1781 adopted a Bill of Rights similar to that of the Massachusetts convention of 1780, and in an address thereon remarked: “We have endeavored to ascertain and define the most important and essential rights of man. We have distinguished between alienable and unalienable rights. For the former of which men may receive an equivalent; for the latter, or the rights of conscience, they can receive none: The world itself being wholly inadequate to the purchase. ‘For what is a man profited, though he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?’ The various modes of worship among mankind are founded in their various sentiments and beliefs concerning the Great Object of all religious worship and adoration . . . therefore, to Him alone, and not to man, are they accountable for them.”
    - This seems to reach far enough, but in spite of it, the constitution of 1781, as also that of 1784, left unchanged the old colonial law which made the Church a town institution and its support a matter of public tax, and discriminated also in favor of the Protestant religion. (New Hampshire Historical Society, V, 175.)
- it appears that many states considered - & some passed (or kept) - legislation that did not establish any one denomination, but did support & establish Protestant Xty. Another section --JimWae 15:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  - Not just Protestants (see Pennsylvania); New Jersey may well have had a narrower Test than most. IIRC it was a last-minute compromise intended not to scare the conservatives; the British were on Staten Island when it was written. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hutson is not a reliable source

He is an isolated and irresponsible crank. To quote him against the consensus of scholarship is to give undue weight to the unsupported opinions of a solirary extremist; if he is to be discussed at all, his tempest in a teapot should be discussed as a recent and unfortunate development.

The clearest denunciation is reprinted here; please note that the signers include the editor of the Madison Papers. Hutson himself describes the cause of the offense as the claim that "Jefferson's principal motive in writing the Danbury Baptist letter was to mount a counterattack against his political enemies.: Without the word principal, this thesis would not have been controversial; indeed, it would not have been publishable, lacking any element of novelty. All of the argument that it was, in part, an attack (and the strategy of that attack) can be found in the standard biography of Jefferson (Malone Jefferson 4;109); what Nutson omits is that it was (as Jefferson's utterances usually were) a statement of principle also. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hutson's evidence for his revisionism consists of the deletion of a portion of the proposed letter which deprecated offically announced thanksgivings. Since the fact that Jefferson planned to say this and did not (after consulting a New Englander) is also in Malone, this is another novel and unsupported interpretation of long-known evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Review of the resulting book in Wm. and Mary Q (59,4) calls it "a selective survey"; I see this exact criticism was made, and dismissed, above.

The Baptists, the Bureau, and the Case of the Missing Lines,] by Isaac Kramnick; R. Laurence Moore The William and Mary Quarterly; 56,4, p. 817-822 points out one of these omissions; there were only two churches in Washington before 1809, both very small.

Okay. You were right that someone in the LOC really is a crank on this matter, and for that reason, the LOC exhibit is not to be trusted. Thank you for bringing this to light; if you had done this earlier we could have avoided the very ugly discussion above. :/ Lewis Collard 06:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You gotta be kidding me? atheists.org is a NPOV source!!!!--Mactographer 07:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Nope. atheists.org have just reprinted it. (It's okay, my eyes almost popped out too when I first saw that.) Lewis Collard 07:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Apparently they are the only ones who printed it. I can't find any other source of this report with a Google search. Where else is this "A Letter of Concern from Scholars" printed and signed by 22 ostensibly NPOV professors? For that matter, I can go to a dozen or so Bible colleges and find 22 professors who would come up with a POV I liked too. I have no proof that this "Letter of Concern from Scholars" wasn’t generated by the rank and file members of Atheists.org since I can’t find it anywhere else. ----------- And further more, the points they rangle with regarding the interpretation of Jefferson vis-à-vis the Danbury Baptists and what he meant, STILL doesn’t remove the early American contemporary sources of information regarding my original premise that church services were held frequently, if not every week, ON federal property. Dr. Hutson could by a puppy kicking, coke snorting, wife beater, but the original source material from eyewitnesses to the events remain… as seen on the LOC site. Not to mention the congressional decrees as I’ve listed above previously but for some reason was edited out by Pmanderson. So I will repeat them here:

“

”

--Mactographer 09:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I admire Mactographer's diligence in selective quotation of a selective source; however, if he found no more than this, he has no case.
- All these are actions of the Continental Congress or the Congress under the Articles of Confederation. Neither was, of course, bound by the First Amendment.
- It is not clear that some of these, if done nowadays, would breach the wall of separation. It is fairly clear that several of them would not.
- The view of the wall that Mactographer is attacking is a caricature; the High Federalists and Hartford Wits sounded like this; but I have only met this view (within living memory) among village atheists; I regret that the self-appointed defenders of Christianity should have been persuaded by them
  - Our article should of course do what it can to dispell this error.
The Appeal was made nine years ago; the website on which it was originally posted has long ago been taken down. Nevertheless, it is repeatedly quoted in the literature; Hutson does so himself in his 1999 paper ("Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists: A Controversy Rejoined," by James H. Hutson; The William and Mary Quarterly 56,4)
As for Mactographer's claim I have edited his post, it is a falsehood, or rather a confusion. The original list can be seen three sections up.

That's only because I returned it. Or as you call it, vandalized your reply. --Mactographer 08:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

- In fact, Mactographer has deleted (and ignored) my response.
  - This vandalism has removed the following quotation from Mr. Jefferson:

In our university you know there is no Professorship of Divinity. A handle has been made of this, to disseminate an idea that this is an institution, not merely of no religion, but against all religion. Occasion was taken at the last meeting of the Visitors, to bring forward an idea that might silence this calumny, which weighed on the minds of some honest friends to the institution. In our annual report to the legislature, after stating the constitutional reasons against a public establishment of any religious instruction, we suggest the expediency of encouraging the different religious sects to establish, each for itself, a professorship of their own tenets, on the confines of the university, so near as that their students may attend the lectures there, and have the free use of our library, and every other accommodation we can give them; preserving, however, their independence of us and of each other.(To Thomas Cooper, November 2, 1822:

It is fairly common on WP for responses to lists to be posted next to the individual items; it makes the discussion much easier to follow. (But those who do should always indent to make authorship clear.)
- It is civil for those who have strong feelings whether or not this happens to say so, just like where user-talk responses go.
- I have only met this sort of emotional attack about interposting once; that was also a single-purpose editor. I shall however bear Mactographer's feelings in mind, if I ever find it useful to reply to him again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
  - I vandalized nothing. In between a couple of Pmanderson's edits, my text had disappeared and was replaced by the following, "Insert the text of the quote here, without quotation marks." That's what I saw on my Firefox browswer. I don't use IE. Yet, when I look at the diffs now, I see some other edits made by Pmandersonin the middle of my quote marks. I honestly don't know what happened. But whatever Pmanderson did, it made my text disappear ... at least that's what I saw on my browser. But despite all the gleeful accusations, I would never purposely vandalize a reply. But something Pmanderson did, didn't do what he thot it was going to do ... at least on MY browser ... because it my it look like MY original post was vandalized. So I changed it back to what I had put in there originally to restore my text in-between the original quotes. As for replying to the rest, it's going to have to wait till later. Speculate about or character assassinate me as you please. But I plan to take this back up when I have the time. --Mactographer 10:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Meh, this is getting really ugly. Please, can both of you chill out? Mactographer is a good contributor who has done a lot of very good work (which causes me to object to the implication that he is a "single-purpose editor"; you'd only need to check his user page to know that it is untrue), and so is PMAnderson, who has done some great work in refactoring this article. It does, therefore, quite sadden me that this has almost degenerated into throwing insults around at each other. Both of you, leave out the invective and have a reasonable discussion about historical facts. (Yes, I'm guilty of this too (above), and I feel bad about it too.) And BTW, I'm positive that Mactographer would not intentionally vandalise an article. WP:AGF. Lewis Collard 15:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No, he simply does not understand how to read a diff. The diff on which he complains that I removed content is this one (see my talk page). The only material removed by that edit was the unnecessary <br /><br /> he had copied from his source; and they were replaced by equivalent blank lines.

(Mactographer: in diffs, the original text is on the left; any changes to it are backgrounded in yellow. It may also be that, as on my machine, the left hand column formats paragraphs long and thin; the righthand column wide and short, leaving white space. This may have caused your personal attack; but does not excuse it; diffs do that sometimes - you have to actually look at it and see what's been changed.)

In undoing this, he removed the substantial text I had added. I am prepared to accept, now it is explained, that this was incompetence rather than malice. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Figure #1.

Figure #2.

How kind of you to call me incompetent, and earlier your refered to my edits as trash, and yet, you refer to me as making personal attacks. Go figure.

Okay, this is as simple as I can make it, Pmanderson. When YOU made this edit, when scrolling down the page to see the previews, a viewer could still see and read my addition, as seen in figure #1. However, when you made your NEXT edit, all that remained of my original entry read as is seen in figure #2. So as far as I can tell, something you did, messed it up because there is no record of anyone else making any edits when my text was lost. Before you did your thing, it was there. After you did your thing, it was gone. Scroll down for yourself and you will see.

So after noticing that my original text was gone due to one of your edits, I simply returned my original text, or as you call it, vandalized your edit ... which vandalized MY original edit as far as I could see. I was only trying to return my text which disappeared after you did whatever it was you did.

These are simply the facts as I see them, but you may call my remarks here a personal attack again if that pleases you.

--Mactographer 08:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This would appear to be a bug with your computer and {{cquote}}. I would recommend not using it on talk pages; it's purely decorative. (It is not recommended for articles either; use a box.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, as for a bug on my computer, I tried both IE and Firefox on my PC and Opera and Safari on my Mac. It happens the same way everytime. So, call me a skeptic, but I'm kind of wondering if you took the time to scroll down to see if it happened that way on your computer. Because I doubt both my computers have the same bug using 4 different browsers. As for {{cquote}}, I'm only using the tools Wikipedia provides. They wrote it, not me. But I will try to use something different next time for these purposes. In fact, this looks like a human generated error message. Something tells me that the Wikicoders don't allow for the type of edits you employed to be added to text between {{cquote}}. Thus it appears that this message was intended to be generated after such an edit. I can sleep nights now knowing this unfortunate situation appears not to be a result of my incompetence. --Mactographer 07:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Get rid of the "Controversy over the intentions and views of America's founding fathers" section?

Would anyone have any objections to nuking this section in its entirety? This section was originally moved here from the sister article, at a time when this article did not (as far as I can I recall from when I moved it) contain as much well-sourced historical discussion as it does now. It seems to me that, while it's appropriate to discuss various points of view about historical matters by non-historians, avoiding doing so altogether by just stating the known historical facts on the issue is far more appropriate. Lewis Collard 19:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The fewer "supporters say ...critics say..." cruft magnets on Wikipedia the better; but the actual quotations should be moved here (and checked out). (The one from Patrick Henry appears to be spurious; the one from Jay is poorly sourced.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I really like that term "cruft magnet". :) Lewis Collard 15:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to have some of Barton's unconfirmed quotations in a section of their own, clearly labelled; we don't want poor researchers adding them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No we don't. But it'd hardly pain me to hit the "undo" link on a diff every now and then. :) Lewis Collard 15:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Also reader service; if someone comes to this page to check out claim X, and we say "David Barton admits that X was never said", we have served the reader well. But it would be a job to decide which, so I jsut added the link. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

But this deplorable booklet contains most of them, as well as the words attributed to Jay.

Among the text removed was:

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, said: "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."<:ref> West, Martha. ACLU: American Christian Loathers Union. Retrieved on December 13, 2006.<:/ref>
- Jay may have said this, especially in the heat of the 1800 election; but I would prefer a better source than the personal website now used; and this wording seems to rest on the authority of James Dobson, as this book (one of the very few scholarly hits on the phrase) attests. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  - Found, although I think the half-sentence Dobson apparently quotes could use context. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for nuking the section. It was the right thing to do. Lewis Collard 22:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blasphemy laws and the Establishment Clause

The entire 19th century is missing in this article, especially as it has to do with how courts construed the Establishment Clause. There are plenty of 19th century primary sources that could be cited via [books.google.com Google Books]. Courts throughout the 19th century routinely upheld blasphemy laws as constitutional and interpreted the Establishment Clause as only barring the creation of a national Church. Left or right, these 19th century books predate our current fight over the meaning of the Establishment clause, and are thus useful in providing nonpartisan sources.

A famous Pennsylvania Supreme Court case[8] Updegraph v. Commonwealth (1824), which is still on the books in Pa., states that Christianity is part of the common law of Pennsylvania.

Thus this wise legislature framed this great body of laws for a Christian country and Christian people. Infidelity was then rare, and no infidels were among the first colonists. They fled from religious intolerance, to a country where all were allowed to worship according to their own understanding, and as was justly observed by the learned Chancellor of the associated members of the Bar of Philadelphia, in the city of Philadelphia, in his address to that body, 22d of June, 1822, the number of Jews was too inconsiderable to excite alarm, and the believers in Mahomet were not likely to intrude. Every one had the right of adopting for himself whatever opinion appeared to be the most rational, concerning all matters of religious belief; thus, securing by law this inestimable freedom of conscience, one of the highest privileges, and greatest interests of the human race. This is the Christianity of the common law, incorporated into the great law of Pennsylvania, and thus, it is irrefragably proved, that the laws and institutions of this state are built on the foundation of reverence for Christianity. Here was complete liberty of conscience, with the exception of disqualification for office of all who did not profess faith in Jesus Christ. This disqualification was not contained in the constitution of 1776; the door was open to any believer in a God, and so it continued under our present constitution, with the necessary addition of a belief in a future state of rewards and punishments. On this the constitution of the United States has made no alteration, nor in the great body of the laws which was an incorporation of the common law doctrine of Christianity, as suited to the condition of the colony, and without which no free government can long exist. Under the constitution, penalties against cursing and swearing have been exacted. If Christianity was abolished, all false oaths, all tests by oath in the common form by the book, would cease to be indictable as perjury. The indictment must state the oath to be on the holy Evangelists of Almighty God. The accused on his trial might argue that the book by which he was sworn, so far from being holy writ, was a pack of lies, containing as little truth as Robinson Crusoe. And is every jury in the box to decide as a fact whether the Scriptures are of divine origin? Let us now see what have been the opinions of our judges and courts. The late Judge Wilson, of the Supreme Court of the United States, Professor of Law in the College in Philadelphia, was appointed in 1791, unanimously by the House of Representatives of this state to "revise and digest the laws of this commonwealth, to ascertain and determine how far any British statutes extended to it, and to prepare bills containing such alterations and additions as the code of laws, and the principles and forms of the constitution, then lately adopted, might require." He had just risen from his seat in the convention which formed the constitution of the United States, and of this state; and it is well known, that for our present form of government we are greatly indebted to his exertions and influence. With his fresh recollection of both constitutions, in his course of Lectures, 3d vol. of his works, 112, he states, that profaneness and blasphemy are offences punishable by fine and imprisonment, and that Christianity is part of the common law. It is in vain to object that the law is obsolete; this is not so; it has seldom been called into operation, because this, like some other offences, has been rare. It has been retained in our recollection of laws now in force, made by the direction of the legislature, and it has not been a dead letter.

The following early 20th century textbook protests that the courts of that era and before (1918) intended to establish Christianity as the national religion, although not a particular church or set.

Also, this 1859 book dealing with the Bible and Politics in the mid-19th century is enlightening. --FidesetRatio 23:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

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