Talk:Sigma Phi Epsilon

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Contents 1 Local chapters 2 Copyright? 3 Largest Frat in the Nation 4 Building Balanced Leaders... = 5 Uncited Information 6 Motto 7 History changes? 8 Traditional Chapters 9 No Public Motto

[edit] Local chapters

There are over 260 chapters. Sorry, guys, but that just won't scale in this article. The national chapter website lists all the chapters and links to their websites. That's sufficient for our purposes. -- Kbh3rd 07:20, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright?

The History section sure looks and smells like a cut-and-paste job, and some durn similar text can be found elsewhere on the net. If this is copyrighted material, it will have to be removed. Someone needs to do an original version. -- Kbh3rd 04:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Largest Frat in the Nation

"Today it is the largest college social fraternity in the United States." That's incorrect. That distinction belongs to Sigma ALPHA Epsilon, or SAE.

• From SPE's website (sigpp.org): Currently, over 14,000 undergraduates in 260 chapters are members, making SigEp the largest national fraternity.

From SAW's website (sae.net): The current structure includes more than 8,200 undergraduates at more than 200 chapters

Looks like Sig Ep wins hands down, unless you can think of another metric to measure size by. -Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 23:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

In total number of initiates, it's SAE, in total number of actual current undergrads, it's SigEp. Total number of chapters TKE --† Ðy§ep§ion † ^{Speak your mind} 00:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

• Cool, ive updated it to reflect that. Thanks. -Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 01:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have this info on one website possibly a third party one so we can get rid of that [citation needed] tag in the article?Trey 05:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

(ACTUALLY that only weighs true because TKE is international.. the TKE chapters in the US are fewer in number to SPE... SPE wins again —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.182.214.23 (talk • contribs).

TKE doesn't even have that many chapters in Canada. Currently, Phi Delta Theta has the most in Canada with only 10 chapters. (Canada has never been fertile grounds for any fraternity). The reason why TKE has so many chapters is because of their aggresive expansion policy in going into little known colleges. --† Ðy§ep§ion † ^{Speak your mind} 01:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Building Balanced Leaders... =

"Building Balanced Leaders for the Worlds Communities" is the Sigma Phi Epsilon mission statement, not the motto. Sigma Phi Epsilon does not have a public motto. -Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 03:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way to change "motto" to "mission" then? That would make the most sense to show up in that space. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gennert (talk • contribs).

Not within the constraints of the current fraternity infobox. If someone knows how to change that perhaps. As it stands now, just including the mission statement as the motto is highly innaccurate, especially since most other fraternitys have both. Also, IMO, the founding principles (virtue, diligence, brotherly love) are closer to what other fraternities have as a motto than the mission statement, and that is already in the infobox-Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 00:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the motto of the fraternity just "Sigma Phi Epsilon?" That's what I got when I searched around on sigep.org. We know what it means. -Vandymorgan _^(talk) 10:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to add that as an option to the infobox, I'll post on your talk page when I get itr working Stealthound 16:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that the motto is "This fraternity will be different..." by Carter Ashton Jenks Puffy1632 07:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Uncited Information

Please do not add unverifiable information on Sigma Phi Epsilonto this page to any other page—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Treyt021 (talk • contribs).

• Beyond respect, fraternity secrets are inherently unverifiable, and as such, violate wikipedia policy. -Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 00:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
  • The secrets are in fact verifiable. You might look at your chapters ritual book. It goes into pretty good detail. And they can start to float around. I'm also unsure why this is not fit for an encyclopedia. It is important information about the "meaning" of the fraternity. It add character and flavor to the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 157.242.130.70 (talk • contribs).
    • As far as i know, any "ritual book" you're talking about is itself speculation- No search I've tried turns up anything for a Sigma Phi Epsilon Ritual Book. Feel free to take a look at the wikipedia verifibility policy at WP:CITE. Whether it is fit for Wikipedia to publish such "secrets" it questionable enough even if it were provable fact, but since it doesnt even meet the WP:CITE standard, that question is, for now, moot. If you have a copy of whatever book you're talking about and can provide the reference, by all means go ahead.-Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 21:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
      • It's also not public information. Just like we wouldn't publish detailed information about how to build an atomic bomb, so we should not publish this information.-Vandymorgan
        • Well, that comes back to the "questionable" part. Assuming it were substantiated somehow, it would come to the question of whether we can publish "secret" but verifiable information. This is up for debate and there is, AFAIK, no policy nor law applicable currently. However, as long as it remains unverifiable, it is clearly in violation of WP:CITE.-Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 22:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
          • I've been following this and I think it is in poor taste to print the ritual, but atomic secrets... seriously. I don't know if I would put it at that level. And everyone needs to spend less time on the internet and go met girls.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.54.15.129 (talk • contribs).
            • I just recently attened a conference for SigEp and the question about if whether or not fraternity or sorority rituals were in the Library of Congress. It's a myth - the rituals of greek organizations are legally protected and private, similar to rituals of freemasonry and other societies of that sort. Puffy1632 07:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Motto

I'm not going to add it right now becuase their has been some contention over this issue but the motto of SigEp is "Sound Mind Sound Body". However the pledge based chapters would not call that their motto nor would alum from any chapter if they graduated before the late 90's. My thoughts are since their are vastly more balanced man chapters than Pledge and its national policly to convert pledge chapters to balanced man that it should be used as the public motto. Thoughts?--Trey 16:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• I object strongly to that. First of all, national policy is that NEW and re-activated chapters be Balanced, not to convert pledge chapters. And as you say, it is the motto of the Balanced Man Program even for the balanced chapters- its still not the fraternity motto even for them. VDBL is closer, but its still not correct. -Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 01:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually their policy is to convert pledge chapters they won't force you or come out and say it but they will encourage your conversion. I've been a member of both a balanced man chapter and a pledge chapter and trust me nationals says way different things to one group as to the other. In any case your right VDBL is not a public motto. But the Balanced man chapters do use Sound Mind Sound Body as a motto on their shirts and documents. I suppose until all the chapters are balanced man we just won't have a public one.--Trey 03:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History changes?

I took out this line "Ron Brown was the first African-American member of Sigma Phi Epsilon. Upon learning of Brown's membership, the National Headquarters of SigEp demanded that the chapter expel him or face closure of the chapter. The chapter declined to remove Brown and was shut down by the national organization." Thats a fact i'm pretty sure but it was put under the headline of "Additional Modern Programs". I removed it and left the note that it should be placed in the history. Then relized that it doesn't fit there either becuase its not a history of Sigep as a whole but just its founding. So i'm making the change to founding history and would like to add a general history that talks about all the other stuff pertaining to Sigep's past like ther merger and the loss of chapters and the Ron Brown tidbit. I dont'y have the time to work on it now. perhaps another kind soul would like to help? I'll be glad to provied any info. If not i'll get to it when i can.--Trey 05:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe Ron Brown was the first African American to receive a Bid by a national (or international) fraternity. Augustus A. White, became a member of Delta Upsilon at Brown and graduated in '57.

[edit] Traditional Chapters

As a Brother in a Traditional Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter, I would like to clarify that the goals of all SigEp chapters are identical in that we aim to build 'Balanced Men'. However, the processes by which this goal is achived are different. Balanced Man Program chapters have guidelines set forth by national, while Traditional chapters have more freedom to plan a series of events and tasks that are more effective in building better men out of their specific members and enhancing their chapter's Brotherhood. It is also noted that if a Traditional chapter loses sight of its mission to build balanced men and misuses its relative freedom, and is shut down by National, it can only come back under the Balanced Man Program.

Also, note that "Traditional" is a more accurate label for chapters that have not chosen to or been forced to adopt the Balanced Man Program. The SigEp experience does not center around the pledging process, but around an unstratified Brotherhood. I'm sure that current Traditonal SigEps and alumni will appreciate if you use this label instead of the misguided "Pledging Model" label.

Don't really agree with your assertions. I've been a member of both balanced man and Traditional and as far as flexabilty and guidelines go there is no contest Balanced man allows way more and i would say much more effective but thats an argument as old as the BMP and not suited for wikipedia. However, what is wikipedia suited is the lable that we refer to ourselves and on that matter i agree 100% that "Traditional" is a little more P.C. than "pledge based and is more descriptive so i'll support you on that matter.Trey 18:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Public Motto

Hey, this has been discussed before above, but I just wanted to bring it back up- I've removed "Building Balanced Leaders for the Worlds Communites" from the infobox "motto" entry for about the billionth time ever, because it is NOT the Sig Ep motto, it is the MISSION STATEMENT. Likewise, "Sound Mind Sound Body" is the BALANCED MAN PROGRAM MOTTO, not the sig ep motto. Fraternity mottos are traditionally phrases which their letters are derived from, and many organizations have a public and private motto. Sig Ep does NOT have a public motto. Putting either of the others in the infobox is incorrect. So lets either figure out how to remove it from the infobox, or leave it as "no public motto". Either way, please stop re-adding it without discussing it first As always, open to suggestions. Thanks.-Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 02:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there anyone whom has the skill to change the infobox to say mission statement either in place of the motto or as another section. It just seems every few days someone comes along and adds it so obviously many people myself included would like to see it. However let me stress i do agree that "Building Balanced leaders..." is in no way the motto nor should it be presented as such. Trey 03:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)