Template talk:Solar system table

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Note: This table was created as a larger version of Template:Footer SolarSystem; it was deemed too large for subpages of Solar system but appropriate for the Solar System page itself.

Contents 1 Reorganizing Jovian moons 2 Jovian and Saturnian moons 3 A new concept 4 A few thoughts 4.1 Second table 4.2 Impressive. Most impressive. 4.3 Ring and moon symbols, continued 5 All right then 6 Dynamicist Solar System navbar

[edit] Reorganizing Jovian moons

It's silly to have the moon families of the Jovian system separated from the members of those families, especially when reorganizing would really help the flow of that section of the table. Unless anyone has a problem, I'm going to reorganize it. Alba 13:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jovian and Saturnian moons

Tompw, I have to disagree with your latest edits to the Solar System Table:

• As currently made, the line breaks do not make for a pretty table, but oddly placed spaces instead. I tried doing what you tried before coming up with the semicolon convention to seperate the groups; I found the results undesirable. This was tested on both Firefox and Safari before changing.
• The Saturnian moons should be reduced in font size to match the other lists.
• The Jovian moon order was not arbitrary but deliberate; I disagree with lumping the non-grouped moons into "other" when their previous order reflected their location in the system. (I can't help the Pasphiae and Carme groups overlapping, however).
• Why did you delete the Saturnian groupings?

I'm restoring my previous work; if you continue to disagree with my reasoning, feel free to reply. Alba 21:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, but I did find one mistake I made: I didn't change the commas in the Saturnian lists to bars. I'll fix that. Alba 21:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Actuyally, my original problem with the Jovian grouping was that some moons (S/2003 J2, S/2003 J12, Carpo, Themisto) are not currently considered to be part of any group. Hence my creation of the "other" group. I put in the line breaks because I felt that the Jovian moons were rather a large solid block, which makes the template harder to use. A possible compromise: instead of line breaks between groups, how about about several   instead? That would seperate the groups out. With the Saturnian mooons, the same comments apply. Also looking at Saturn's moon groups, I would suggest re-naming "E ring group" to "Inner Group". (The Saturnian groupsings got delete because I copied across the previous version without those groupings. I intended to restore them, but had to stop part way through, thinking I would be able to come back within an hour or so ... sorry, should've left a note). Anyway, I hope that clears things up. Tompw 11:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

On groupless moons: I agree with the need to note that the moons you name are not members of groups, but it is for that very reason that I disagree with them being lumped into a 'misc.' or 'other' category. However, I would agree that noting their non-grouped nature in a succinct and distinct manner would be advisable, and I would be willing to entertain ideas. I tried the spacing, but found it to be a visual distraction due to its random placement in the lists. Maybe a (no group) notation, or an asterisk with a note below stating "groupless", or something of the sort would work.

On Saturnian groups: It would appear that these groups do not have formally defined names. It would probably match better to have an Inner and Outer, and I'm changing it to be so; but I'm still not quite happy, as that implies that Inner would include the shepherds and Outer the Inuit, Norse, and Gallic groups -- neither of which is the case. Alba 18:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Groupless moons: maybe just put Ungrouped: at the start of the list?

Saturnian groups: The only vaguely formally defined groups are the Inuit/Norse/Gallic groups. However, I am all for grouping the rest of the moons, provided it is done in a way that given any moon, it is obvious which group it goes into. Tompw 19:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The posts here could imply the existence of ‘formally defined’ groups. More precisely, the groups are identified by specific authors and the included members vary. Please see talk pages related to the different groups and irregular satellite article. The popular Sheppard’s site is not the only reference (his papers quoted, are a reference of course, but others are available).

I appreciate that it does not help the organisation of the table but I believe Wikipedia shouldn’t ‘choose’ a single source. Tight groups (Carme, Ananke) are less of a problem of course. Pasiphae is another story. Finally, the new discovered moons do not have mean orbital elements calculated (see JPL), so they classification based on the best-fit discovery is at least unsafe. Eurocommuter 12:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A new concept

Take a look at what I just posted -- it is an attempt at a compromise here:

1) When it does not cause nearly empty lines in the middle of a list of moons, breaks are inserted to force group names to the left margin.
2) The order of moons is preserved, but nbsp's and asterisks clarify grouplessness.
3) Groupless moons are arranged with their nbsp's for good feng shui; I refer in particular to the Himalia group line.
4) I couldn't do the same trick with Epimethius & Janus / Inner group / Outer group. Sorry.

EDIT: But by making a subcategory noting the unverified nature of three shepherd moons, this problem was overcome!!

5) Because a incomplete line no longer signifies the end of a moon list for Jupiter and Saturn, I inserted blank lines there to visually separate the lists. Uranus and Neptune don't need this treatment because of the bolded Rings link at the end.
6) For visual continuity, I then reduced the "Asteroid belt and the minor planets box from four lines to three by moving the break.
7) Purely for aesthetics, I spread the inner planets out a bit further to more completely fill the box.

The ultimate result is slightly bigger, but is much more visually pleasing and makes finding anything in the list (the search and find therbligs) quick and easy. I think it's more optimal -- give me your read. Alba 19:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's a lot better. The only change I made was to remove the blank lines at the end of the moons.... hang on, sudden realisation: the table should have horizontal border lines between rows - it does in IE, and should do in all browsers, but clearly it doesn't. I've put the blank lines until I figure out how to get this one to work. (In List of Saskatchewan general elections, do the rows alternate grey and white for you? If so, might this be a possible way to indicate what belonsg with which planet?) Tompw 22:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ignore everything after the first sentence in the above. I've realised that the border line things is now deprcated HTML, hence it not working properly. Have a look to see what I've done. (Which is more in line with what I originally intended when I made this template). Tompw 22:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Superlative -- the horizontal border lines now show up in non-IE, and are much, much better than the blank lines I had inserted previously. I made one minor tweak -- the word "group" was hanging off the end of the Jovian list, so I shortened a space to fit better. I don't see any further problems. Alba 16:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A few thoughts

This table is claimed to be a larger version of Template:Footer SolarSystem (with a more complete listing of objects). But it really is a complete list of Solar System moons, and so more closely related to the Natural satellites page than the Solar system page. It doesn't, for instance, include even the larger TNOs found in Template:Footer TransNeptunian, let alone those in Template:Footer TNOList.

I suggest having two tables: one which can incorporate more material on asteroid and TNO bodies, and another one devoted entirely to satellites, which would incorporate the largest part of this table. RandomCritic 15:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is my concept more fleshed out:

First table, giving a pretty detailed solar system overview, but only linking to general satellite articles:

The Solar System v • d • e
Sun • Heliosphere Heliosheath Heliopause Hydrogen wall	Planets		Mercury	Venus	Earth	Mars
					moon	moons
			Jupiter	Saturn	Uranus	Neptune
			rings • moons	rings • moons	rings • moons	rings • moons
	Dwarf planets		Ceres	Pluto	Eris
				moons	moon
	Small solar system bodies	Asteroids or minor planets	Groups and families: Vulcanoids · Near-Earth asteroids · Asteroid belt Jupiter Trojans · Centaurs · Asteroid moons · Meteoroids
		Trans-Neptunians	Kuiper belt: Orcus · Ixion · 2002 UX25 · Varuna · 2002 TX300 · 2003 EL61 · Quaoar · 2005 FY9 · 2002 AW197
			Scattered disc: 2002 TC302 · 2004 XR190 · Sedna
			See also the complete list of asteroids, and pronunciation of asteroid names.
		Comets	Lists of periodic and non-periodic comets · Damocloids · Oort cloud
See also astronomical objects and the solar system's list of objects, sorted by radius or mass, and the pronunciation guide

[edit] Second table

Second table, giving a fuller accounting of all the known natural satellites of the Solar system:

v • d • e Natural satellites of the Solar System

v • d • e Moons of Earth, Mars and the Asteroids Earth Moon Mars' moons Phobos · Deimos Asteroid moons Binary asteroids · List of asteroid moons v • d • e Moons of Jupiter Listed in increasing distance from Jupiter. Italics indicate ungrouped moons. Amalthea group Metis · Adrastea · Amalthea · Thebe Galilean moons Io · Europa · Ganymede · Callisto   Themisto Himalia group Leda · Himalia · Lysithea · Elara · S/2000 J 11   Carpo · S/2003 J 12 Ananke group Ananke · Praxidike · Harpalyke · Iocaste · Euanthe · Thyone  (core) Euporie · S/2003 J 3 · S/2003 J 18 · Thelxinoe · Helike · Orthosie · S/2003 J 16 · Hermippe · Mneme · S/2003 J 15  (peripheral) Carme group S/2003 J 17 · S/2003 J 10 · Pasithee · Chaldene · Arche · Isonoe · Erinome · Kale · Aitne · Taygete · S/2003 J 9 · Carme · S/2003 J 5 · S/2003 J 19 · Kalyke · Eukelade · Kallichore Pasiphaë group Eurydome · S/2003 J 23 · Hegemone · Pasiphaë · Sponde · Cyllene · Megaclite · S/2003 J 4 · Callirrhoe · Sinope · Autonoe · Aoede · Kore   S/2003 J 2 v • d • e Moons of Saturn Generally listed in increasing distance from Saturn Ring shepherds Pan · Daphnis · Atlas · Prometheus · S/2004 S 6? · S/2004 S 4? · S/2004 S 3? · Pandora Co-orbitals Epimetheus · Janus Inner large and Trojan Mimas · Methone · Pallene · Enceladus · Tethys  (trojans Telesto, Calypso)  ·  Dione  (trojans Helene, Polydeuces) Outer large Rhea · Titan · Hyperion · Iapetus Inuit group Kiviuq · Ijiraq · Paaliaq · Siarnaq Norse group Phoebe · Skathi · Skoll · S/2004 S 13 · S/2006 S 4 · Hyrokkin · Mundilfari · S/2006 S 6 · S/2006 S 1 · S/2004 S 17 · Narvi · Bergelmir · Aegir · Suttungr · S/2004 S 12 · Bestla · Farbauti · Hati · S/2004 S 7 · Thrymr · S/2006 S 3 · Surtur · Kari · Fenrir · Ymir · Loge · Fornjot Gallic group Albiorix · Bebhionn · Erriapo · Tarvos Rings of Saturn · Cassini-Huygens · Themis v • d • e Moons of Uranus Inner Cordelia · Ophelia · Bianca · Cressida · Desdemona · Juliet · Portia · Rosalind · Cupid  · Belinda · Perdita · Puck · Mab Major (spheroid) Miranda · Ariel · Umbriel · Titania · Oberon Outer (irregular) Francisco  · Caliban · Stephano · Trinculo · Sycorax · Margaret · Prospero · Setebos · Ferdinand See also Rings of Uranus v • d • e Moons of Neptune Naiad · Thalassa · Despina · Galatea · Larissa · Proteus · Triton · Nereid · Halimede · Sao · Laomedeia · Psamathe · Neso Neptune Trojans • Rings of Neptune v • d • e Moons of Pluto and Eris Pluto's moons Charon · Nix · Hydra Eris Dysnomia Inner satellites · Irregular satellites · Trojan moons · List · List by diameter · Discovery timeline · Naming

RandomCritic 01:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a problem with the placement of "Earth's Moon": it looks off center one way or the other. It would be better if you put it in the same standard format as all the others, with "The Moon / Luna" or some such on the right. And why is Pluto and its moons bolded? Alba 23:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The latter was an error, though Charon's big enough to be bolded according to the principles of the rest of the table. I tried to fix the Moon problem. RandomCritic 01:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what happened -- but the switch from dashes to dots has had two effects:

1) The dots are not all the same size -- compare Saturn's and Uranus's. (fixed)

2) The careful space formatting has been ruined, and I don't know how to force the boxes to shift size enough to restore it. Alba 13:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I reset widths to 125 for the left column, 700 for the right -- does that help? RandomCritic 15:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Impressive. Most impressive.

But let's see if we can improve further:

The Solar System v • d • e
Sun • Heliosphere Heliosheath Heliopause Hydrogen wall	Planets O = ring(s) • * = moon(s)		Mercury	Venus	Earth•*	Mars•*
			Jupiter•O•*	Saturn•O•*	Uranus•O•*	Neptune•O•*
	Dwarf planets		Ceres	Pluto•*	Eris•*
	Small solar system bodies	Asteroids (minor planets)	Groups and families: Vulcanoids · Near-Earth asteroids · Asteroid belt Jupiter Trojans · Centaurs · Asteroid moons · Meteoroids
		Trans-Neptunians	Kuiper belt: Orcus · Ixion · 2002 UX25 · Varuna · 2002 TX300 · 2003 EL61 · Quaoar · 2005 FY9 · 2002 AW197
			Scattered disc: 2002 TC302 · 2004 XR190 · Sedna
			See also the complete list of asteroids, and pronunciation of asteroid names.
		Comets	Lists of periodic and non-periodic comets · Damocloids · Oort cloud
See also astronomical objects and the solar system's list of objects, sorted by radius or mass, and the pronunciation guide

Alba 23:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I really like the colors. I'm unsure about the O and * for the rings and moons, though; it's hard to click on something as small as an asterisk. Maybe one could use a symbol like this: ☾ or this ◐ or this ❍ for moons, and for rings maybe this ⦾ or this ⦿? Something like this: RandomCritic 01:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The Solar System v • d • e
Sun • Heliosphere Heliosheath Heliopause Hydrogen wall	Planets ⦾ = rings ❍ = moon(s)		Mercury	Venus	Earth ❍	Mars ❍
			Jupiter ⦾ ❍	Saturn ⦾ ❍	Uranus ⦾ ❍	Neptune ⦾ ❍
	Dwarf planets		Ceres	Pluto ❍	Eris ❍
	Small solar system bodies	Asteroids or minor planets	Groups and families: Vulcanoids · Near-Earth asteroids · Asteroid belt Jupiter Trojans · Centaurs · Neptune Trojans · Asteroid moons · Meteoroids
		Trans- Neptunians	Kuiper belt: Orcus · Ixion · 2002 UX25 · Varuna · 2002 TX300 · 2003 EL61 · Quaoar · 2005 FY9 · 2002 AW197
			Scattered disc: 2002 TC302 · 2004 XR190 · Sedna
			See also the complete list of asteroids, and pronunciation of asteroid names.
		Comets	Lists of periodic and non-periodic comets · Damocloids · Oort cloud
See also astronomical objects and the solar system's list of objects, sorted by radius or mass, and the pronunciation guide

The character you use for the rings does not show correctly on my PC (Using Firefox in Linux), perhaps use the following: ☾ for moons and ❍ for rings -- Nbound 03:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ring and moon symbols, continued

The Solar System v • d • e
Sun • Heliosphere Heliosheath Heliopause Hydrogen wall	Planets ☾ = moon(s) ∅ = rings		Mercury	Venus	Earth ☾	Mars ☾
			Jupiter ☾ ∅	Saturn ☾ ∅	Uranus ☾ ∅	Neptune ☾ ∅
	Dwarf planets		Ceres	Pluto ☾	Eris ☾
	Small solar system bodies	Asteroids (minor planets)	Groups and families: Vulcanoids · Near-Earth asteroids · Asteroid belt Jupiter Trojans · Centaurs · Neptune Trojans · Asteroid moons · Meteoroids
		Trans- Neptunians	Kuiper belt: Orcus · Ixion · 2002 UX25 · Varuna · 2002 TX300 · 2003 EL61 · Quaoar · 2005 FY9 · 2002 AW197
			Scattered disc: 2002 TC302 · 2004 XR190 · Sedna
			See also the complete list of asteroids, and the meaning and pronunciation of asteroid names.
		Comets	Lists of periodic and non-periodic comets · Damocloids · Oort cloud
See also astronomical objects and the solar system's list of objects, sorted by radius or mass, and the pronunciation guide

there we go -- Nbound

• I took the liberty of swapping the rings symbol for another one that may be less confusing. I hope that it shows up correctly, though! RandomCritic 10:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I like the symbol, but its size was visually distressing. I took another liberty and made the ring symbol the same size as the moon symbol. It shows up fine for me on Firefox, IE, and Safari. Alba 19:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All right then

I think I'll just run this up the flagpole and see who tears it down. RandomCritic 19:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Definitely no "tearing down" needed, but I have added a splash of colour. I have added the image from Template:Footer SolarSystem to the bottom of this template - it's a very nice image, but it's not on the Solar System page! (The footer template was removed some time back because it duplicated the information in this larger template.) The image is also interactive, thanks to the new Wiki coding for interactive images. Check it out... I've left detailed information on how it is coded as comments inside the template, as well as a further explanation at Template talk:Footer SolarSystem. (The other, minor change was to add a link to the Astronomy Portal at the bottom. It mirrors the rewording of the lower text on the footer template.) Thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 20:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dynamicist Solar System navbar

The above classifies the solar system by some kind of mixed body and orbit classification. I prefer the distance-from-sun (dynamicist) organization:

• Sun
  • Terrestrials:
    • Mercury, Venus, Earth ☽, Mars ☽
  • Asteroids:
    • Ceres, Pallas, Vesta, Hygiea, classes: inner, main belt, outer, NEAs...
  • Jovians:
    • Jupiter ☽, Saturn ☽, Uranus ☽, Neptune ☽
  • Transneptunes:
    • TNO:s
      • Pluto, Eris, Varuna, Sedna, classes: KBO:s, plutinos, resonance objs, OCO:s, centaurs
    • Comets:
      • Halley, Hale-Bopp, Hyakutake, classes: damokloids, inner, neptune, OCC:s

Just saying is one thing - I'll prepare some kind of alternate navbar. Back L8R. Rursus 06:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

PS – when I'm ready, you'll not see anything special, except maybe some odd extra clickable text in some corner... Rursus 06:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)