Talk:Sonoma County, California

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	Sonoma County, California is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article Milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article Milestones Date Process Result March 20, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted Current Status: Former featured article candidate

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Contents 1 Sonoma County American Viticultural Areas 2 Sonoma County Wineries 3 Unincorporated Settlements 4 Darned Wikitable 5 overly cumbersome lists 6 Nomination for featured page ...and defacement 7 Good Luck my Freinds 8 Time to tackle the lists 9 Recent changes to the Introduction 10 Resources section 11 Threatened/endangered species

[edit] Sonoma County American Viticultural Areas

For the record, here are Sonoma County's 11 distinct (and 2 shared) American Viticultural Areas, in case someone actually writes articles on them and the links become active:

• Alexander Valley
• Bennett Valley
• Chalk Hill
• Dry Creek Valley
• Knights Valley
• Los Carneros (shared with Napa County)
• North Coast (large district which includes part of Sonoma County)
• Northern Sonoma
• Rockpile
• Russian River Valley
• Sonoma Coast
• Sonoma County Green Valley
• Sonoma Mountain
• Sonoma Valley

[edit] Sonoma County Wineries

Also for the record are the wineries from the old list in the main article, wikilinked so that if someone does write articles on them, they'll become noticeably active:

• Benziger Family Winery
• Benziger Winery
• Buena Vista Winery
• Chateau Souverain
• Chateau St. Jean
• Clos Du Bois Wines
• Deerfield Ranch Winery
• Frei Brothers Winery
• Gallo of Sonoma Winery
• Hartford Court
• Imagery Estates
• Inman Family Wines
• J Vineyards & Winery
• Kendall-Jackson Wine Estates
• Kenwood Vineyards
• La Crema Winery
• Matanzas Creek Winery
• Rancho Zabaco Winery
• Ravenswood Winery
• Russian Hill Estate Wines
• Sebastiani Vineyards and Winery
• St. Francis Vineyard and Winery
• Sonoma-Cutrer Vineyards
• Stonestreet Winery
• Valley of the Moon Winery
• White Oak Vineyards

Names minus "Winery"

• Benziger Family
• Benziger
• Buena Vista (winery)
• Chateau Souverain
• Chateau St. Jean
• Clos Du Bois Wines
• Deerfield Ranch
• Frei Brothers
• Gallo of Sonoma
• Hartford Court
• Imagery Estates
• Inman Family Wines
• J Vineyards
• Kendall-Jackson
• Kenwood Vineyards
• La Crema
• Matanzas Creek
• Rancho Zabaco
• Ravenswood (winery)
• Russian Hill Estate Wines
• Sebastiani Vineyards
• St. Francis Vineyard
• Sonoma-Cutrer Vineyards
• Stonestreet
• Valley of the Moon (winery)
• White Oak Vineyards

--Calton | Talk 07:50, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Item on David Bruce Winery and the 1976 Paris Judgement has been moved to the Santa Cruz County, California page because the winery in question was in that county:

• The Santa Cruz vineyard of the David Bruce Winery (with vineyards in both Sonoma and Santa Cruz counties) was selected for competition in the historic Paris Wine Tasting of 1976, which revolutionized the world of wine (Tabor, p.167-169).

The corresponding reference was also moved

--Skinnerbird 20:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The long winery list in this article is cumbersome and probably should go into a separate article with branching ref in this article. what do others think? Anlace 18:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unincorporated Settlements

All unincorporated settlements (some mostly historic) added for someone to expand. Taken from USGS maps and Compass Maps' Santa Rosa and Sonoma, Petaluma and Sonoma County (ISBN 156575235X). At the time of purchase (circa 1995), this map was very outdated, but the settlement names match entries on USGS maps for Sonoma County.

--Skinnerbird 08:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Since the cities and unicorporated settlements are in both the main article and at the end in a template box, perhaps they should just be in one place.

--skinnerbird 18:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Darned Wikitable

One thing I noticed while checking the results of the Geo and Transpo realignment, is that the Wikitable of national claims to the land is not displaying properly. The text seems to be overlapping into the flag cells... Edit Centric 19:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, must have been a screen glitch, cleared my browser cache, went back, and now it's displaying properly. Again, hmm... Edit Centric 07:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Months later, I see it this way too. Do others? Maybe there's something wrong with the Wikitable?

[edit] overly cumbersome lists

The lengths of the wineries and film sections are out of balance with needed breadth of coverage in other expansion areas. perhaps each (wineries and films) should have its own separate sub article. this article badly needs expansion on such topics as geology, history, prehistory, ecology, land use and culture. so the breadth issues must be proportionate to the topic importance. what do others think? Anlace 18:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As a Sonoma County resident for more than 50 years, I agree the article doesn't cover the fundamental topics you cited. Wineries and tourism have become Sonoma County's major industries, but this page doesn't need to list more than the major wineries and vineyards. -- Mukrkrgsj 02:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the list of wineries and movies. But there is so much more to talk about. My suggestion would be to format the lists into a more managable space. I think the wineries are fine how they are, but the movies definately can be improved. I'm willing to go over the whole thing and reformat stuff, but I'm not going to do it if it ends up just being reverted. So If I get a general OK in here, I'll be happy to fix up the article. Sue Rangell 02:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Sue. I think we generally agree with Anlace, that "geology, history, prehistory, ecology, land use and culture" (among others) are the significant topics. Speaking only for myself, I may further edit the wineries section as time permits, but I have little interest in the list of movies made here. Btw, the Santa Rosa article has a long list of movies. -- Mukrkrgsj 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I just did a MAJOR rework of the wineries section, I hope everyone likes it, I really put a lot of work into it. Sue Rangell 04:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

ADDENDUM: After many hours of work, the formattiong is done. Work was done on all of the big clumsy lists. No data has been changed added or deleted, only beautifying. (Adding a few hundred tiny edits) my fingers hurt, but the page is beautiful now. I am recommending it for a featured page. Sue Rangell^{[citation needed]} 01:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

One explanation for all the "overly cumbersome lists" here, is that the "WikiProject U.S. Counties standards" page recommends them! Likewise, what's here so far appears to follow the recommended template fairly closely. Click on the link at the top of this page. -- Mukrkrgsj 15:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination for featured page ...and defacement

After almost five months this article contains the same problems that Anlace brought up originally:

"The lengths of the wineries and film sections are out of balance with needed breadth of coverage in other expansion areas. ...

this article badly needs expansion on such topics as geology, history, prehistory, ecology, land use and culture.

so the breadth issues must be proportionate to the topic importance. what do others think?

I think you should be listened to, Anlace. Also, Mukrkrgs brought up tourism, a major industry in Sonoma County, and there's not a single word about tourism in the article. This article needs vast improvement, please listen to these editors Anlace and Mukrkrgs and their suggestions, as they are right on target. Please withdraw this from FAC until you have reviewed the criteria for FAC. Lists are lists, a different type of article on Wikipedia. If you want to make lists, that is fine, please do so. But an article is not simply a collection of lists, it's something people can read, not search if a specific thing is there, or how many. Please add prose sections to all of the lists that develop the context of the list and make the lists separate articles by themselves. Thanks. KP Botany 03:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, of course; but I don't see the benefit of hanging three banners at the top, and eight more below, to criticize the volunteer contributors for their lack of progress on this article. -- Mukrkrgsj 07:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The point is to identify explicitly what needs to be done, through the banners, which also alert users, not just editors, that there is a problem with the article and/or section, and this needs fixed, and Wikipedia is aware of the problem. The interior banners show that introductory sections need to be added to these places, to identify, as requested by one editor, exactly what needs fixed. Anlace brought the issues up, and instead of being attended to over the last 5 months the article is up for FAC!KP Botany 08:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand, and I've already agreed the article needs a great deal of work. But Wikipedia is written by unpaid volunteer amateurs, for the sheer joy of doing it. Knowing that some monitor is looking over my shoulder, and measuring my work against Wiki's rigid standards, takes the joy out of contributing to worthy articles like this. -- Mukrkrgsj 12:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Knowing that some monitor is looking over my shoulder has greatly improved the quality of my articles. Wikipedia may be written for the sheer joy, but it has a huge market share on where people go to get information, and it has some responsibility to the users. This article simply needs a tremendous amount of work, and the editor who nominated it for FAC simply will not look at the FAC criteria or do anything to improve the article and make it a FAC. There may also be some issues with User:Sue Rangell also--see her talk page history, but I will bring it up at WP:AN/I.

You also are ignoring the most important point, these banners may bring other competent editors to this article to improve it. This article needs some serious editing. Let's let those who can do so, do it. Mukrkrgs, let's you and I put this on hold for a while, until Sue Rangell is identified. KP Botany 18:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

KP Botany, I'm not sure why you are doing this. While not absolutely perfect, I still think that this will make a very nice featured article. I get the impression that you are more concerned with torpedoing the article, than improving it. I'm not sure why. A lot of us have put a lot of work into this article, and you should let it have it's shot. I would be more sympathetic if you had shown intrest in the article PRIOR to it's nomination, but you didn't. I think you are being a negative-Nelly. Your banners 12 of them! amount to defacement in my opinion, and I hope you will consider taking them down..Sue Rangell^{[citation needed]} 17:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sue, I don't think User:Nesbit's user page is copyrighted, but I do think that if you copy extensively from his user page and represent his interests and statements as your identity, you are misrepresenting yourself to the Wikipedia community, and this causes me concern about your editing this or any other article on Wikipedia. I believe your sources, or lack of sources, simply must be checked immediately. I will not be dealing with you until this matter of your claimed identity is resolved. KP Botany 18:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that would seem to be between me and Nesbit, don't you think? And I fail to understand what any of that has to do with this article. Also, I won't edit war with you or anyone else, so stop trying to bait me. I don't even want to argue with anyone, so stop trying to bait me there too. I'm not sure what you're about or where your coming from, but I'm not your enemy, nor will I ever be, nor will I get into any sort of fruitless discussion with you or anyone else. This page is for discussion of the Sonoma County page, not about who you think I may or may not be. Sue Rangell^{[citation needed]} 18:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Luck my Freinds

Guys I'm really sorry about all the negativity that came up over the nomination. It's a very nice page, but I can't handle the personal attacks I've endured for the past three days just for nominating it. I've been called a clone, a spy, everything else under the sun, even endured two complaints posted on the admin talk pages over this crap. I don't do well with psychos, so I'll be moving on. I feel terrible about it, but the last thing I ever expected was to pick up a wikistalker. You gotta love someone who is completely unheard of, then once the page is nominated, shows up and plasters the page with 12 warning banners and begins personally attacking people until the nomination is withdrawn. (Yes I withdrew it) ...and then disappears again.

I'm sorry about the rant, but I needed it off my chest. Feel free to delete it if it's offensive. I truly am sorry about the trouble. I still think it's a great article, and yes I still think it's worthy of Featured Article Status, considering some of the Featured Articles are not as good in my opinion. Sonoma County is one of the most beautiful places in the world, and I hope it get's a featured Article someday. Good luck with it guys, that's from the heart. It's time for me to go.

Sue Rangell^{[citation needed]} 01:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to tackle the lists

Well we have made a lot of progress on this article. Regarding the lists, i propose the following:

1. for the cities list, put only the unincorporated entities in list form. the incorporated cities are already in text form and no reason to duplicate. The adjacent counties can be covered in one text sentence.

• Finished as of now. Anlace 04:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

2. for the wineries, i propose a new sub-article called Sonoma County wineries that would take the list and we can write a short summary section on history and standing of the Sonoma County AVAs. I, in fact, just found that there already exists a list article called List of wineries in Santa Rosa, California, so, alternatively, we could update that list (to include all the county wineries) and use that vehicle to streamline the Sonoma County article.

3. create a new subarticle for the film locations. Anlace 16:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

On 2 be sure to check form for other counties and their wineries, and either copy, or if appropriate suggest a form according to naming conventions, etc. There are many more wineries in Sonoma County than in Santa Rosa, so are you suggesting subsume the Santa Rosa wineries? That would work, but it might be a pet list. Also, I think the history of wineries in Sonoma is longer than the usual text in a list article. Good work thus far. KP Botany 03:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Your point is a good one, which i was actually ruminating. Better to create a new article called Sonoma County wineries, so that the important history, AVA discussion, etc. can be covered and not just a big list. In any case i was thinking the list (within the new sub-article) should cover the whole county, not just the santa rosa wineries. Anlace 04:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and: 1. Suggest describing the smaller towns, and eventually deleting the table. 2. Recommend adding the Sonoma County wineries subarticle. I think many users will be looking for major articles about Wine Country appellations, vineyards, wineries, winemakers, and wines, and these should be separate from the Sonoma County page. 3. Recommend the new film subarticle. --Mukrkrgsj 00:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes to the Introduction

The introduction has been edited to read:

"In prehistoric times Sonoma County was the home to several distinct Native American tribes, who lived within the carrying capacity of the land; by 1850, European settlement had set a new direction that would prove to radically alter the course of land use and resource management of this region."

True, the Pomo, Coast Miwok, and Wappo Indians were small bands of hunter/gatherers, and the increased numbers and technology of European settlers have profoundly altered the environment. I argue locally against continuous growth and development for private profit, but I'm not comfortable with this land use/carrying capacity/resource management approach to history here. Comments?

The intro continues:

"As of 2007 Sonoma County has rich agricultural land capability, and has also preserved considerable forested area, beach habitat and other open space; these preservation efforts are products of an electorate that is aware of the value of resource conservation, expressed through an open space initiative[1] that has provided considerable funding for public acquisition of natural areas."

If the previous sentence is kept, I would edit this one to read:

"As of 2007, Sonoma County still has rich agricultural land. The voters have twice approved an open space initiative^[1] that has provided considerable funding for public acquisition of natural areas, which has preserved forested areas, beach habitat, and other open spaces."

Let me note here that:

1) The great majority of Sonoma County "agriculture" today is grapegrowing, to make wine, and is criticized as "monoculture";

2) The voters have twice approved a sales tax surcharge for the SCAP&OSD, but they can't control its administration by local politicians and their appointees, most of whom represent an entrenched local establishment of businessmen and developers;

3) The OSD has been criticized for spending millions of taxpayer dollars to buy intangible "development rights"--frequently for rural estates in no danger of development--whereas the voters thought the money would be spent to deter urban sprawl in the Santa Rosa Plain, and create greenbelt community separators.

Comments? -- Mukrkrgsj 01:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

good points mukrkrgs. i have made additional edits to attempt to respond to the issues you have advanced. regards. Anlace 20:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resources section

the article section named "Resources" is very strange. it generally offers generic sites....not specific to the county at all. this section should be evaluated critically and most of it dismantled. What the article needs badly is more line note references. Anlace 03:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I recently alphabetized the section, and didn't see anything specific to this article. It could be deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mukrkrgsj (talk • contribs) 07:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Threatened/endangered species

Anlace added the sentence, "Endemic endangered species to Sonoma County include the Pitkin Marsh lily, Lilium pardalinum ssp Pitkinense." Shouldn't this go at the end of the preceeding paragraph?

"A number of endangered plants and animals are found in Sonoma County including the California clapper rail, Salt Marsh Harvest Mouse, Northern Red-legged Frog, Sacramento splittail, California freshwater shrimp, Showy Indian clover, Hickman's potentilla, and the Pitkin Marsh lily, Lilium pardalinum ssp Pitkinense."

You've done so much good work here, I hesitate to edit your contributions without consultation. -- Mukrkrgsj 20:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

the distinction here is "endemic". not all the endangered species listed here are endemic, as the Pitkin Marsh lily. Endemic plants have a special meaning to their endemic areas and are worth singling out. Salt marsh harvest mouse and Northern red legged frog are not endemic strictly to sonoma county but occur in a somewhat larger area. moreover i have performed additional edits to note some of the other endemics. regards. Anlace 23:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The list in the first paragraph doesn't say the plants and animals are "endemic"--i.e., native here and only here. I created the second paragraph to add the "species of special local concern" not only because they had not been listed, but because they are the species of greatest concern to local developers, politicians, and environmentalists.

The lily has not been among the "species of special local concern"; and breaking out the Sebastopol Meadowfoam to note that it's "endemic" destroyed the sense of the paragraph.

I've created a new paragraph to break out the species that are "endemic" here, in the technical sense. "Endemic" is not an everyday word for most people. The Online Dictionary briefly defines it as:

1. Prevalent in or peculiar to a particular locality, region, or people: diseases endemic to the tropics. See Synonyms at native.

2. Ecology Native to or confined to a certain region.

I think most people who use the word use it in the more general first sense. I don't know if Wikipedia has a policy, but I would think it would encourage using the word in the sense the average user is likely to understand it. -- Mukrkrgsj 02:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Endemic (ecology) is a very commonly linked term in Wikipedia; it is used in over 1000 articles, and we certainly dont need to water it down for the Sonoma County article. I have linked it to the proper Wikipedia article. Anlace 02:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I edited the brief articles on Endemic (ecology), Indigenous (ecology), and Native, to correct some errors and contradictions. If you have time, please review them for accuracy. -- Mukrkrgsj 03:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)