Talk:Space exploration

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The French and Dutch Wikipedias have some more history and information regarding the emergence of Space exploration. Though I don't speak any of these languages I noticed one of them mentioned the V2 spacecraft and other historical expirements. I am wondering if someone can help in translating some material from there (I will try to figure out the machine translation, anyway... ;) , 'cause the article in its current form is rather dull.. -- Rotem Dan 22:13 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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Contents 1 Space Travel redirect 2 Jonathan's Space Home Page 3 NPOV Criticisms 4 Lack of ESA? 5 Sources 6 People 7 China 8 This article is very disappointing 9 Time Out on reverts 10 Nazi Germany 11 request for peer review 12 taikonaut 13 Merge with spaceflight 13.1 Discussion 14 Sections 14.1 cont'd

[edit] Space Travel redirect

Making Space travel redirect to Space exploration is wrong. Space travel would logically include hypthetical/fictional Science fiction) space travel, while many aspects of Space exploration do not involve human space travel, but rather robot probes (or, arguably, ground-based facilities).

I'd suggest writing an article about Space travel in fiction, then linking it here and on the appropriate science fiction pages. There's plenty of source material available, and you could even have a history... — RJH 21:08, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jonathan's Space Home Page

I included a link to this page: http://www.planet4589.org/space/ - it contains many interesting things about the topic. I don't know how Wikipedia deals with copyrights, etc. but if someone can contact Jonathan and receive his permission - his page has many interesting informations, that can be added to WikiPedia: - launch database - Jonathan Space report (very well done!!!)

[edit] NPOV Criticisms

It seems to me that this page has serious NPOV problems in the "Criticism" section. The objections made to space exploration should be presented along with the counter-arguments presented by the space advocacy community. I added the final paragraph with the fact that 71% of the public supports space exploration, but the whole section still seems overly hostile towards exploration to me. It is my opinion that the arguments made by anti-exploration individuals are weak and don't stand up under closer scrutiny, however, that's just my opinion. We should allow readers to make that cloer inspection of the arguments for themselves by presenting both sides of the debate.

I don't feel like going into all of your edits now, but you've got some things mixed up, especially in the text you added and also refer to here (with the 71% supporters). Firstly, the arguments are not against space exploration (which I'm a strong supporter of by the way), but against manned space exploration (which also seems to be referred to as 'space travel'). Also, you state that "the public and scientific community remain largely supportive of both manned and unmanned space exploration" without giving any suport for the bit about the scientific community. There may be some, but 'largely supportive' is certainly not true.

Above that you talk about the cost. Because the total government spending (where - worldwide or are you talking about the US?) is so small it's extra important that it is spent wisely. So the argument goes the other way around. Also, I don't know the exact figures, but if for the price of a manned space flight you can do ten unmanned flights, that's a strong argument against any manned flights.

Finally, your wording is not too clear. The rest of your edits don't seem to change too much about the content. It's just not too clear. So I'll do something very irritating and revert all your edits. Hopefully, people with more time can choose between the alternatives with a little more subtlety. Sorry. DirkvdM 08:05, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I added some counter-arguments and removed some POV words from the criticisms so it's a bit more balanced now. --220.245.178.137 05:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

It also says that supporters of manned spaceflight say that the true value of spaceflight is patriotism. I have never heard this outside of this article, so I doubt that it's a major viewpoint. WikiMarshall 07:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

In the article it states that critics "point out" that even a fraction of the money spent on space exploration would make an enormous difference in fighting disease and hunger in the world. The phrase "point out" suggests that something is fact and does not belong in wikipedia. Especially since what they "point out" is extremely questionable. Changing it to 'say'. Robotical 20:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of ESA?

I'm pretty sure the European Space Agency should get a word in here... they are after all rather important on the commerical front and have started exploration missions. Should I just go ahead and add it? --137.205.148.5 13:04, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

There is a debate going on in UIL over this topic, so it would be very nice if every source could be listed... Also, if there is anyone I need to contact to get the sources, please tell me. Thanks!

[edit] People

Added short description including V2 design engineer... and key people from USSR and NASA.

• No mention of Reinhold Tilling? ComaDivine 05:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
• I would be pleased to see this added - Lxs

• Added. :) ComaDivine 15:07, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

SOURCES PLEASE!!! I'd like to know where the line about Nasa only being 0.5% of total government funding comes from!!!!!!!!!!!?

If you look at the current NASA Budget, and divide it by the current United States federal budget, you get approximately 0.06, or about 1/2 of 1%. Joema 15:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] China

In my opinion, the timeline of important events should feature China's first mission into space. It was the first non-US or non-Soviet mission into space after all. 68.248.239.87 00:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is very disappointing

First, my apologies to the people who invested time on this article. I'm sure there was originally a good article in here somewhere but it has since been pecked to death by ducks. Space Exploration is among the most exciting things human beings have ever achieved but there is precious little indication of this in the Wikipedia article. The paucity of information contained in the article is almost laughable. Alan Sheppard and John Glenn's flights are not mentioned. The first flyby of Mars by Mariner IV is not mentioned (data from Mariner-IV extinguished the Percival Lowell / H.G. Wells myth that Mars was once an Earth-like world with canals from an ancient civilization, etc.). The first successful landing on Mars by Viking 1 is not discussed. Only one short sentence is provided for the destruction of the Space Shuttle Columbia but a whole paragraph is provided for the SpaceShipOne publicity stunt (SpaceShipOne's peak Mach number was 3). The whole driving factor of Cold War politics is fobbed off in a single sentence. The impact of Werner von Braun is largely ignored. The motivation behind the American Space Program can not be fully understood without mentioning von Braun's 1952 article in Collier's Magazine followed up with his 1969 "Mars Plan" proposal that was presented to Vice President Spiro Agnew. The rejection of von Braun's "Mars Plan" by President Nixon lead to the abandonment of NERVA, the Saturn-V and initiated the long road to perdition with the Space Shuttle. Finally the boring screed titled "Criticism" is out of place and violates NPOV. IMHO, this article is beyond salvage. Delete it and start again. Hopefully someone can write a respectable article given a fresh start. Egg plant 17:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that this article could use expansion and balance, you seem to have gotten the wrong end of the stick about NPOV. In fact, removing the criticism would make the article unacceptable POV. Also the amount of text given to SpaceShipOne seems entirely appropriate and suggest you look at the article Space race for details about that, far more than this page could ever support and a featured article to boot. Rmhermen 20:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

X-15 was far more capable as a high altitude aircraft and much more important to the Space Program than SpaceShipOne. X-15 was not mentioned once in the Space Exploration article despite its technological importance. The Space Exploration article needs to be rewritten from scratch. Egg plant 20:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The criticism section makes technical claims that are in part flat out wrong and in part disputed technical opinion masquerading as technical fact. It also contains poorly labeled biased opinions.

My qualifications for stating that the technical claims are wrong include being an active spacecraft designer for both manned and unmanned spacecraft. There are things that robots do well, there are things that require (at this point in history, with the technology available today) people, and there are things which people can do proportionally more efficiently than robots, though either are capable. I've done a peer-reviewed technical paper which concluded that well done science missions scientific returns per dollar are roughly equal between manned and unmanned programs. The results were not controversial.

The historical gaps pointed out by Egg plant are also legitimate serious issues with this article.

I disagree on first inspection with deletion and recreation from scratch being the best remedy. I believe we can improve in place. I am willing to commit to helping with this project.. AFTER the NASA Commercial Orbital Transportation System proposals are due and I have some semblance of free time again. Georgewilliamherbert 21:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Please do. We always like to have people write about what they really know well. Rmhermen 02:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Having just redone both my vehicle weight and balance analysis and cost timelines for my proposal, I popped back over here for a second. I would like to propose some directions to start. Let's start with some suggested references...

Burrows, This New Ocean

McDougall, ...the Heavens and the Earth : A Political History of the Space Age

Georgewilliamherbert 09:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

What georgewilliamherbert is suggesting here is that the validity of pro's and cons are purely technical. so there never was a space race in which both parties took risks to beat each other? why is nasa still operating space shuttles that would kill thousands of people a week if they were to fly as much as airliners? His analisys of the pro's and con's of manned space exploration completely depends on what it is that you want to achieve with it. yes, some things are better left to robots, but who remembers that the soviets got moon samples before the americans by using robots? robots don't say historical words, american robots don't hug soviet ones in space, robots don't get tragically killed in accidents or get hero receptions in the white house or the kremlin. so i would say that georgewilliamherberts argument is purely technical, and it is also totally dependent on what his criteria for technical success are.

Apart from this, i would also like to say that him being a designer makes him biased rather than anything else. Off course he's gonna be pro, why else would he be doing this job? will his boss tolerate a highly critical attitude? all in all, i don't think he's our man to write a great article about this subject. besides, the fact that manned space exploration is of high propaganda value is exemplified by the many strong, irrational or emotional reactions to this subject. Why can't people simply accept that climbing the mount everest or travelling to mars are simply things we better don't try?

Above unsigned comment from 134.58.253.131

For your information, you should sign your comments with four ~ characters (~~~~) to insert the name/date tag you see everywhere.

In terms of my boss, that would be me. I own the company. Not much of one, but we do get around.

I am not suggesting that there are only technical pros and cons; there is a whole world of policy (both space-specific policy, and general national and international policy and politics). There were some specific issues here with the article which made technical claims (not policy claims) which were technically simply wrong. The policy issues, distinct from technical ones, are completely a different matter.

You have some very strong opinions on the matter. That's good, you care enough to have looked at it. But it's a pretty big and complicated problem. It's true that even experts disagree about what's best to do and what risks are, but they're actually very different arguments than the ones that tend to get made in public policy debates. Georgewilliamherbert 03:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

ok george, i'm sorry about this, but i was writing the above comment, then i had to do something else, and then i completed it, but when i uploaded it i saw you had already answered it. sorry for that. if that's ok for you i'd rather delete my first draft.here is the second version i had written. as you can see it's a bit more complete:(by the way: i'm gonna register, it didn't work the first time but i'll try again)here it comes: What georgewilliamherbert is suggesting here is that the validity of pro's and cons are purely technical. so there never was a space race in which both parties took risks to beat each other? his analisys completely depends on what it is that you want to achieve with it. yes, some things are better left to robots, but who remembers that the soviets got moon samples before the americans by using robots? robots don't say historical words, american robots don't hug soviet ones in space, robots don't get tragically killed in accidents or get hero receptions in the white house or the kremlin. so i would say that georgewilliamherberts argument is purely technical, and it is also totally dependent on what his criteria for technical success are. Apart from this, i would also like to say that him being a designer makes him biased rather than anything else. Off course he's gonna be pro, why else would he be doing this job? all in all, i don't think he's our man to write a great article about this subject. i would also like to add some critisism to the 'critisism' section. First of all it doesn't even mention re-entry systems, part of which are heat shields, and the costs and technical risks of them. secondly, space programs have always been overcredited for many inventions. it didn't do all that much for the development of computers (internet porn did much more for that:-p)or for many other things. It is often overlooked that spacecraft are designed with an emphasys on safety and reliability, which often favours existing technologies. thirdly, there is the issue of usefullness of space technologies to other parts of society. computers may be vital, but what about cryogenic rocket engines, orbital maneuvring systems, adaptation of systems to zero-G and extreme temperatures, etc.? Finally, there is the issue of the large workforce that's needed to assist and recover manned spacecraft. unmanned satellites or probes need only a fraction of what manned spacecraft need. the shuttle program alone employs 25.000 people! all in all i would say that the critisism section is incomplete, and the rest of the article is even more incomplete, so instead of deleting, this article needs expansion. i've also read the dutch version. it's not bad, but it's uncritical and very brief. i think this article has a higher potential then the dutch one. xxx

Note: The Russians did not get lunar samples before the Americans. Apollo 11 was more than a year before the Luna 16 mission. Rmhermen 21:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Egg Plant's and Georgewilliamherbert's points are on target. This article commits an all-too-common Wikipedia flaw: light on meaningful detail and heavy on criticism. The primary goal of an eycyclopedia article IS NOT a critical review of the topic. It IS NOT to air pro/con positions on the topic. IT IS to document and explain the topic. Take a look at this Encarta article on the same subject: [1]. THAT is what this article should look more like. Joema 21:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that that is a good example - note that it is nine pages long - far more detailed than this article can have. That's why we have separate articles like Space Race. The criticism section cannot be eliminated - focused, verified, balannced, yes, but the article must include it. Rmhermen 21:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The length is beside the point. The Encarta article doesn't have even a short a criticism section, despite being nine pages long. The Space Race article also doesn't have a criticism section. Neither does Project Apollo. Despite cars having killed more people than all 20th century wars combined, the automobile article doesn't have a criticism section. Why? Because the prime directive of an encyclopedia is to describe the topic, NOT editorialize about it. There are plenty of opportunities on Usenet, etc for people to criticize whatever they don't like. An encyclopedia is NOT the place for that.

Does that mean no article can have a criticism section? No, but there should be unusual, overwhelming and obvious reasons that justify straying beyond our main responsibility of documenting and describing the topic. To do otherwise threatens the scholarly impartiality, the legitimacy, and ultimately the very existence of any reference work. Joema 00:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I think this article has a lot of good information, but it is not laid out to the best effect. I think a WikiProject Space Exploration needs to be created to attempt an organization of this subject matter. There should be brief sections regarding history, spacecraft, challenges, colonization, law, politics, commercial uses, etc...which redirect to the full articles. Space Exploration is way too huge a subject to be encapsulated in one article. --Exodio 17:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time Out on reverts

Y'all have just hit 3 RR. And in looking back over the history, edits, and edit history comments, I don't have a clue what the dispute is about.

Please cease and desist article edits or reverts until you explain what the problem is, and why, here in the talk page...

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert 23:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi Germany

It is nonsence to say Nazi Germany launched the first object into space.--Nixer 11:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] request for peer review

There is a request for a peer review at List of Space Exploration Milestones, 1957-1969. Bubba73 (talk), 00:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] taikonaut

this seems to be a bogus claim of a first. taikonaut is merely a chinese word for spacewalker ...the first of whom was a soviet in 1965 Winkwink 05:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with spaceflight

Spaceflight has recently been changed from a redirect by chopping sections out of this page. And little else. It is so far needless duplication. Rmhermen 01:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Spaceflight is a general article about mechanical and technical aspects of astrodynamics, spacecraft propulsion, spacecraft, launch pads, spaceports, reentry, countdown, attitude control systems, guidance, life support and so forth. This is based on the dictionary definition of spaceflight: "the flying of manned or unmanned spacecraft into or in outer space" In other words it's about transportation.

Space exploration is a general article about exploring the solar system and other stellar systems, the effects of zero gravity on humans and other life, the effects of solar and cosmic radiation. In other words it's about exploration.

I do not see that there is any significant duplication. The spaceflight article is currently a stub/under construction and Rmherman's comment that it contains little is only somewhat accurate, and very much misplaced (you've got to start an article somewhere), and an examination of the sections so far in the article should show this.WolfKeeper 02:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

p.s. On the duplication front, I did take a couple of sections out of space exploration and moved them into spaceflight after determining that they were much more to do with spaceflight than exploration. Rhmerman deleted spaceflight out of hand and moved them back. I have resurrected spaceflight but there's currently those two sections duplicated; this is temporary only and I intend that this will be sorted out by making them distinct or deletion of one or other copy.WolfKeeper 02:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The separation of the articles was prompted by me trying to merge the categories Category:Space exploration and Category:Spaceflight, and Wolfkeeper believing they shouldn't be merged.. (you may want to comment on this as well). it appears that Spaceflight has been redirected to Space exploration since 2002 with no discussion; since they are different topics, as Wolfkeeper points out, i'm guessing they should have different articles. (after all, they even have different portals). Mlm42 08:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Strong oppose to merge. Spaceflight, as noted, is a mechanical and technical subject, while space exploration is a vast field that encompasses many different issues. Barring some novel reason to merge them, I'll remove the notice later. Note that this page is on Wikipedia:Vital articles list. Marskell 14:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sections

Can we spin the timeline off or even merge it somewhere else? I've noticed a few redundant lists in this regard. We have both Timeline of the Space Race and List of space exploration milestones, 1957-1969. Only the post '75 stuff seems unique here.

Also "Key people in early space exploration". Shouldn't we turn this into a regular prose chronology? Marskell 12:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of very similar lists of these things.. see, for example, the end of List of human spaceflights.. but in this article they should definitely be summarized in prose with links to appropriate lists and timelines. Mlm42 22:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

They "should definitely be summarized in prose with links to appropriate lists and timelines." Sorry, is that agreement or disagreement? Marskell 23:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

so, agreement, i believe. since the title of the article is Space exploration, i think it should be a general article with basically no lists.. the lists and timelines would be in other articles, and summarized in this one, in prose. sorry, i may have been ambiguous in my last post a little when referring to "this article". Mlm42 07:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cont'd

Well, I've spun off the list. Now we need to do the hard work of merging stuff to avoid redundant lists. Marskell 19:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Funny, that list has been in the article for almost two years. I thought for a long time about completing it because it was very US-biased. Then I finally got around to doing that and then in no time it gets removed. Well, the proposal was already here, but still, the timing is just 'perfect'. :) Anyway, I also thought that with those flags the table should really be in Space race. In stead it has been moved to a separate article, Timeline of space exploration. The discussion continues at Talk:List of space exploration milestones, 1957-1969#Merge w/Timeline of the Space Race. This for the record. DirkvdM 10:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)