Talk:Subspecies

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excellent article! -- Tarquin 15:40 14 May 2003 (UTC)

Indeed, it does look very interesting. Good work, Mr. Tannin. I haven't read the whole thing carefully, but I'll do so a bit later. -- Oliver P. 16:02 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

Thankyou, gentlemen! There are a lot of rough edges as yet, but we will knock them over as time goes by. (Both here and in species, which is the other half of the same topic.) Thanks also to Micheal Hardy and Jimfbleak for cleaning up my dreadful spelling! Tannin

Contents 1 Subspecies in humans? 2 HUH?!!... 3 Two issues in the article 4 This is screwed up 5 Subspecies vs. race 6 Hybrids and species definitions 7 Nominate subspecies 8 Important difference between species and subspecies 9 Leaves in zoology ? 10 Bad example choice

[edit] Subspecies in humans?

This article states what criteria make groups separate species, but it doesn't really state what exactly is a subspecies. My specific question is whether the different human races (white, African, Asian, etc.) are subspecies? — Timwi 13:54, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As the definition is written it would seem we could divide humanity into several subspecies. That's probably what a Martian scientist would do, though we may be reluctant to do so ourselves. 212.30.207.97 00:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As a Martian scientist who is also from the future, I'm inclined to disagree. You people don't realize how blurred those lines are, do you? Lenoxus " * " 10:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HUH?!!...

Not really disputed so much as just really unclear....

"In taxonomy, a subspecies is the taxon immediately subordinate to a species. Members of one subspecies differ morphologically but sometimes only genetically from members of other subspecies of the species."

"but sometimes only genetically"????

What's that supposed to mean? Is it meant to say "sometimes not genetically"???

--Blackcats 19:57, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If the specimens are different genetically, they also have to be different morphologically. 2004-12-29T22:45Z 02:36, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Untrue. Many nucleotide polymorphisms can have no phenotypic/morphological effect; e.g. see neutral mutations. --DAD ^T 05:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Two issues in the article

"However, animals of the different subspecies of the same species might not interbreed even if geographical factor is removed." This statement seems to contradict the contents of the paragraph immediately preceding it. That paragraph seemed to indicate that a requirement for a group of individual organisms being clubbed together in the same subspecific category was that they would in fact interbreed, if only the obstacles (physical ones were cited as example) to doing so were removed.

Second, this article doesn't seem to give a "lower bound" on the definition: i.e. it explains a subspecies in terms of species (the coarser level of classification immediately above), but doesn't talk about what separates that taxonomic category from the immediately finer category that lies below it (subsubspecies?).

But I love wikipedia, and I love you guys. Keep up the fine work.

[edit] This is screwed up

The article contradicts itself. At first it says:

"If the two groups do not interbreed because of something intrinsic to their genetic make-up (perhaps black frogs do not find white frogs sexually attractive, or they breed at different times of year) then they are different species...If, on the other hand, the two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier was removed (perhaps there is a waterfall too high for frogs to scale, or the populations are far distant from one another) then they are subspecies."

OK, good enough. But toward the end of article...

"However, animals of the different subspecies of the same species might not interbreed even if geographical factor is removed. Differences in appearance and behavior rather often prevent the potential sex partners from recognizing each other as the sex partners. This is especially true for animals with complicated sexual rituals. Members of different species are incapable of reproduction, or produce an infertile offspring."

This is a direct contradiction with respect to animals that don't interbreed due to genetically-encoded behavioral differences. The first paragraph clearly says that they would be different species. The second implies (wrongly, in my view) that they would only be different subspecies.

[edit] Subspecies vs. race

What is the different between a 'subspecies' and a 'race'? No explanation can be found neither in this article nor the one for 'race'. (There is some discussion of it on the talk page for 'race', but nothing really clear.) Someone please explain. SpectrumDT 18:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Race (biology) might be better to use. However, I'm wondering myself about the distinctions between subspecies, race (biology), morph (zoology), cultivar, and strain (biology). There appears to be subtleties between them that I only partially grasp.

If anyone answers me, I'd appreciate a note on my talk page.

--zandperl 13:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, neither of the two articles (race_(biology) or subspecies) really differentiate. If different subspecies can reproduce viable, fertile offspring, then what is the difference between a subspecies and a race? I would assume that the use of the term subspecies to describe various races in humans would be a bit irresponsible, as many would misconstrue that as meaning "less than human", though it would simply be a taxonomical classification, the prefix "sub-" meaning only a more specific classification, not to mention bringing up discriminatory connentations, but from a strictly scientific point of view, is it just splitting hairs?Davepetr 04:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Race and subspecies are identical. Why this has become obscure I have no idea. It was practically taken for granted in my anthropology and biology courses ages ago at university. Perhaps the looser usage of "race" in more political contexts has something to do with it. If one follows the definition of subspecies (it seems a bit unclear BTW in this article compared to what I learned), then it becomes obvious that there are no human races except one. Today, genetics also makes that case on an even firmer basis. Tmangray 08:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hybrids and species definitions

Honestly, the last part of this article is just wrong. Unfortunately, interbreeding is not a clear-cut means of defining species taxonomically. It was long thought that different species that succeeded in reproducing would produce only sterile offspring--but we now know that is definitely untrue. The production of fertile offspring (consistantly fertile) from a pairing of milk and corn snakes proves this. These animals aren't only different species--they're not even in the same genus! (Lampropeltis spp. and Pantherophis guttata). We've also discovered that some hybrid pairings produce sterile animals only part of the time. It's rare to find a fertile mule, but it has happened. More commonly, ligers and tigons (tiger/lion hybrids) have been found to be fertile. So this section needs to be changed to reflect the reality--at the very least, it must be mentioned that this is not a reliable indicator of species. --WingedWolf 10:31 AM mtn, 10 April, 2006

[edit] Nominate subspecies

I've just redirected "Nominate subspecies" here. In addition, I believe there are a number of synonyms for this term:

• Nominate race
• Nominate form
• Typical form
• Nominotype
• Nominate

I'm sure the first two are okay, but how about the other ones? --Jwinius 01:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll answer this myself: they're all okay, except for "nominotype." It seems I made this one up myself, having subconsciously derived it from the term "nominotypical." For a while, I used "nominotype" in a number of the Viperidae articles I was writing, but then got suspicious, discovered my error and replaced it. However, that was not before a number of other sites (i.e. answers.com) had copied those articles. Now it seems that there's even an academic paper out there that's uses this bogus term. Or, it "nominotype" actually an obscure, but correct term after all? --Jwinius 11:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Just for interest...the term for a name created automatically at the sub-specific level, if one or more subspecies or varieties is described within a species (that differ from the type), is autonym. This name is always the same as the specific epithet of the nomenclatural type of that species, and no authorship is attributed to it. --- Andy C 1 08:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Important difference between species and subspecies

I moved this section (below) to the talk page because it contradicts and/or replicates the rest of the article. If someone who understands population genetics better than I do sees items in this section that should go back into the article, please weave them back in.

Subspecies: a taxonomic subdivision of a species. A group of organisms whose behavior and/or genetically encoded morphological and physiological characteristics differ from those of other members of their species. Members of different subspecies of the same species are potentially capable of breeding with each other and of producing fertile offspring. However, animals of different species may not interbreed even if there is no geographical impediment. Differences in appearance and behavior often prevent members of different species from recognizing each other as potential sex partners. This is especially true for animals with complicated sexual rituals. Members of different species are either incapable of reproducing, or will produce infertile offspring.

Twisted86 04:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Subspecies vs. varieties vs. non-formal ranks (A botanical perspective)

I hope this may clarify a few things if no-ones mentioned it already. (I’m speaking from a botanist’s point of view here, so forgive me if it conflicts with zoological taxonomy.) This isn't meant to be an exact description of all of these concepts, but more of an example of how they may be applied in real situations.

‘Subspecies’ is a formal taxonomic rank below the rank of species, outlined by the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature. It is generally applied to groups of organisms within a species which are genetically or morphologically differentiated from one another, sufficiently so to recognise them as distinct groups. Whether or not organisms belonging to a subspecies within a species can interbreed with other subspecies will depend on the organisms in question; and this is not generally used to define what constitutes a subspecies (particularly in plant groups where hybridisation may be possible).

The decision to circumscribe subspecies may be based on a number of factors, including morphological or genetic differentiation, which may result from geographic disjunction, or habitat differences, amongst other things; and generally subspecies are thought to represent distinct evolutionary lineages that may be islolated, reproductively, from other subspecies; therefore, the line between species and subspecies can often be difficult to establish. Species are generally thought to be dynamic, and under the influence of micro-evolutionary processes (i.e. gene flow, genetic drift etc), and therefore subspecies may represent, in some situations, groups of organisms in the process of speciation. For the most part, there are no clear rules regarding ‘cut-off points’ of genetic or morphological differentiation to tell us when subspecies should be treated as species or vice versa; so it is often left up to the judgement of the taxonomist to make these distinctions based on all of the available data. Generally, though, there will be a certain amount of overlap among two subspecies (in terms of morphology, etc), which would prevent the taxonomist from confidently treating them as distinct species.

In practice, taxonomists make decisions on the circumscription of groups within a species based on a number of lines of evidence; e.g. morphology, genetic similarity, anatomy, cytology etc. While subspecies do not always represent distinct evolutionary lineages within a species, it is a useful rank for classifying and conceptualising sub-specific groups, which can have broader application for, for example, biodiversity conservation. Taxonomic revisions within many groups of organisms occur all of the time, and the addition of new data often results in rank changes or new circumscriptions, e.g. a species may be split into several different species; subspecies may be raised to species rank etc; so these groups are not static.

Idealistically, one of the goals of taxonomy is to produce a system of classification which reflects evolutionary history; however, this does not always happen, nor is it always appropriate. But this is a huge area of debate, and not worth going into here.

‘Variety’ is another taxonomic rank subordinate to ‘subspecies’, and is most commonly used in botany, though not as often these days. Today, the variety rank is typically used to classify groups/populations of plants which may be somewhat morphologically distinct from other members of the species; however, this may not need to have any genetic basis. Often varieties of plants within a species may be morphologically distinct due to phenotypic changes resulting from differences in habitat, and so the ‘variety’ rank can be useful for circumscribing groups of organisms occupying different ecological niches to the remaining members of the species. Again, this definition is fairly simplified, and generally it’s left up to the taxonomist to decide what should and shouldn’t be described as distinct varieties within their study organisms. Historically, some taxonomists working with a particular species used only the variety rank to circumscribe infraspecific groups; others used only ‘subspecies’; and often there was no clear distinction drawn between the two ranks. While this distinction is debatable, taxonomists tend to stick with the rank that previous workers have used to reduce confusion. For example, within the family of plants I work with, only the variety rank has been used, so I am inclined to keep with this tradition. Also, changing between the two could create problems with name priority.

‘Race’, on the other hand, is not a formal taxonomic rank in botany (and indeed is not commonly used in botany), along with other informal group terms such as ‘morphotype’, ‘morph’, etc.. These terms are typically used to define groups within a species with some minor morphological difference (e.g. a population of plants with slightly different coloured petals to the remainder of the plants within the species), or genetic difference (for example a difference in a single microsatellite locus), which makes it stand out from other members of the species. As species often display some amount of morphological variability across their geographical range, slight differences in some populations are generally not considered sufficient evidence to warrent their formal recognition. These terms, therefore, are often used by biologists/taxonomists, when a formal rank should not be given, or if it is unsure whether or not a formal rank should be given. ‘Cultivar’ is generally used among horticulturalists, when new ‘species’ are artificially created; however, cultivar names do have their own nomenclatural rules. ‘Strain’ is generally used for bacteria or other microbes, I believe, but that’s not my area. ---- Andy C 1 07:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leaves in zoology ?

The intro says it applies to zoology only, while one of the examples under the Criteria section refers to the shape of the leaves. StuRat 06:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bad example choice

The article says: "For an example of a subspecies, see Pied Wagtail." I love the idea of giving a specific example, but that page is now a redirect to the species, not a separate page for the subspecies. Do you think that we could get an example that has its own page on wikipedia instead? — Eric Herboso 19:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)