Talk:Suffering

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Bring this article on Suffering to the best quality possible. See Grading scheme : it seems we should go from a B-Class article to a GA-Class article. Therefore, see What is a good article. Eventually, we should attain the FA grade: see What is a featured article. Most sections of the article remain to be expanded. People who have a special concern within the whole subject could help in developing one section or the other. For technical how-to information see Help:Contents, and especially Editing Wikipedia. Robert Daoust 19:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Bring this article on Suffering to the best quality possible. See Grading scheme : it seems we should go from a B-Class article to a GA-Class article. Therefore, see What is a good article. Eventually, we should attain the FA grade: see What is a featured article.

Most sections of the article remain to be expanded. People who have a special concern within the whole subject could help in developing one section or the other.

For technical how-to information see Help:Contents, and especially Editing Wikipedia.

Robert Daoust 19:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Suffering as an Emotion

The article states that suffering, by definition, includes an emotion of unhappiness or something similar, and states that suffering in and of itself is an emotion. I would strongly disagree with this - while suffering would likely make someone unhappy, I would not call suffering an emotion. I suggest that the article be changed to reflect this, and that it be removed from the category of emotions. -Lommer 04:07, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think Lommer might have something there. Suffering seems to transend emotion. It is less of an understanding and more of a state. Stargoat 06:30, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Suffering is said to be an emotion, but see Emotion : this is not clear, suffering is also a 'feeling'. But all this is a question of definition. Pain also is an emotion according to the definition of the International Association for the Study of Pain. -Robert Daoust 02:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Boredom

Aren't "suffering" and "boredom" quite different? - David Stewart 09:14 28 May 2003 (UTC)

Well, it is some mild kind of suffering. Since we do not have much text about it I thought a separate article was not needed, for now. - Patrick 10:04 28 May 2003 (UTC)

It is a subject of psychological study eg. rptsweb.tamu.edu/courses/489/Boredom.PDF and www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/d/e/dec9/courses/mfs.pdf It causes dogs to chase tails, rats to go mad, birds to pick their feathers, and crime amongst humans. Would have though it deserved its own topic! -David Stewart 11:10 28 May 2003 (UTC)

I did not mean that it does not deserve a separate article. Please go ahead, write more about it. - Patrick 11:17 28 May 2003 (UTC)

Sadness

Question: Why do we cry when we are sad? What happens physiologically to cause crying and what is the evolutionary purpose to tears?kpa

I've seen sad in the "uncool" sense linking here. Does that need a separate article, or is there somewhere I could redirect the link to? 212.159.61.65 17:47, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This "sadness = suffering" is anti-Western. Is sadness a Western cultural artifact? What about redirecting to grief or to despair? There seems to be enough consensus here to merit a new approach to sadness.

Miscellaneous

Do we not need to include something on the 3 different types of suffering - deliberate accidental and natural?

Suffering and the Brain

Neuroscience has now pretty well isolated the "suffering centre of the brain". It's the anterior cingulate cortex (or gyrus). It fires up if a healthy person gets a dagger between the ribs, like several other centres (eg. primary and secondary somatosensory cortices and dorsal anterior insula) but, unlike these, it fires up when you recieve a rejection cue too. That is, the anterior cingulate cortex is active in the presence of both physical and socially inflicted suffering. Would it be appropriate for someone to contribute an essay on the neuroscience of suffering, do you think?

--Anthony Cole 19:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tony. I noticed your correction about the insula. You removed however the banner about factual accuracy : I believe it has to be there because the pain overlap theory is much too recent. Anyway, the neuroscience section on suffering should be a lot more developed, shouldn't it? --Robert Daoust 17:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Robert. I completely agree. I'll try to interest someone who really knows about this stuff.

Collaboration

I am looking for at least one collaborator in order to bring eventually a major edit to this article.--Robert Daoust 21:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction and Article Structure

Hi Robert, how about we start with the definition and introduction. I would refine the opening sentences to:

Suffering is the subjective experience of mental or emotional distress, often associated with, but not synonymous with physical pain, instances of loss or difficult circumstances.

All human beings suffer during their lives, and therefore suffering has been a significant topic of discussion in philosophy and religion.

I'm aware that that doesn't say it all, so please add in what you think is necessary.

As far as structure of the article, what about four broad categories:

philosophical/religious/ethical perspectives
psychological aspects (coping, escapism, etc)
physiological aspects (this is really not my area - but I would put the neuroscience etc in here)
literary/artistic perspectives (include links to significant artistic works and endeavours that engage with suffering)

What do you think?

Equipoise 08:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Good categories, Equipoise! I would complete your list thus:

philosophical/religious/ethical perspectives
psychological and biological/physiological/neurological aspects (coping, escapism, physical pain and mental distress mechanisms, brain imaging, etc)
anthropological/social/legal/historical aspects
health care perspectives (medical or other approaches to body or mind problems inducing pain or suffering)
political/humanitarian/philanthropic perpectives (including disaster relief, human rights activism, economic development, social services, environmental concerns, etc.)
literary/artistic/media perspectives (including links to significant artistic works and endeavours that engage with suffering, and to works on media approaches to suffering)

Concerning the Introduction and definition, this is the hardest part! I like your paragraph on significance, and would expand it a little. But your definition raises an important difficulty. The present definition in the article, from I don't know who, is far from perfect, but I'd say it is on the good track. You go toward 'a mental not physical pain' view of suffering, and that is a big big problem : at what point do you suffer from a tooth, let's say? As soon as it is unpleasant, I would say. Then, pain is suffering as soon as it is unpleasant. So there is suffering, and pain is just one form of it, like anxiety is one form of it. There is ambiguity on the use of the word suffering, sometimes it means mental distress, sometimes it means everything unpleasant. Same thing for pain: sometimes it means physical hurt, sometimes mental hurt. So, maybe we should begin by straigthening this out...

Robert Daoust 19:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I like the addition of the anthropological/etc and the political/etc categories. I wonder though whether we're best to keep the personal/psychological and the biological/neurological separate. Not merely because of the distinction between social and natural sciences, but merely because most people cope with suffering without reference to a deep understanding of the physiological aspects of their experience. Under psychological/personal, I would include responses such as addictive behaviours, escapism, guilt patterns, etc. Equipoise 02:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point re the distinction between suffering and pain. I would define suffering as the subjective response to the objective experience. So, a pin prick may cause pain (an objective neural event), but not necessarily suffering. Likewise, financial loss, such as caused by a stock market crash, is an objective event - suffering is the human response to it. By separating out the objective and subjective, I don't mean to say that it is a choice to experience suffering from an instance of pain or loss, merely that the two are not synonymous - the causal relationship is more complicated. Equipoise 02:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Separate psycho from bio, sure... On definition, suffering is subjective, yes. but pain cannot be defined as an objective neural event (or then so can be suffering), as every pain scientist will tell you. The pin prick is an 'objective event' but what if it is on a dead body... Events and emotions are two different categories, and I am afraid that defining one by having recourse to the other is like defining an orange by its price on the market... I will come back tomorrow with a tentative definition, so that you will be able to agree or disagree on it... By the way, I reordered this page, because I had some problems finding your last messages... Robert Daoust 23:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

New Introduction is offered. The word 'uses' refers to what should be another of our categories:

uses of suffering in politics (war, torture), law (penology), crime, interpersonal relationships (abuses in family, in the workplace), performance {sports (athletes), arts (ballerine, creators,…), business (workers, managers)…

Robert Daoust 21:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)