Talk:Swallow

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Contents 1 Myths and Stories about Swallows 2 Swallow Tattoos 3 Requested move 3.1 Survey 3.2 Discussion 4 What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? 5 Article rated per request

[edit] Myths and Stories about Swallows

Are there any myths or stories about swallows?

Well, they're mentioned often in Monty Python and the Holy Grail... dunno if that's the sort of thing you're looking for, though.--Deridolus 06:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

If there are, they are likely to be specific to individual species, esp Barn Swallow jimfbleak 12:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I think we should include somthing about Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[edit] Swallow Tattoos

What is the meaning of tattoos of swallows?

It is classically a nautical symbol for sailors meaning good luck & that they would always find their way back to land. Christinaphx 00:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)christinaphx

[edit] Requested move

Swallow (bird) → Swallow – to put the main meaning of "Swallow" at Swallow. --Yath 11:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support. The alternatives are all less important and derived from the bird, except for the verb, where the article is for swallowing, not swallow. jimfbleak 13:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support. And Swallow (disambiguation) works for me. --Usgnus 14:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support. --Swift 06:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

• If this obvious move is carried out, the article needs to have a revised introduction as below.

The swallows and martins are a group of passerine birds in the family Hirundinidae which are characterised by their adaptation to aerial feeding. Swallow is also used in Europe as a synonym for the Barn Swallow.

This family comprises two subfamilies…..

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimfbleak (talk • contribs) 13:32, 27 July 2006.

This can happen whether the page moves or not --Usgnus

True - I'll do it. jimfbleak 15:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC) (remembered this time)

[edit] What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

I'm actually pretty curious about this, and I would presume that others would come to wikipedia for more information on the matter. McKay 19:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I found a good resource at style.org. Perhaps the information should be included here? McKay 19:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Not here, should be on the species' page. There is no reason to suppose that other swallows of different sizes and structure have the same aerodynmics. jimfbleak 05:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

A. half the species articles don't exist (red links).

B. the swallow list is incomplete (I know there happens to be a "west african swallow", but don't know which genus they're in or I'd add them.

C, are you claiming that "African Swallow" and "European Swallow" are species of birds? My guess is no, but then would a seperate article be written about African swallows and European swallows (that don't reference Monty Python and the Holy Grail). If so, is there enough information to create an encyclopedic article about the African swallows? My guess for this would also be "no", in which case the information belongs best here. McKay 05:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Or add this information to the article on the Holy Grail given that the two swallow articles redirect there. --Swift 08:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

B The list is complete, "West African Swallow" must be a synomym or subspecies

C If they are not real species, I agree that the grail suggestion is most appropriate. If the data doesn't refer to real birds, what's the point? However, the source above identifies a plausible candidate for African Swallow, and European Swallow must surely be Barn Swallow jimfbleak 14:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't claim to really know anything on swallows, so I defer to your wisdom in this regard. The information might belong on the movie's page, but I think it should belong with swallows.

B The source above references "Hirundo domicella" as the west african swallow, and that one isn't in the list. He does reference a couple sources that I'm not sure of their accuracy, but here they are anyway:

• Chris & Tilde Stuart, Birds of Africa: From Seabirds to Seed-Eaters, MIT Press (1999)
• G. L. Maclean, Roberts’ Birds of Southern Africa, John Voelcker Bird Book Fund, Cape Town, South Africa (1985)

C With your suggestion that Barn Swallow is possibly the swallow referred to in Monty Python, You're probably right, but I am curious as to why you think that that is the one? Is it the most common kind of swallow in Europe? I did look at that article, and that article does have an estimate for the swallows speed. That's good.

So, that's my two bits. Just thought I'd make the query. McKay 23:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm really going out on a limb here, but is it a possiblity (even a remote one) that the members of Monty Python, instead of looking up in their reference books, just used "European" and "African" as makeshift official terms? I'm not saying that the jokes were seldome elaborate, but might it be possible that Monty Python just went cheap on the research? (Not that I'm eager to end this discussion — a great source of joy :-D). --Swift 03:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I will totally admit that this is a possibility, but the fact remains that people really do want to know the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow. Also, it seems in line with the text of the movie. "the swallow may fly south with the sun..." "What, a swallow carrying a coconut?" "it could be carried by an african swallow" "Oh, yeah, an african swallow maybe, but not a European swallow, that's my point." See, because Arthur said swallow, the guard just assumed the Barn Swallow, the swallow known by "swallow" in Europe, or the European swallow. The other guard was thinking outside the box, and thought of the (biggest) swallow he could think of, the African Swallow. Or maybe he just meant Swallows that inhabit Africa (they might generally be bigger). Really, I don't know anything about swallows, but I do think that people will come looking for the answer to that question. It doesn't have to mention the movie at all, but I predict that readers will come. Take Assyria. Another of the questions asked by the bridgekeeper, is "What is the capital of Assyria" the article on this nation-state lists the capitals that it has had. If we knew the time period during which the movie took place, we could determine what the capital should be based on that article. McKay 05:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

the guard just assumed. Erm. You do realize that these are fictional characters. And their dialogue is composed with humor, not logical or robust structure in mind! ;-)

As for the list of capitals which the Assyrian Empire has had; are you implying that they were put up to answer the bridgekeeper's question?! If you are simply pointing out the usefulness of such information, then I'd argue that it would be most useful to list the airspeed info on the Monty Python and the Holy Grail article as the origin of this question is of (equal? more?) importance and interest. --Swift 19:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I realize that they are fictional characters, but their conversation is valid according to English. When someone mentions "swallows" when referring to birds, particularly in Europe, it is an ambiguous reference. They could mean the Hirundinidae family, or they could mean the barn swallow, the movie plays on this ambiguity.

No, Assyria should have the information on the capitals regardless of the movie, capitals are an integral part of an article on a nation-state. If someone really wanted to know the capital of Assyria, they should check the article on Assyria. If someone wants to know the airspeed velocity of an (unladen) swallow, he should probably find that at Swallow or Airspeed velocities of various birds or Effects of loads on the velocity of air flight or something like that. The articles on swallows seems the most natural place for this kind of information.

But that doesn't mean it should belong here. My question here is what "african swallow" means. This page mentions only one "african swallow" the South African Swallow, the style article mentions two, the South African Swallow and the West African Swallow. Does such a species exist? Swift mentions that African and European may be made up, but "European Swallow" is not an incorrect term? What does "African Swallow" typically mean? One species? a group? McKay 20:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article rated per request

I gave this article a start rating. There is some information here, but a lot is still missing. The habitat section is currently just the nesting site - rather than anything else. I'm dubious that swallows hold territories (I'll check later), no information on taxonomy, relatives, worldwide distribution, migration, relationship with humans. Breeding information is currently in two separate places, and incomplete. Can I suggest a layout for family pages similar to that used by albatross? (Vain, I know, since I wrote it, but its based on the layout used in HBW). Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Habitat (other than aerial) is difficult for the family as a whole, some are open country, some woodland, some always near water. Same migration, some do, some don't. Some of this is covered in the species accounts. I have Turner and Rose, Swallows and Martins ISBN 0-7470-3205-5. if that helps. jimfbleak 06:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it could be covered in broad strokes. Most familes are fairly diverse, and there are always exceptions. Writing family pages is really hard but something that needs to be tackled. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)