Talk:Tai Chi Chuan
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Tai Chi Chuan was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.
Date of review: 8 December 2006 |
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Tai Chi Chuan was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.
Date of review: 2007-03-11 |
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[edit] A suggestion or two for improvement
1. It is not necessarily true that most scholars agree that taijiquan began with the Chen family. Taijiquan's history, in fact, is in some dispute. For many years, Zhang San Feng was (and still is by many people) regarded as the founder of taijiquan. In recent years the Chen family has laid claim as the founders of taijiquan. A third arguement states that no one individual or family created taijiquan but, rather, the art evolved through the centuries from several different sources.
The arguement that Zhang San Feng was the founder of taijiquan is based on his authorship of the first of the tai chi classics. Scholars dispute the authenticity of this claim, however, pointing out that others could have just as easily authored the essay. Add to that, some historical suggestions that Zhang San Feng may have been nearly 200 years old and it is not hard to see why this story is often dismissed.
The Chen family's claim to authorship of taijiquan depends on how you define taijiquan. If, for example, you define it as an art utilizing the taiji principles as outlined in the taiji classics, then there are documented arts in China as early as the 7th century that fit this definition (see: "The Dao of Taijiquan" by Jou Tsung Hwa). Further, many of the guiding principles and energies of the art (chan si jing, fa jing, etc.) also predate Chen style taijiquan and are found in older arts including xingyiquan. Ba fa (ward off, roll back, press, push, etc.) are also found in arts older than Chen style taijiquan and many of the postures found in Chen style exist in martial art styles predating Chen Wanting.
I would like to suggest that the author offer the arguements on all sides and allow the reader to decide.
2. The author cites only two key components to training - solo form and push hands. No where is mentioned the most crucial aspect of taijiquan training - zhan zhuang (standing training). Most all traditional taijiquan schools begin students with zhan zhuang. Standing training serves many purposes. First, it helps practitioners memorize proper structure in static postures. Secondly, it teaches students to find and maintain complete muscle relaxation (song). Third, it trains concentration and intention (yi) through utilization of advanced mental exercises designed to facilitate contraindication within the musculature. The end result is a process that eliminates muscle tension while at the same time increasing strength, speed, reflexes and reaction time. Once this state can be maintained in a static position, the next stage is to introduce this state into movement. This is where tai chi form comes in. Perhaps most importantly, without the inclusion of standing training in the beginning stages, it is much more difficult to learn to produce and maintain peng jing, a key energy in taijiquan.
I would like to suggest that the author researches the subject and append their entry to include zhan zhuang. For further study, some of the more advanced standing techniques can be found in Yiquan, a martial system founded by the legendary master Wang Xiangzhai.
Sincerely,
Jim Donnelly, Director, American Society of Internal Arts, www.AmericanSocietyOfInternalArts.org
HANDS FOLDED IN RESPECT —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jdonnelly001 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
- Greetings. The concerns you mention are addressed in the current article, if in the passive voice usually used to minimize controversy. We don't actually say the Chens invented T'ai Chi, but we say the current orthodox styles, all came through the Chen family. Other claim this or that, but haven't provided independent verification. We also give a mention to the Chang San-feng story, as well as mentioning the gradual evolution theory and the neo-Confucians. Reference is given to an exhaustive study of the origins of the art by Douglas Wile. I don't personally aagree with Wile's speculations, but the info he provides, names and dates, is valuable. The Debate on the origins of Tai Chi Chuan would actually be an excellent separate article.
- Post standing is mentioned in the bit on nei kung:
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- Breathing exercises; nei kung (內功 nèigōng) or, more commonly, ch'i kung (氣功 qìgōng) to develop ch'i (氣 qì) or "breath energy" in coordination with physical movement and post standing or combinations of the two. These were formerly taught only to disciples as a separate, complementary training system. In the last 50 years they have become more well known to the general public.
- Different schools have different approaches. Zhan zhuang is vitally important, but it is one of four varieties of meditation taught. The Yang family (esp. Yang Zhenduo, as he mentioned 11 years or so back in Smalheiser's T'ai Chi Magazine) have de-emphasised it in their curriculum in recent years. The Wu family teach it, but they teach moving stance training first, as they feel it is more difficult (and more valuable in this case) to learn to balance while learning to coordinate different body parts. Later they get people into as many 30 minute horse stances and golden roosters as they'd like ;-). Cheers, --Fire Star 火星 14:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Fire Star,
Zhan zhuang is, unfortunately, a poorly understood topic. Post standing is a multi-purpose tool, not one single practice. The posting referred to in the neigong section of wikipedia refers to the use of standing as a form of qi development. While this type of exercise may be found in taiji schools, this is not the same zhan zhuang used for structural training. Likewise, zhan zhuang is not the same as deep standing for 30 minutes in postures. That type of standing is designed primarily for developing leg conditioning and balance. Nor is it simply a form of meditation as one usually thinks of meditation. Yiquan probably comes closest to describing the old methods of standing training, although some argue that, as practiced today, even Yiquan has been watered down a bit. As for Yang Zhenduo, despite being the head of the Yang family, he doesn't necessarily speak for taijiquan masters everywhere. He's just one of hundreds with a single viewpoint. Good Holidays!
Jim Donnelly, Hands Folded In Respect
While you certainly show credible knowledge and sources mr. Donnelly, I have to disagree with you. The majority of credible scholars place Zhang San Feng in the same context as such chinese cultural hero-founders as the famous general Yue Fei. That is to say, most likely a real person at some point, but who has been mythologized enormously. Zhang San Feng is not only credited as the founder by taiji practitioners, but by just about anyone practicing an art with internal characteristics. While the idea that the Chens are the first and sole originators of taiji principles or the first incarnation of the ba fa is totally inane, it does not make a semi-mythical character in chinese folk tales out to be the sole originator. like you said, taiji is really the work of hundreds of individuals throughout the generations contributing to its development. and just to repeat FireStar's arguement...while I personally agree about the importance of standing meditation, it is by a huge margin NOT the core taiji practice in the west or east among current practitioners. though regretable, we can all regcognize that the days of students spending weeks/months only learning zhan zhuang are over. Just look at the advent of the multitude of short forms, people have neither the time nor the inclination to spend that much time on zhan zhuang as a core/founding practice. We are not going to return to some "golden age" of taiji where people revere zhan zhuang practice. VanTucky 20:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'll try to dig up the Yang Zhenduo interview, perhaps that would be a good way to source the changing rôle of the practise.
- In the T'ai Chi meditation methods I learned from the Wu family, zhan zhuang was 1/4 of the whole, there was:
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- Stillness inside/stillness outside (zhan zhuang)
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- Stillness inside/movement outside (forms, pushing hands, some nei kung)
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- Movement inside/stillness outside (hsiao t'ien in various positions)
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- Movement inside/movement outside (silk reeling)
- Unfortuantely, I hasven't found this actually written down in my sources anywhere, so as interesting material as it is, I can't put it in the article! I'll keep looking of course... Cheers, --Fire Star 火星 14:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] stub expansion
I was just considering the idea of expanding the number of tai chi stubs like the single whip stub. a group of stub explaining the postures of tai chi found in every style (single whip, grasp bird's tail etc.) and detailing the differences in execution and application. anyone want to collaborate? VanTucky 01:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Tchoung Ta Chen Style?
I just discovered the pages for the so-called Tchoung style tai chi. Not disputing that this guy taught his own version of tai chi which was obviously Yang influenced. But his students claim he learned from a much older generation of Yang teachers than Yang Chengfu, this and other claims by the people who wrote the page (his students of course) allude to the Tchoung style being "original" Yang style that is superior to the lineage of all other Yang teachers. Historical truth not withstanding, wikipedia has strict NPOV and if we dont let people write their own bios, then we sure as hell cant let his students lord it over the article of their "style" claiming to be the pure standard bearers of Yang teachings. I suggest the article for a serious overhaul, maybe even deletion. VanTucky 20:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
- I've only ever heard of the style just now (not that that means much) and I agree the articles need to be either completely re-written or removed. Good catch. --Fire Star 火星 21:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I've revamped them for npov. this makes them okay for inclusion I think, though having not a single indedpendent citation, they are still on shaky ground. VanTucky 21:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I've moved that the contents of Tchoung Ta Chen style tai chi be merged with the Yang style page. VanTucky 21:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Consistency of links
The following two articles link to tai chi, should there not also be reverse links here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguazhang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X%C3%ADngy%C3%ACqu%C3%A1n
Currently there seems to be no mention of these two associated arts that are frequently taught alongside tai chi. (CJE) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.169.45.170 (talk) 12:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Translation?
first of sorry but i dont know how to input chinese yet. second, the quan or chuan in tai chi chuan or taiji quan does mean fist when used by itself. however in martial arts it connotes "boxing" to distinguish itself from just taiji, which is just a philosophical theory. Almost all Chinese martial arts have a quan at the end to denote it being a "boxing" style and not just a family name. However, quan or chuan in itself means fist.--Blckavnger 15:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Definition Needed of Qigong
The word Qigong is used a few times in the article, but there is no definition of it. I suggest adding at least a short parenthetical definition after the first reference. (I would add it myself, but I don't know what it is.) --Skb8721 17:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- We've got:
- Breathing exercises; nei kung (內功 nèigōng) or, more commonly, ch'i kung (氣功 qìgōng) to develop ch'i (氣 qì) or "breath energy" in coordination with physical movement and post standing or combinations of the two.
- The initial definition of "breathing exercises" is pretty accurate. From there, the opinions differ widely what they entail, and those opinions can be treated better at the linked articles like nei kung, ch'i kung, ch'i, zhan zhuang, etc. --Fire Star 火星 17:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Its not really necessarry to include a definition. Thats what internal links are for. If someone doesnt know what Qigong is, then they read the definition on the Qigong page. VanTucky 23:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Failed GA
No inline citations. Also, for future reference, you should put {{GAnominee|date}} here on the talk page when you nominate, as described in the directions at WP:GAC. --Ideogram 04:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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