Talk:Tenerife disaster

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Tenerife disaster was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: August 31, 2006

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An event in this article is a March 27 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

Is there really a need for "the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 not taken into account." - Well, of coruse they're not taken into account, given they were not an accident?

Agreed. I have removed the comment. Lbbzman 12:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

What were the flight numbers of these planes? -- Zoe

This article sure reads like it was written for some other purpose than an encyclopedia. Ortolan88 sa

so the PanAm first pilot survived - what happened to him in the end? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PMA (talk • contribs) 09:47, 29 March 2003.

I met him in a hotel lounge in Madrid, Spain in 1981. He had eyeglasses with lens like the bottom of pop bottels (a result of the accident of course). He said he saw the KLM plane approaching and was in shock - couldn't believe he had lived. For the rest of his life he is able to fly for free but will be effected for the rest of his life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.49.99.96 (talk • contribs) 07:47, 31 December 2004.

The top says this was the greatest plane disaster till Sept. 11, 2001; the bottom says this was the greatest plane disaster till 1996... which is it? -- Chinju It was certainly the greatest plane accident. To me it is still the greatest plane disaster as well (and I am Dutch).

I believe the 'The Tenerife tower watched helplessly...' paragraph from the original article is totally false, based on this [http://www.panamair.org/Accidents/sectenerife.htm Secretary of Aviation Report]. According to that, the tower continued handling other planes and waiting for a reply from the Pan Am, not knowing anything was wrong until they got reports of a fire on the field from other planes and u are quite right, Greg. (And welcome to the 'pedia.) It's on my "to-do" list - but that list is (at last count) 10,497 items long, and growing by the day. Why not hop in and do it yourself? What's the worst that can happen? Someone crosses out what you wrote and you feel silly? Don't worry about it! be bold in updating pages.) -- Tannin 12:15, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There is something hazy about the following snip from the page

"Air traffic control gave the KLM plane an airways clearance, signifying that the way was clear for the aircraft once it was in the air, however, the KLM plane mistakenly thought they had heard the tower grant them permission for the take off itself.. "

ATC gave KLM clearance for what? To proceed to the takeoff /hold area? Does the word it apply to the Pan Am plane? If it does then we should say so to make it clear. Moriori 03:05, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

By airway clearance they are refering to an IFR Clearance. Which involves checking with all the different controllers monitoring the airspaces through which an aircraft will be passing to verify flying a particular course at this given altitude will allow sufficent seperation from other aircraft. This is usually received through clearance delivery. Prior to taking off the tower will issue a clearance to takeoff, which involves instructions to fly a heading to some fix. Usually ending with "as filed" so long as the IFR flight plan has not been amended. None of these clearances however are a clearance to take-off. Only a clearance to fly a particular route. The haziness and confusion that you get by reading the CVR transcripts is believed to be a causual factor that lead to the take-off roll and forced takeoff of the KLM aircraft, which inevitably led to the accident. The confusion is also due to the use of non-standard phraseology. i5xswipe@gmail.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.142.56.201 (talk • contribs).

It is the KLM plane, ATC told them that the route was clear, once they had been given permission to take off. (Barry m 03:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC))

1 Canarian politics
2 The PanAm pilot
3 Pan Am flight, take-off date?
4 the aeroplanes
5 Fog equipment?
6 Standard/non-standard phrases
7 Broken Link
8 Sensational additions
9 CVR recordings
10 KLM Survivors
11 discovery doc
12 Failed GA
13 Airport location
14 Recent additions
15 Mistake
16 KLM fuel edit
17 Neutrality?
18 KLM Advert with Captain Van Zanten's picture
19 CVR transcript

[edit] Canarian politics

Who were those Canary Islands separatists? The MPAIAC?

As far as I know the bombthreat came from the seperatist movement of ETA. BramvR

From poking around it was reported as Canarian separatists at the time. The acronym I found was "MIACA" but I could not determine what this stood for, or if it's the same as MPAIAC, or if there are translation difficulties. This may need to be resolved with a Nexis search. --Dhartung | Talk 10:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I've checked some old info about the disaster. The bomb came from MPAIAC. AFAIK, ETA has never put a bomb at the Canary Islands (where I'm from)

Heimy 00:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, Air Traffic Control did give KLM permission to take off. Capt Van Zanten was an experienced pilot but had done most of his recent work in the simulator, so wasn't used to even asking permission and had begun his take-off run without it until reminded by another crew member. On being told 'you have permission to take off' he immediately put on full power and didn't listen to the rest of the message. Dbiv 14:25, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What exactly was the Pan Am plane doing? Was it taxiing after landing? The article didn't quite make it clear. Dukeofomnium 20:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Both aircraft where back-taxiing the active runway for takeoff, which in short means they were taxiing down the runway going in the opposite direction of the way you will takeoff using the same runway. This was to position the aircraft at the proper end of the runway to takeoff. They were back-taxiing because other aircraft where parked on the paralleling taxi-way. Back-taxiing however is not an uncommon practice. No aircraft should be taking off while another aircraft is on the runway. In this accident the KLM aircraft got to the end of the runway and turned around to takeoff and inevitably did so while the Pan American aircraft was still on the runway taxiing toward them. The Pan American aircraft was suppose to turn onto the paralleling taxiway before it did, but for unknown reasons they continued to back-taxi the runway toward the next exit to the taxi-way. I5xswipe@gmail.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.142.56.201 (talk • contribs).

I deleted the part saying the KLM misinterpreted the Tenerife towers instructions. I've clarified that part to imply what really happened - that an ATC clearance had been given, but for some reason the captain was convinced that this was also a takeoff clearance.

[edit] The PanAm pilot

In the AP newswire in 1977, Victor Grubbs, the pilot of the Pan Am jet at Tenerife, expected to return to flying. Does anyone know if he was able to? In 1981, he would have been 61, and thus a year past retirement age. I wonder if his eyesight was too damaged for him to have been able to fly again after the accident.

"Airplane manufacturers began installing equipment that helped planes see through fog." Sound fascinating! Can someone elaborate what equipment we are talking about?

Infrared technology. Bayerischermann 02:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pan Am flight, take-off date?

The article says Pan Am flight 1736 took off On March 27 from LA. If the accident took place at around 5pm Spanish time on March 27, can that be true? 5pm Tenerife time is 4pm GMT. LA is GMT -8, so that means the crash occurred at 8am LA time on March 27. There is no way the plane could have reached Tenerife, and landed and refuelled, in this time. This page [1] says flight 1736 took off at 1.29am GMT, or 5.29pm LA time on March 26. This page [2] agrees, saying the flight departed LAX "late the previous afternoon]. Therefore I am changing this.

[edit] the aeroplanes

its probably just me but i wondered if anyone knew if both of the aeroplanes were boeing 747's, i cant seem to find out whether they are, it doesn't seem to be very clear, thanks anyway, ≈≈≈≈louise

Hi Louise,

Both planes were 747 Jumbo Jets. KLM flight 4805 was named Rhine River and PanAm flight 1736 went by the name of Clipper Victor.

Deborah

[edit] Fog equipment?

Airplane manufacturers began installing equipment that helped planes operate in fog.

The article should be specific: What equipment exactly? Tempshill 22:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I do not know so i delete it. {{Marminnetje 13:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)}}

The talk page isn't that long. If you go up a few you'll see someone has clarified it's infrared tech. It would be helpful if you could read the talk page perhaps? I agree, it should be included in the article but since it's in the talk page, no reason someone couldn't add it rather then asking again or deleting it... Nil Einne 18:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The article also doesn't even mention the fog to begin with (a very significant factor in the accident, I recall), yet it's depicted in the image.Daniel Case 04:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The article mentiones low clouds, which is actually fog.. for what I have read these low clouds, coming from the sea, can appear in no time at all on the airport. {{Marminnetje 20:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)}} EDIT: 'During taxiing, low clouds had appeared, limiting the visual range to 1000 feet (approx. 300 meters).' I think the visual range is the most important factor here. {Marminnetje 20:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] Standard/non-standard phrases

The causes of the incident claim one of them was the use of non-standard phrases. Later it is said standard phrases were developed and enforced as a result of this incident. If there was no such thing as standard phrases before this incident, this need to be clarified... Nil Einne 18:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

afaik, there were indeed standard phrases before the accident; in this case they were not strictly followed.. [quote: it is said standard phrases were developed and enforced as a result of this incident] I can't find that passage that in the article.{Marminnetje 03:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] Broken Link

http://www.benjamins.com/jbp/series/LPLP/27-3/art/0002a.pdf results in a 404 error - does anyone know where the transcript might be found online? Bridesmill 16:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sensational additions

I've noticed that here are some contributors to the article, who seem to have the sole purpose of adding sensational content and/or links. I'd like to ask all Wiki editors to watch the page carefully, and remove the spam as needed, without hesitation. Thank you. (anynomous editor) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marminnetje (talk • contribs) 18:48, 24 April 2006.

Why sign anonymous when you're logged in? i added Template:Unsigned to your message. --80.63.213.182 14:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

because I Choose to. See it? Choise. We live (still) in a free world, dude Marminnetje 16:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CVR recordings

Hello. On 1001crash.com's Tenerife crash page 5 and page 6, it is stated that the pilots said respectively "the son of a bitch is coming" and "oh shit". Is that correct? On this page it is not written. --80.63.213.182 14:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I know the first expletive is true. Notice that in most CVR's expletive remarks are shown with [expletive], see expletive. Rightly so i.m.o. Marninnetje.

[edit] KLM Survivors

Is it true that all passengers of the KLM died? I just watched that documentary, Crash of the Century and it said that one of the passengers was left behind in the terminal. If this is true, then it means that there was one survivor. 203.215.116.181 00:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

A person not aboard the plane when it crashed is generally not considered as a survivor. Asa01 09:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] discovery doc

To me, not significant to the article. There are lots of documentaries made about the disaster. 'crash of the century' says it all. :D Marminnetje 19:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems signifigant to me. It is not a random one-off documentary, but part of a major series. It was originally in the general disaster series Seconds From Disaster but is now a part of Air Crash Investigation - Blood red sandman 00:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

This article failed the GA noms due to lack of references. Might I also suggest using footnotes to cite your sources as well as transwiking the "Final radio transmissions" sections to Wikisource? If you have any questions feel free to contact me. Tarret 20:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Essentially all weve got is the CVR and the Accident reports. Finding Trusty, accurate references for the article will be most difficult. There are not a lot books written on this. And as time goes by finding trusty sources will be even more difficult. But, anyone who is dedicated to make footnotes, etc. , please proceed.

I'm pretty convinced the article is 70-80%correct. How can we protect the article from adding worthless content if no one is watching it?Marminnetje 16:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Airport location

In my opinion it is erroneous to state that Reina Sofia Airport aka Tenerife Sur was built because of the supposedly poor location of Los Rodeos aka Tenerife Norte. This may have been one of the factors, but surely just as important or more important was that when Los Rodeos was built only the northern part of the island where it is located was heavily populated. The South is infertile dry scrub and desert where the tourist resorts have only sprung up in recent decades. The Santa Cruz de Tenerife - La Laguna urban area next to Los Rodeos is still by far the largest conurbation on the island and when I saw it last weel Los Rodeos was still busy. Booshank 18:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Here are some points to consider!!!!!

1./ Why does the captain of the KLM flight refuel (55 tons) just prior to leaving after waiting for 4 hours on the tarmac? 2./ Why did the same captain clearly decide to take off without the towers permission? 3./ If the KLM jet never took on 55 tons of fuel would this disaster just be another near miss?

And what if there was no bomb threat? Things would go like planned. There was , most likely , a great stress on the KLM crew. Speculation is that the refuelling was done to save time. If nothing happened, it would be all fine and no one would mention it. It's no factor. So much factors that were against them. Duty time, weather, deviation, small airport, maybe some personal factors also. In this case this went just wrong. People generally like to blame just one side. Or a few persons. it's just not possible. Take a look at the other side: If the Pan Am crew had paid more attention as to what exit they took, and not joking in the cockpit, nothing would have happened. Marminnetje 14:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The bomb threat is part of the reason why the planes were there in the first place but it in no way accounts for what happened on that runway. If KLM had refuelled earlier in the day it would have clearly beaten the fog that was rolling down the valley toward the airport (30 mins to refuel) which greatly reduced the visability for all. Yes the KLM flight was due back in europe to avoid a change of crew and putting up all the passengers in a hotel for the night. The capatin of KLM was worried that if they waited too long they would exceed duty time under a newly introduced KLM company policy. As far as the comment based on the Pan Am crew joikng around is nonsense. Pan Am as a company were responsible for paving the way for many of the crucial safety procedures and technologys that revolutionised the avaition industry. They invented the rest followed. At the end of the day you dont merge into traffic on a freeway in thick fog with your foot flat to the floor or do you?

[edit] Recent additions

' After the explosion of the terrorist bomb, the threat was contained and the authorities reopened the airport. ' this is confusing. Maybe could be changed to ' After the detonation of the terrorist bomb by the authorities, the threat was contained and the airport reopened. '(However, no sources provided). Secondly the addition of the Pan Am plane was a senior citizen charter - i remember this is correct. Is there are source for this. Marminnetje 18:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

As I know there was at least 1 survivor from KLM flight ( beacuase he/she don't borded on )

See the "KLM survivors" section for why this isn't a mistake. Clipper471 22:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KLM fuel edit

I can fully understand the fact that KLM fuelled more than needed at the airport.

It seems a fully logical, and sane, decision by the captain. I think the captain was not paranormal as to any accident, he was not aiming to cause any harm. He was doing the best he could for his company and his passengers.

Therefore -- I propose to delete it from the speculation section as to this date.(see my tag) Reason: it has nothing to do with the accident. If you obnject please state it here, otherwise it will be deleted , soon, and Permanent Marminnetje 19:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality?

This article seems to point that it was the fault of the KLM plane. Where it says- KLM plane overfueled, KLM plane tried to take off w/o clearence from ATC, KLM plane used non-standard communications terms.

Is this neutral? Smith230 16:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality apart, this disaster is the child of gross miscalculations and errors of judgment by all the three concered (the Rodeos tower, Captain Grubbs and Captain van Zanten). It would be unfair to attribute the responsibility singularly to one party.Anil 01:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In a way, there is much more study of the behaviour of the KLM captain than the behaviour of the Pan Am crew and/or the tower. Him being preoccupied by: Company regulations. Weather. He overfueled. He spent too much time on the simulator. He didn't listen to his co-pilot. He was an authority figure. I think the article is definately biased. I'd even suggest placing a tag on it. Maybe the speculations section is not a smart idea anymore. Heck, I created it! Marminnetje 20:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The article is written correctly. It was the KLM captain that took off believing the Pan Am jet was somewhere else. The disaster is ultimately his fault. If he didn't take off the disaster would have been avoided. Fighting for Justice 20:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

As it was the KLM plane was the one to move on the runway, it is pretty easy to point the finger at Captain van Zanten. Poor guy! Anil 02:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

As it was the KLM plane was the one to move on the runway, it is pretty easy to point the finger at Captain van Zanten. Poor guy1 Anil 02:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't consider it pointing fingers at him, but you gotta call things for what they are. He made the mistake in assuming the Pan Am jet was not on the runway. He didn't listen to his co-pilot. He took off without permission and it caused the accident. Fighting for Justice 03:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

How do we react to the episode of Pan Am missing the third exist? To their lewd conversation in the cockpit? To the Spaniards in the tower who went ahead with opeating live planes on the runway amid a disasterous fog 61.1.250.72 07:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Simple there was dense fog and the Captain of the Pan Am jet missed it. It's a forgivable mistake. It didn't kill anyone. All the more reason to be cautious if you ask me. Captain Van Zanten proceeded to take off when he didn't have permission. He made the fatal mistake. You can't pussy foot around it, because of a lewd conversation. That's not what killed a bunch of people. Fighting for Justice 07:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The speculations section is definately not neutral: it only takes in account the faults of the KLM crew and not the others.Marminnetje 10:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of questions of neutrality, the speculations section needs to be sourced, like any other - more so because it's controversial - otherwise it may as well be considered original research. I'll add some citations where I can find them, others might like to do the same. Cheers, Ian Rose 11:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Roger. I answer to your contentions in the affirmative, Ian. A good advice for anyone who is interested in actually digging out what really has happened on that fatal day Anil 18:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of you need to read this then Undue Weight. Wikipedia is suppose to be neutral, but it doesn't mean you have to include opposing viewpoints on a equal level to the prevailing viewpoint. Majority of the investigators blamed it on the KLM crew. Fighting for Justice 03:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Quite correct. If the article mentioned nothing but the KLM crew's errors, then there would be a problem with its neutrality. That's not the case - see Probable Cause. As for the speculations, they're mostly cited now, reflecting the thoughts of a number of commentators. Cheers, Ian Rose 04:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. The only thing that should be stressed is that there was a mistake from everyone concerend (may be in varying degrees, but a mistake in aviation environment, however small and minute it may seem, is so unforgiving, you should remember!). Not just only with Capt van Zanten.Anil 13:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

According to this article [3] there are witnesses who claim that there was a soccer game on in the tower. They had not come forward because of fear of the authorities, just a few years after the death of Franco.

[edit] KLM Advert with Captain Van Zanten's picture

Found the picture here [4]. I think it might add to the article. What do you guys think? The heading is quite freaky indeed... "KLM. From the people who made punctuality possible." Aratoda 05:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the article has now too much pics. Too much pictures don't add but distract from the text. The crew picture that was added doesn't add anything at all but takes up space. The KLM ad might be ok in it's current small window. However, these new pics have no valid tags so they might be deleted amnyway. Marminnetje 16:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree the crew pic is too much and suggest we delete it. We may as well have a pic of the Pan-Am crew as well if we keep it and that'd be way over the top. However I think the KLM ad is useful (if a tad dark) and have just done a bit of rearranging in that section to place it better. Re. tags, I'd say the ad would be a safer bet to retain than the crew pic anyway. Cheers, Ian Rose 21:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CVR transcript

There are some things in the CVR transcript that I have a problem with. For example, I understand the need to keep it consistent with the original accident reports, but the sentence "Is he not clear that Pan American?" is incorrect in terms of punctuation (it should be "Is he not clear, that Pan American?", especially when the original Dutch is written with a comma). Should this be corrected? Tony Myers 20:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

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