Talk:The Mikado

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Contents 1 Original comment 2 Never named characters 3 Anime version? 4 Dubious 5 Chichibu Discussion 6 Chinese manners? 7 Song list 8 Pish-Tush 9 Reference Query 10 Vocal ranges in roles 11 The 1939 Motion Picture Version 12 External Links 13 Image 14 Spam filter 15 comic opera vs. operetta 16 Synopsis

[edit] Original comment

FYI, Gilbert and Sullivan themselves referred to their works as "comic operas" or "operas," never as "operettas." I have therefore restored that phrase. Marc Shepherd 04:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Never named characters

Is it worth adding a mention that Peep-Bo and Pish-Tush's names are never spoken or sung? (This is what actually brought me to this article today--I was struggling to remember Peep-Bo's name!) Not R 13:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anime version?

I have often toyed with the notion of an anime version of the Mikado.Who else feels this way? R.G. 04:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)R.G.

That is like the funniest shit I have ever heard.. :P - UnlimitedAccess 09:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I would watch that. The Wednesday Island 13:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I've always thought it would be a great addition to the Project A-ko series. Not R 13:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

The old story that Gilbert was inspired by a falling sword has long since been proved false. (I just don't have time at the moment to put in a correction.) I don't know any source for the claim that the Japanese were ambivalent about the opera, or that the town of Chichibu performs the opera frequently. Marc Shepherd 17:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Gilbert probably made up the falling-sword story, but the article doesn't claim Gilbert's story was true, just that he said it was, and that it was dramatized in Topsy-Turvy (both verifiably true statements). Also, Gilbert certainly visited Knightsbridge; he even refers to the ongoing exhibition in one line of The Mikado. So I've removed that {{disputed}} tag, but as I've never heard of Chichibu outside this article, I can't comment on the other one. --Quuxplusone 03:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

In fact, Gilbert never even said that the sword fell, only that the story was inspired by a sword. Marc Shepherd 04:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I've now had time to look up the reference debunking the falling sword story, and updated the article accordingly. Marc Shepherd 23:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it was Bulldog in the fraiser episode (down the bottom of the page under trivia) that instigated the prank in that show but instead 2 recently hired shock jocks.

I think you are right, it was recently aired on repeat in the UK and it was two shock jocks who start laughing at the end. If I get time today I'll google for the episode guide and look at the cast list and summary to see if I can confirm it.

[edit] Chichibu Discussion

I've moved this to the "Controversy" section, where it more logically belongs. I could find no evidence that the town of Chichibu "regularly" performs the opera, only that they have performed it. I also found no reference connecting Chichibu to anything that occurs in the 1938 film, and therefore removed that from the discussion. Marc Shepherd 16:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Do we want to say anything about the professional Chichubu Mikado that was presented in Buxton? --Ssilvers 00:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese manners?

I have never read this. Where did you get it? --Ssilvers 15:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I am Japanese, and I'm afraid the play does confuse Japanese styles with Chinese ways. For example, some female dancers are wearing ancient Chinese costumes. And another thing to point out is that Nanki-Poo holds the shamisen like the guitar and plays it with his bare hand.Tmesipteris 12:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It appears that you are confusing some particular production with the show itself. I am not aware of anything in the libretto suggests confusion of Asian cultures. Gilbert and Sullivan based the Japanese stylings in the play on what they saw at the Knightsbridge exhibit of 1884. Their perception of Japananese styles was, doubtless imprecise, and of course, the play is not about Japan at all, but about Britain, disguised in Japanese clothing, but I do not believe that there is any intentional reference to China or Chinese styles in the libretto or stage directions. --Ssilvers 19:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I see. I watched the play in DVD, which was the version performed in Stratford, Canada. And whether it is intentional or not, it can be the case that some things the people there believe are Japanese do not sound Japanese to us. But yes, as you say, I think it depends on which production it is. Tmesipteris 13:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The Stratford productions are notorious for varying from the intentions of G&S. If you read the libretto and listen to a D'Oyly Carte recording, I think you will see that any suggestion of Chinese customs was entirely the creation of the Stratford directors. --Ssilvers 15:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. Tmesipteris 13:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

That said, the whole burying the wife alive with her husband mention always gave me the vague feeling that it was referencing something other than Japan. Dido and Aeneas? Something Indian, Arabic, or Egyptian involving emprorers taking their slaves and wives with them? But I've never worked it into a definate thought. Adam Cuerden 20:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Song list

Revised it. Alter as you wish. Adam Cuerden 15:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pish-Tush

In the original production, Frederick Bovill, who played Pish-Tush, proved unable satisfactorily to sing the low notes in the Act Two quartet, "Brightly dawns our wedding day". Pish-Tush's line ends on a bottom F, and the piece lies lower than the rest of the role. An extra character, Go-To, was introduced for this scene. The D'Oyly Carte Opera Company continued this practice. The role of Go-To is sometimes removed, and Pish-Tush reinstated into the quartet, when played by someone with a sufficient range.

...This is pretty awkward indeed. Perhaps it's time to lose this footnote and start a new section so that we can tease out all the thoughts being lumped together in that one overworked footnote? Adam Cuerden 23:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's so bad. I think we have other things that are higher priority. Why don't you leave this alone for a week and come back to it with a fresh mind. --Ssilvers 00:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not mine. Just things like the second sentence interrupting the natural flow between the first and third seems awkward to me, and the "The D'Oyly Carte Company continued the practice" seems awkward. Of course, you may have notived that I prefer sentences with several clauses, to allow conjugations and prepositions to draw out the connections between the thoughts, more than most... Adam Cuerden 07:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I took a crack at fixing it. I also removed the name of the original Pish, since it will be listed in Marc's chart of DOC performers. However, it is a long footnote, so feel free to move it to text somewhere, if there is an appropriate section. --Ssilvers 13:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the solution is to add a "Versions" section (like Ruddigore) where the situation can be explained more expansively. Pish-Tush's role was curtailed in at least three places — he was eliminated from the Madrigal, he was eliminated from "So please you sir," and he lost the line "Why, who are you who ask this question?" I think it's a fair inference that Mr. Bovill was not considered up-to-snuff for a good deal of his part, and it's worth noting that he was not accommodated in the cast of the next opera.

There are other things to mention, like the re-ordering of "The sun whose rays" and the List song, the shortening of "Were you not to Ko-Ko plighted," and so forth. But I don't think it's urgent, and I'd rather work on it when I'm at home and have my references in front of me. I'd probably get it 90% right from memory, but I'd rather work from sources and make it 99%. Marc Shepherd 13:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, adding a Versions section seems like a good idea, and we probably need it in other shows too, even if it may be brief. But, the evidence is that Bovill was good in the role. It appears that he could not handle the lower parts of the role that were assigned to others, but he seems to have handled the higer parts of the role well. According to "The Entr'acte", Saturday, 28 March 1885, Bovill "proves himself to be possessed of a very useful voice, and so also does another gentleman, who sings the basso music in the madrigal." See Review. Bovill played the role throughout its run, and Carte engaged him again in 1891 for the Royal English Opera House to play the Squire in the first production of Ivanhoe and later as the Chancellor in La Basoche. He was also in the cast of the 1898 Zonophoney Thespis. --Ssilvers 21:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference Query

The reference for the Mikado being one of the most frequently performed pieces of theatre of all time seems somewhat suspect to me. It trots out the same old "Gilbert snubbed for knighthood", etc fallacies. I believe the information about the number of performances, but surely we can find a more generally accurate cite. Adam Cuerden 12:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sam has now done so. Marc Shepherd 13:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vocal ranges in roles

Pooh bah has lots of high singing. In See How the Fates, he sings the tenor line. I don't see how we can call Pooh Bah a bass-baritone and Hildebrand, which is very low, a baritone. --Ssilvers 13:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In general, people have been putting in vocal ranges based on their personal impressions. I suggest we take a time-out, review what has been done for the thirteen extant G&S operas, and agree on a standard which we'll memorialize at WP:G&S. Then we won't have to deal with the problem every time someone goes in and changes the characters' vocal ranges, which seems to be happening all the time.

I have no problem with saying that Pooh-Bah is a baritone, rather than bass-baritone. I wouldn't say, however, that he has the tenor line in "See how the fates." There is no tenor in that number. He has the higher of the baritone lines. Marc Shepherd 13:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how we're really going to arrive at any satisfactory "standard". It's very subjective and depends not only on the range of the role but the tessitura and general "weight" of the role. There are times, particularly in the first act, where Pooh appears to be a bass-baritone, and times, mostly in the act II, where he is definitely not a bass-baritone. So, I think it is safer to call him a baritone. As I said before, Hildebrand sits very low for a baritone, despite the one high "F" that he sings in "That's the long and the short of it", and I really think the better description for him is bass-baritone. Other than that, I don't think there have been many changes in the vocal range, and these two have been discussed mostly between the two of us. --Ssilvers 13:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Addendum. I saw that you reverted Luiz to "baritone", an assessment with which I agree. This may have prompted you to say that "people have been putting in vocal ranges....", but again, I really think that it is not a big problem -- there are a very few major roles that people like to argue about, and unless you are suggesting putting a list of roles that we ought to have a consensus on, I don't see what else there is to say about these on the project page. --Ssilvers 15:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I apologise: I came to the page and found him listed as "baritone or bass-baritone (See below)" or something like that, looked below, did a text search by his name, concluded he must have gotten mixed up with Pish-Tush, and so, thinking of "I am so proud", chose one. Obviously, I chose wrongly. Adam Cuerden 20:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No prob! Marc Shepherd 20:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In any case, you were not really wrong. Indeed, my opinion expressed above bucks the commonly-held conception that P-B is a bass-baritone. But, as I note above, I think that it's better played by a baritone who can handle the higher parts of the role as well as the lower, so a versatile voice is called for with, preferably, a fairly dark sound. So, it's a close call. --Ssilvers 20:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if any milage could be made out of swapping Pooh-Bah and Pish-Tush's lines around for amateur use? The plot rarely hinges on which of the two is there at any one time.

Obviously, I don't support this as a general practice! But it might solve casting difficulties here and there Adam Cuerden 23:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

There are a few brief sections where Pooh-Bah has the highest baritone lines and Ko-Ko the lowest. It's common practice to swap these. Not R 13:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The 1939 Motion Picture Version

I'm surprised there's no real mention of the movie adaptation in full color, back when color films were still in the clear minority. I think it may have even been the first color movie by Universal. Any film buffs willing to tackle this one? --71.207.226.188 02:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I added a heading for Film versions and got the ball rolling. If you follow the links, there is a lot of info that could be extracted. Happy editing! --Ssilvers 03:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I've made some updates to that section. Note that the 1939 film was not a D'Oyly Carte undertaking. Marc Shepherd 16:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Isn't that last one a bit obscure? Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, here's a whole list of links I have cut:

• Allan Sherman did a parody of the "Tit-willow" song ("On a tree by a river"), in which the bird in question talks and sings with a stereotypical Jewish accent. Sherman is so impressed by the bird's singing that he takes him down from his branch, and home "to mein split-level ranch". His wife misinterprets the gift and fricassees the bird, whose last words are, "Oy! Willow! Tit-willow! Willow!"

• Sherman also did a variant on "I've Got a Little List", presenting reasons why one might want to seek psychiatric help, and titled "You Need an Analyst".[1]

• Eureeka's Castle, a children's television show, did a parody of "I've Got a Little List" in a Christmas special, called "Just Put it on the List," wherein the twins, Bogg and Quagmire, describe what they'd like for Christmas.

• Other well-known actors who have played the role of Ko-Ko are Eric Idle and Bill Oddie, with both appearing in the same English National Opera production of "The Mikado" (Bill Oddie took over the role of Ko-Ko after Eric Idle left the production). Dudley Moore played the role when the production toured the United States.

• The climax of the 1978 film Foul Play takes place during a performance of The Mikado. In this film, Dudley Moore appears as the orchestra conductor of the opera.

• There are amateur performances of "Three Little Maids from School" in British comedy television series such as Keep it in the Family and Fresh Fields.

• In the 1981 film Chariots of Fire, Harold Abrahams first sees his future wife as one of the "Three Little Maids from School".

• Rian Johnson's 2005 film Brick features a scene where Laura (Nora Zehetner), the femme fatale, performs a section from "The Sun Whose Rays" while playing the piano at a party. Originally, she performed the entire piece, but the second half was edited for time. The entire performance is contained on track 3 of the soundtrack.

• In the CSI episode "Suckers", a case is solved thanks to Grissom's remembering the song "Three little maids from school are we", and there are many references to The Mikado.

• In Frasier episode "Leapin' Lizards", workplace prankster Bulldog impersonates the voice of an esteemed friend of Niles Crane in a phone call to Frasier. After Frasier boasts that many have asked to see his "Yum-Yum", he is coaxed into going into his best falsetto voice to perform 'Three Little Maids' from The Mikado live over the air.

• In the Angel episode "Hole in the World", Charles Gunn sings "Three Little Maids from School are We," and when he is caught by Wesley, tries to cover by rapping, badly.

• The Chipmunks perform "Three Little Maids" in the episode "Maids in Japan" on Alvin and the Chipmunks. Alvin signs up himself and his brothers in a kabuki theater to gain publicity in Japan, but it goes terribly awry after they are to perform female roles (onnagata). After the show, Dave sees them in full costume and make-up and thinks they are some local girls.

• A Muppet Show episode featured Sam the Eagle singing "Willow, Tit-Willow".

I'm worried some of these may be repetative. I mean, there's an awful lot of straight-forward singing of Three little maids. Does this list need curtailed? Certainly, some of it should probably be in the article, but all of it? Don't know. Adam Cuerden ^talk 13:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Adam, I don't think you should cut these out of the article. To the extent that they are repetitive, you could organize them around the songs they refer to, but I think you should put this section back in asap. Although you box idea looks nice, there is too much info, and it will be too long. So, sorry, I'd essentially go back to how it was, with just better organization of the references. Please don't leave it like this. -- Ssilvers 14:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Fixed, but better organised (Left a hidden note detailing orginisation). Deleted the Muppet Show one (only because of lack of detail.) Adam Cuerden ^talk 14:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I tried to give it some clearer organizing principles. Put Muppet show back in with a cite tag, but what I really want is DATES for each reference.... Is there a "date needed" tag?

[edit] Image

An editor put in an image from an amateur production of Mikado. The G&S Project WP:G&S has not been referring to amateur productions in the G&S-related articles, since there are plenty of notable historical and professional productions. There are many public-domain images from early productions of Mikado that would be acceptable, or a more recent photo from, say, English National Opera's production or a Carl Rosa or NYGASP production would be OK if you can use it under "Fair Use". -- Ssilvers 02:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spam filter

I tried to edit this page for some minor details, but when I tried to save the update I got blocked by a SPAM filter. What gives?

• me too! Tim riley 20:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] comic opera vs. operetta

The G&S Project (WP:G&S) uses the term "comic opera" instead of "operetta" to describe the G&S operas. Gilbert and Sullivan (and the other English authors and composers of the period) *always* referred to their works as comic operas, never as operettas, so as to distinguish them from Offenbach and other continental operettas. This is very consistent throughout all the articles in the project. Thanks. -- Ssilvers 15:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis

Great changes. I think you have improved the synopsis a good deal. A couple minor points: i) It is not stated that the "ruin" would affect only the officials. I think Gilbert means that *everyone* would be ruined, but I made the statement neutral; ii) Ko-Ko makes no attempt to change Nanki's mind. He just asks him if his mind could be changed by anything, but Nanki is "adamant"; iii) When the Mikado says "he goes by the name of Nanki Poo", only Ko-Ko responds at first. -- Ssilvers 18:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think whether the city was a village or not would affect the average person, but rather the people of status. Ko-Ko does ask him three questions to test his resolve, but obviously he is not trying to talk Nanki-Poo out of it. Pitti-Sing DEFINITELY knows Nanki-Poo's name, she uses it when the girls are chattering at Ko-Ko. But small points. The synopsis is much better than it used to be.--Wehwalt 20:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your change, but I just made it even clearer, OK? -- Ssilvers 20:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Nanki-Poo is not his real name. The Mikado is stating the alias. Nanki-Poo would be ill advised to keep his real name, granted that he is "in hiding".--Wehwalt 23:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)