Talk:Theodore Beza
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[edit] quote
Here is a telling quote attributed to Theodore Beza: It belongs to the church of God to receive blows rather than to inflict them -- but, she is an anvil that has worn out many hammers. --Theodore of Beza 1561 to King Charles IX of France
[edit] Citation
I contend that this sentence:
- For hundreds of years afterwards Catholic opponents would hold this work against Beza in particular and against Calvinists in general as a defense of sodomy and proof of moral failing, conferring upon it an importance otherwise unwarranted.
needs a citation. Haiduc says that adequate reference can be found in the notes here. That page is in Italian. My Italian is so weak as to be practically non-existent at this point, but Babelfish gives an approximate idea of what the notes say. Still, it doesn't seem that any reliable source is given for that claim, and all such claims should be verifiable, preferably in English (cf. Wikipedia:Verifiability#English-language_sources and WP:RS#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English). Can anyone supply an English language, reliable source on the matter? --Flex (talk|contribs) 21:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps he himself is good enough (again, my Italian is pretty weak), but it is still much preferred to have sources in English for verifiability. Can you supply one? --Flex (talk|contribs) 13:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- A quick check of "Beza" + "sodomy" yields this: "English Writers and Beza's Latin Epigrams: The Uses and Abuses of Poetry" by Anne Lake Prescott in Studies in the Renaissance, Vol. 21, 1974 (1974), pp. 83-117, wherein we find "In his section on Beza he shows how he 'did practise the most execrable Sinne of Sodomy, and therein led the way to other Sodomiticall persons'..." (partial quote, all I could get off the web without access to the JSTOR archive). There seem to be other leads, but please excuse me if I do not run them down. Haiduc 01:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm less concerned about the claim that Beza was or was not bi/gay than about the claim that Catholic opponents held the poem against him and Calvinists for hundreds of years. --Flex (talk|contribs) 19:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Dall'Orto makes a case that there was a running battle between the Catholics and the Calvinists, and that Beza and DellaCasa were dragged into the polemic, apparently both on spurious charges (it is a long way from a poem about a kiss to actual sodomy). But having found a credible and thorough source I can bring no further corroboration. Why are you doubtful? Haiduc 21:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Dall'Orto makes the claim in passing in a footnote that is in Italian and has no sources cited. That's not "making a case." I just want a reliable source (preferably in English) for that statement. If it's commonly accepted, then it should be easy to find a source. --Flex (talk|contribs) 22:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, that seems to fit the bill. Thanks! --Flex (talk|contribs) 23:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a citation and an additional quote from the EOH, though I don't think we can link to it the PDF because of copyright issues. --Flex (talk|contribs) 00:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you. I was going to add the list of original sources in the bibliography of the article, but perhaps it is best to leave it as is. But why do you say that it would infringe copyright to link to the pdf?! That is the first I hear of it. Haiduc 01:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Re linking: I'm thinking particularly of #1 under WP:EL#Restrictions_on_linking. It may be that that scan of the EOH is indeed legit, but I question it (note the copyright info at the very bottom of this page). --Flex (talk|contribs) 15:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
