Talk:Thomas Cochrane, 10th Earl of Dundonald

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Had two edit conflicts on Thomas Cochrane -- Mintguy (T)

Fine now, but needs a bit of copy-editing. Gdr 19:14, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

yes, Gamo/Gramo blame "The Royal Naval Museum" [1]

Actually there's more errors in this source. I changed the date of the capture from 1801 to 1800 as per this source, but it looks like this is wrong . Mintguy (T)

I relied on Cochrane's letter to the Admiralty [2] which gives May 6, 1801. Gdr 19:22, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

This article states two popular fictional British sea captains (Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey) were based on Cochrane. The article on Lord Nelson states both were based on NElson.

Which is correct?Johnwhunt 15:23, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The first book of the Aubrey-Maturin series, Master and Commander is basically a fictionalised retelling of Cochrane's exploits in the Mediterranean aboard Speedy. The Hornblower novels also include exploits similar to Cochrane's. Later tales diverge from the Cochrane model and Patrick O'Brian includes incidents that come from other people's lives. Nelson does not really offer much material for novelists as his career is too well known and started too soon in history, so I am surprised that he is listed as a model. Dabbler 16:26, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As Dabbler points out, there are a lot of similarities between the fictional career of Jack Aubrey and the real-life career of Cochrane. But I don't think its correct to say that Aubrey is based on Cochrane. They're completely different personalities, they come from different social backgrounds, and Cochrane had all the political and social connections that Aubrey always seemed to lack. ¶ If you compare Master and Commander with the relevent chapters of Cochrane's autobiography, you'll see almost exactly the same events, but completely different people. In general, O'Brian borrowed material from the real-life adventures of a lot of different people. Cochrane sort of dominates, simply because he got written about a lot. ----Isaac R 00:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 External links: not autobiography 2 Capitailization 3 KB or KCB 4 Chile 5 Cochrane 6 Bombardment ships 7 Pillory

[edit] External links: not autobiography

The work on Project Gutenberg is the continuation of Cochrane's autobiography, written not by himself, but by an hired writer and Cochrane's son, the eleventh Earl of Dundonald (Cochrane was the tenth Earl).--193.175.194.60 14:13, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There was no information about his lovely wife in the article, and only one bit on his south american adventures. A pity, I'll break open the books one day soon. As for hornblower and such i believe that it can be shown that the basic character is indeed based on cochrane. In the days of the war he became quite a popular man at home, as well as being feared among the spanish and french enemies of the day. watch the film - master and commander with russel crowe and you maybe able to remember the diversionary tactic used to escape a more powerful ship at night, by afixing a light on a float. It also appears in hornblower(if my memory is right). These were the actions taken by cochrane and can be directly attributed. just one example

[edit] Capitailization

If by BE you mean British English, then you are sadly mistaken. I am a native British English speaker and writer and I call upon my extensive collection of books by such authorities of British naval history as Brian Lavery, N.A.M. Rodgers and Colin White all of the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich who are all British English writers and all use lower case for ranks when writing of the position rather than using it as a title. Dabbler 17:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Oxford Manual of Style disagrees with them, and I see no reason whatsoever why writers on naval history should be automatically considered authorities on grammar. The usage you're advocating also contradicts that found on the Royal Navy's own website. Proteus (Talk) 18:08, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And the Times (of London) style guide (among others) differs with your authorities See under A for admiral as do my British English dictionaries to hand, including the Oxford Shorter (in it Field Marshal is capitalized but admiral is not). In other words it is at best a matter of preference and not a compulsory rule. I prefer to follow dictionaries and knowledgeable and professional academics and their style who have no doubt consulted more books and documents on the Navy than the editors of the Oxford Manual of Style. I am not going to revert your changes because despite the rather infelicitous nature of your edits, it isn't worth fighting over with someone who knows everything. Dabbler 23:26, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I refer to the style guide. In this largely naval article, following naval fashion seems to be the way to go, especially as anybody coming to this article is most likely going to be interested in naval matters.

Obviously the Royal Navy isn't interested in naval matters. Proteus (Talk) 00:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia style guide states clearly that titles should be only capitalized when a name is attached. The Royal Navy may be excellent at fighting and sailing ships but it is not the arbiter of style even when it comes to the writing down of its ranks. There are a lot more people outside the Navy than in it and English usage is the province of English users. The Navy may prefer an ugly style but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with them. Since this is a matter of preferred style and not a hard and fast rule of the English language, why do you want to overrule people who have studied the subject, been regular editors in this article while you are flying in like the proverbial seagull? Your persistent reverts of perfectly acceptable non-capitalizations smack of arrogance. Leave us to edit our articles in a reasonable and acceptable style while you play around doing what you want in yours. Dabbler 01:00, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can't quite follow Proteus's logic. Wikipolicy is to use lower case in the general and upper in the specific. This isn't a matter of grammar, as he seems to think, and the opinions of naval historians are of extra relevance in an article based largely on naval history. Pete 01:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] KB or KCB

When Cochrane was first knighted, he would have been a KB, but then he had the honour removed. The Order then changed so that instead on one level, there were three; GCB, KCB and CB. Did Cochrane have his original KB restored or was he placed back in as a KCB or even GCB? Dabbler 08:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Never mind found my answer, he ended up as a GCB (Project Gutenburg, title page of the continuation to his Autobiography of a Seaman). Dabbler 08:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chile

I added some information realted to his stay inChile, is not much but i might add some more later. I also icluded the link to the Chilean Navy's Biography of Thomas Cochrane.

Francisco.

[edit] Cochrane

This morning the person using the IP Address 70.170.18.18 again vandalized the Wikipedia article on the Cochrane surname he wrote "Cochrans are desendants from the Jews and have what has now become known as "nigger blood". Cochrans have stretchy anuses and have no control of thier excretory valves". I think this guy needs to be blocked.

[edit] Bombardment ships

Added more information on Cochrane's bombardment ship plans, diagrams to follow

[edit] Pillory

Did Cochrane end up in the pillory or not? The article seems to contradict itself: "He was excussed from doing Pillory for fear that his supporters might riot." "His time in the pillory was more of a triumph than a humiliation, and was the last usage of the pillory in England." A quick search of other sites indicates that he didn't spend any time in the pillory. Also, according to http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Pillory someone served in the pillory in 1830, so I don't think Cochrane was the last usage. I'll edit accordingly. Athenastreet 02:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)