Talk:Transposing instrument

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With our technogy now, why can't we change trasposing instruments to non -transposing inst? Im not a clarinet player so i wonder how they play a clarinet.. but I have a question..As for example Clarinet in A, since we know that when i play Eb note i will hear C, then why not we just change the usual Eb fingering as to C fingering. THen we have less trouble in transpoing them.

Please enlight me.. thanks.

I imagine we don't change a) for historical reasons, because classical musicians want to keep playing in the same way and b) because there's no need. transposing instruments don't do so because of a lack of technology, but because it is convenient to keep the same fingering for the same note. A clarinet player sees the note "E" and fingers "E" no matter what. if you mean we should redesign the clarinet with completely different holes, then it would become a different instrument, and would have to be learned agin -- Tarquin 16:41 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

This question could be tackled a number of different ways.

If you mean "why aren't all parts simply written in concert pitch, and let the players learn the "real" pitches associated with a given note?", Tarquin's answer is correct when you consider the same players switch between, for example, Eb alto and Bb tenor saxes. It would greatly steepen the learning curve.

If you mean "why don't all instruments standardize on 'C as a fundamental pitch?'", there are at least two problems I can think of:

- if you want to have instruments which are roughly in the soprano, alto, tenor, and bass ranges, you're going to have to construct them so that their ranges center on notes which are about a 4th or 5th apart. Flute is in "C" - Alto Flute is in "G". Alto sax Eb, tenor sax Bb, and so on.

Granted, string players have the same situation with, for example, violins, violas, cellos and basses, and they don't transpose, but string players don't double, because they play all the time anyway. So they accept the fact that if you play violin, learning to play viola would involve a whole lot more "re-learning." Also, keep in mind that they sort of do a similar thing by using more different clefs - alto and tenor clefs in addition to the more familiar treble and bass. This is to minimize the number of ledger lines (lines to show notes above or below the clef) they have to read.

- Keep in mind that some of these transposed instruments came about not to allow extension of range, but to keep the player in more comfortable key signatures. This historically developed when wind instruments were less capable of playing all the sharps and flats, but it's still somewhat true. The best example I can think of is the Bb and A clarinets. They're only a half-step apart. Clarinetists mix them up sometimes when switching, with very bad results (I know, I'm a clarinetist!). But a Bb clarinet allows me to play in C when the concert key is Bb, in F when the concert key is Eb, and so on. I always read 2 less flats in the key signature than concert pitch. The A clarinet provides the same service in the sharp keys - I always read 3 less sharps than the concert key.

Perhaps another related question would be "why are there so many different transpositions for horns?" Why IS the alto flute in G, the english horn in F, clarinets in Ab (rare), C, Bb, A, Eb; saxes in Bb and Eb, the trumpet in Bb, E, A and so on? If they can't all be in C, why can't they all be in G or Bb or something?

Again, it's partly to allow key signatures to stay convenient, and again the A clarinet is a good example. It's worth noting that horns used mainly for orchestra work rarely transpose in Bb and Eb, and horns used mainly in bands rarely transpose in A, because orchestras play more easily in sharp keys than bands do. But it is also the result of history. These instruments were made in whatever key seemed good at the time, repertoire was built up around them, and now it's hard to change. However, lest you think musicians, composers, and arrangers are just hidebound by tradition, it is true that some of the transposing instruments have fallen by the wayside. Clarinets used to be made in lots of different pitches, but the standard soprano pair became the Bb and A and then practically all of the lower clarinets (alto, bass, contra, etc) became either Bb or Eb. Saxophones are all Bb or Eb, practically speaking.

- Gary622

Contents 1 Challenge to recorders 2 Mystery paragraph 3 Tablature is Western music notation 4 Editing needed for clarity 5 Db piccolo, no bass clarinet in A 6 First section rewrite 7 major re-org 8 Great Highland Bagpipe questions 9 bagpipe is a transposing instrument 10 See also 11 Saxes in C and F

[edit] Challenge to recorders

This statement:

the recorder family. While recorders are made in a variety of sizes (and hence pitches), the recorder player is expected to read music at true pitch and adjust fingering accordingly.

isn't true in my experience -- I've seen alto recorder parts in F (although it's true that recorder players are usually able transposers, and perhaps the parts I've seen were prepared by clever publishers for beginners).

Anyway, is it necessary to list instruments which aren't transposing? Why would anyone "expect" them to be? --Wahoofive 06:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm wrong. They aren't transposing instruments, and my memory must be going. Still, I'm going to rewrite that section. --Wahoofive 02:21, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I find this remark questionable: "The piccolo and the soprano recorder, which are extremely high-pitched, are written an octave lower than they sound so that their music can be written easily on the treble staff." The lowest note on the soprano recorder IS commonly said to be an octave above concert middle C, and this makes sense acoustically, considering that the soprano recorder is about half the size of a flute, but there is something odd about the timbre of the recorder that makes it seem (to many ears) to sound an octave lower than this, in other words, to make the lowest soprano recorder note seem to sound a concert middle C. The best thing I think would be simply to avoid using the recorder as an example of octave transposition.

Re: "Many instruments whose ranges are extremely high or low transpose at the octave in order to make their written music easier to read." Au contraire: The guitar and the tenor voice, for example, are both octave transposing instruments, and I don't think you can reasonably maintain that their ranges are extreme. It's just that their ranges don't fit conveniently on either the concert bass clef or the concert treble clef. They both could fit well on the tenor clef, and why they don't use the tenor clef I can't say. It might be simply that use of the tenor clef and the alto clef has been waning for some time. In any case, I'm removing this "whose ranges are extremely high or low" business. --Scotch

[edit] Mystery paragraph

The following paragraph (formerly with the heading "Notes") is meaningless to me:

The kind of transposition practiced by a given transposing instrument is always directly related to its fundamental pitch: an instrument in Eb always transposes to Eb (i.e. its own C will sound a concert pitch of Eb), never to Bb, D, G or any other note than Eb (in particular it follows that instruments whose fundamental pitch is C are never transposing); so to some extent being a transposing instrument (and what transposition such an instrument actually uses) has something to do with the physical properties of the instrument: at least the convention, if one wishes to call it that, is not entirely arbitrary; on the other hand it is true that there are wind instruments whose fundamental tone is a note other than C but that are not transposing instruments — see e.g. the recorder family.

It needs to be clarified or deleted.

--Wahoofive 06:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it starts with a bit of a false assumption. Brass instruments have a "fundamental pitch" which is based on what notes are easiest to get out of the horn, but woodwinds don't really work this way. There is an "open note" that sounds when no keys are pressed, but it has nothing to do with the range of the horn. Bb clarinets sound a concert "F" when no keys are pressed, for example. - Gary622

This paragraph only really applies to trumpets and horns, whose fundamentals do correspond to their transpositions. However, trombones and tubas have fundamentals of Bb and Eb but almost always read C music. This raises an interesting question- is the tromobne a C instrument or a Bb one?-Hrothgar137

Trombone (and tuba) is a nontransposing B♭ instrument. In fact, largely because of this confusion here and on the trombone article, I'm actually going to bother to write an article for nontransposing instruments, which should prove to be rather short, all things considered, but may clear up this mess once and for all. --Jemiller226 19:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tablature is Western music notation

I removed references to "western music notation" in the third paragraph because tablature is fairly common in "western music notation" and it specifies how to produce sound. Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 17:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Rather than remove it altogether, you might better have qualified "Western music notation" with either "standard" or "traditional". --Scotch

[edit] Editing needed for clarity

I am a band director as well as a saxophone and clarinet player. Therefore, I am certainly well versed in the concept of transposition. The way this article is written is extremely confusing. The goal should not be to boost ego in throwing around as much technical jargon as possible, but to appeal to anyone from Sally the seventh grade clarinet player to Johnny the college senior. This has to be understood by anyone looking for more information on the subject relatively easily.--Jfulkerson 02:49, 21 September 2005 (UTC)Jfulkerson

All true. Feel free to lend a hand and edit the article yourself, if you wish. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to simplify it somewhat; feedback on whether or not it's helped anything would be appreciated. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 20:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Good work on the intro. The section "Other transpositions" needs work, too. I'll do it if no one beats me to it. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

AMEN! I'm one of those despised people who learns through actually placing my hands on the instrument and using my ears. I've made serious attempts at learning music notation several times, each time meeting with bitter frustration and eventually cursing the whole convoluted system as unnecessarily cryptic, so please just call me Sally the Seventh Grader. Understanding the historical context helps me see the justification for such a horrible mess, but it doesn't make it any easier to learn. It's like having to become a PhD. in linguistics when I just want to learn a second language.
MY QUESTION: Can the "List of instruments by transposition" section not be simplified? Is it realy necessary to talk of "minor seconds" and "perfect fourths" (forcing us novices to look up the corresponding articles on those terms, which are even more confounding and discouraging!), rather than "B-flat trumpet sounds a whole step lower than written (C sounds B-flat)?" Better yet, is there a reason why the instruments cannot simply be listed with their corresponding notes as they sound when concert "C" is read? For example:
Trumpet: Bb
English Horn: F
et cetera, et cetera, and leave the jargon to the professionals, who don't need to research this kind of thing on Wikipedia. I know I'm not alone. Music is an innate human quality (my assertion), and there are legions of musically inclined humans who are effectively stunted and excluded by this complex and archaic writing system which requires a very different set of skills from those associated with musical growth.

[edit] Db piccolo, no bass clarinet in A

I am a saxophonist/clarinetis/flutist/player/teacher just learning about Wikipedia; I hope this is the correct place to post this info. 1. There are some (not many) piccolos pitched in Db, I believe for band (as in Sousa) music. 2. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a bass clarinet in A, as is listed at the end of the article - they're all in Bb, transposing the same as tenor sax (down a ninth). 3. I have explained the world of transposing instruments to lots of students and I think it mainly comes down to: a. families of instruments that need to read the same way, b. instruments that don't sound as good in C as they do in Bb or Eb (esp. saxes, clarinets), and c. 'historical accident'. Note : trombones are an exception to a. and b. - they read in concert pitch (so alto trombonists do have to learn an entirely different way of reading), yet their "home" note (the note/overtone series based on first position with the slide all the way in) is a Bb. i.e., they're pitched in the same key as trumpets (octave lower), but call the notes by their concert pitch names. The key in which an instrument is pitched is based on some "home" note or scale; on woodwinds this is often the scale which involves (more or less) picking up the fingers in order from bottom to top, for brass it's the no-valve-or-slide-all-the-way-in note on which the overtone series is based. I hope this helps. As I get more familiar with Wiki world I may take a stab at clarifying some of the explanations in the article.

67.67.223.140 16:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, and welcome to Wikipedia! Don't be afraid to wade right in and start editing articles. If you can improve the section on "reasons for transposing instruments", go for it. I have added the high Db piccolo to the listing as you suggested, but I'm leaving the bass clarinet in A because the article on Bass clarinet mentions it – if you're dubious, ask on the talk page of that article for some evidence. This is sort of a summary page and it makes sense for this to reflect the content of the pages on the individual instruments; the Db piccolo is described on the piccolo page, and they even mention one in Ab. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:46, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! --Craig Stuntz 03:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

"It was the Bb bass clarinet that became a member of the orchestra from the mid-nineteenth century; instruments in A were also in use at least in areas under the German influence." -- Nicholas Shackleton, "The Development of the Clarinet", in "The Cambridge Companion to the Clarinet", Colin Lawson (ed.), Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995. --Rsholmes 03:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First section rewrite

I don't want to make a major change without discussion/input of more experienced Wikipedia users. I've rewritten the first section to try to clarify some issues. I think an understanding of "concert pitch" is useful to establish from the outset, and I think the section on transposing keyboards is confusing and misleading, since it's using a different meaning of the word "transposing":

A transposing instrument is a musical instrument whose music is written at a pitch different from the actual "concert pitch". Concert pitch is the pitch as notated for piano (or any other non-transposing instrument) - e.g., the note "C" on piano is a concert C. On a transposing instrument, a concert C is written as another note. On the surface, this may be confusing, but there are several reasons for the existence of transposing instruments. The difference between a transposing instrument and a non-transposing instrument is only in whether or not the music is written at its sounding (concert) pitch; there is nothing about the physical construction of an instrument that makes the difference.

There are several reasons an instrument may be a transposing instrument:

1- Some instruments belong to a family of instruments of different sizes (and, therefore, sounding at different pitches), such as the clarinet or the saxophone family. Musicians can read the same notes on the page for each instrument in the family without having to learn new fingerings. For example, the note that is written as middle C for the alto saxophone and the tenor saxophone is fingered the same on each instrument, but the alto's sounding pitch will be higher than the tenor's.

2- Some instruments have a range that is too high or too low for their music to be easily written on the staff. In this case the music is written either an octave higher or lower than it sounds, in order to reduce the use of ledger lines. Instruments that “transpose at the octave” are not playing in a different key from concert pitch instruments, but are sounding an octave higher or lower than written.

3- Because of sound and tone quality issues, some C (concert pitch) instruments – saxophones in C (the C melody and C soprano) and the C soprano clarinet, for example – have declined in popularity in favor of the currently more standard versions (Bb soprano and tenor sax, Eb alto and baritone; Bb and A clarinets).

4- Historically, some instruments have come to be accepted (and widely manufactured) with a certain transposition as a standard.

Special-T 06:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing "actual" about concert pitch. An oboe's notation is in no way more real or "actual" than a Bb clarinet's notation. This is all relative. I'm removing the term "actual". --Scotch

[edit] major re-org

I have substantially reorganized and rewritten this article; I hope to have made it clearer. I am a rookie editor, so if I have been too bold in editing, or breached some etiquette, let me know, and revert/edit/reorganize. Special-T 14:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great Highland Bagpipe questions

I don't know that this instrument, which, according to User:Josephbrophy sounds about a semitone higher than the written pitch, is a transposing instrument, or is just subject to a different pitch standard. Meanwhile, I fixed the spelling and syntax of his edit. I will cross-post this to his talk page. Special-T 01:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

the defintion of a transposing instrument as taken from the first line of the article is: A transposing instrument is a musical instrument whose music is written at a pitch different from the actual "concert pitch". and that is what is going on with the highland bagpipe. 100 years ago, the Low A on the chanter was concert pitch at A4 440 hertz. Today chanters are made that play around b4 flat or 475 to 480 hertz. The reason for this is simple; expert players believe it sounds better. music teachers that i know say it is a transposing instrument because the is written Lo G, Lo A, B, etc, but played one semitone higher. the pitch standards for the great highland bagpipe is an entirely different subject since the pipe scale is based on an old gaelic vocal scale. joe 02:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The GHB isn't a transposing instrument in any conventional sense of the word. It uses a different pitch standard, but transposing instruments typically use the same pitch standard as non-transposing instruments even though they sound different notes for the same value on the score. However, in traditional music the GHBs don't tend to be played with other instruments — they are played solo or with other GHBs. Also, the music as written isn't conventional; accidentals and key signatures are omitted since there is really only one mode possible on the instrument. They are also typically tuned to just intonation rather than equal temperament. All in all I'd say it's misleading to group it with other transposing instruments as it's really a special case. --Craig Stuntz 13:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Craig, you just articulated my misgivings accurately. While I appreciate Joe's info and contribution, special cases like this tend to increase confusion about transposing instruments rather than clarify. I'll remove the reference. Special-T 16:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

i will not be able to respond to this action until tomorrow. if you want to remove the reference then you ought to change the definiition of a transposing instrument. will respons tomorrow. joe 17:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Given the issues above, it is confusing to use this instrument as a canonical example of a transposing instrument in this article. Certainly list it and put it in the category; neither Craig nor I is arguing against it being called a transposing instrument. Given its use of a different notation system, its non-adherence to orchestral/band pitch standards (as I understand it, the note it reads as "A" is not exactly a Bb), and its use in all-bagpipe groups, though, it is a confusing, and therefore less-than-ideal example to use. Special-T 19:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

i am sorry but i believe you are missing the big picture about the bagpipe. the bagpipe was the first transposing instrument and is a transposing insturment.

this is a bit long winded but let me respond to the points made:

1. the bagpipe is not a just intonation instrument. it is a natural intonation instrument and a lot more. the uilleann pipe is equal tempered just like the pennywhistle. go to your listing of the pennywhistle in wikipedia and you will see it listed as a transposing instrument.

2. chanters for the uilleann pipe are made to play every semitone over two octaves from Lo D to D to Hi D, just like a piano. chanters are made in the key of D, C, B Natural, C#, B flat, E Flat. Most are used by professional uilleann pipers. They use the Irish repertoire in D, or G and play from D sheet music.

3. Chanters for the Cauld wind pipe and Border pipes, both of which i also play, are made in a number of different keys. We all use the same sheet music. just like the pennywhistle. My pipes were made by Hamish Moore, who is also my teacher. You can find him on google under hamish moore.

4. If you go to Hamish Moore's website, you will find a number of different pipes, including 2 highland pipes, one in Concert A and the other in B Flat. I have on old wooden chanter in concert A. So there is no special pitch standards regarding the pipes.

5. The highland pipe was used for Piobaireacd in Concert A years ago. The scale was based on an old gaelic vocal scale which is mixolydian in character. Many chanters are made following the mixolydian pattern. But not all.

6, A highland chanter can be constructed in equal temperment and different scales, and keys can be added to it like the brien boru chanter. So there are many modes possible. In fact, there are several pentatonic modes available on the existing chanter and tunes have been written specifically for the modes. And it becomes very obvious when a tune contains two modes and the shifts from one mode to asnother.

7. most of the pipe music you all see is band pipe music and is devoid of all key signatures and accidentals. But bands focus on a very small repertoire that is memorized. I have pleanty of pipe music that conforms to the canonical form.

8. i am sure that everything i have said here also applies to the cornemuse and northumbrian pipes.

9. finally, the bagpipe synthesizer, specifically the one made by george boyd, which i sponsored, is all of the above. it is canonical, equal tempered, just anonotated, or whatever you want. any scale, any key, etc. because it is a synthesizer. But we all play to the same sheet music. it too is a tansforming instrument.

i hope this helps and i would be happy to answer any questions. joe 02:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Mixing the GHBs with other pipes does not clarify the issue. The GHBs are very different from, for example, the Uilleann pipes in nearly every respect with regards to pitch and notation. Now the definition of transposing instrument may be a bit imprecise in this article, but the point of it is that when playing "standard" notation there is a different pitch sounded than written. As GHBs use a custom system of notation and the vast majority of instruments are not at A=440 Hz this isn't really true. This is unlike the Uilleann pipes where their music is written in conventional notation and the vast majority are at A = 440 Hz.

Yes, there are "flat" and other non-standard pitch sets in both the GHB and the Uilleann world. But an unqualified set of Uilleann pipes would be pitched in D and an unqualified GHB set would be A mixolydian, and this is true for the majority of sets in use. Talking about far less common pitches only muddies the issue.

Finally, this is a digression, but the Uilleann pipes aren't tuned to equal temprament, generally (see the article) and the whistle isn't really a fixed pitch instrument at all. --Craig Stuntz 03:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Craig: oh well; we are doing a kabuki dance.

your article says or implies: "...the instruments discussed in this article, which have set pitches but merely do not read their music at concert pitch"

you need to change the definition somehow. you also should eliminate pennywhistle as a transforing instrumet.

the uilleann pipes can be tuned to equal temperament but are not normally; but you would have to ask davy spillane or paddy moloney.

the various bagpipes are increasingly used in concerts and are tuned accordingly.

joe 15:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bagpipe is a transposing instrument

i am sitting here reading book 3, Structured Learning, published by the Royal Scottish Pipe Band Association. It was written by a distinguished group of nine musicians.

On page 3.7.1 it says: "in all tansposing instruments (such as the Great Highland Bagpipe and most woodwind and brass instruments), the written notes represent the fingering as opposed to the pitch of the sounds produced."

I am hoping I can get to interview the top players within the next few months, to get their opinions on a number of musical issues. If i get lucky i might catch Paddy Moloney, chieftains.

I am also trying to connect with my piano teacher, crag najjar. he is a producer and show biz person and was professor of music at the Berkeley School in Boston. i need his opinion.

i dont want to drop the issue because i beleive i am right in my analysis. but if wrong, i will drop the issue. i am only interested in the facts. somewehere in the world there is the recognized expert on transposing instruments and i will find him. joe 21:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Do note that an interview you conduct or a scholar you ask would be original research, and can't be used here. The book reference is usable here, though. --Craig Stuntz 00:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

bummer!

in a few days i will attempt to insert some info on the bagpipes. if you do no think it fits, please delete it. joe 01:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: "The book reference is usable here, though." It just so happens, however, that the passage in the book referenced is nonsense. All you can say generally is that a transposing instrument does not read concert pitch, in other words, that the sound of a given one of its notes (notated pitch) does not correspond to the sound of the same note as played by a certain body of other instruments. "Written notes" (a redundant phrase) do not "represent the fingering" for transposing instruments any more than they do for other instruments. Numerals placed above notes--in the case of the piano and string instruments, at least--represent fingering, not notes. --Scotch

No, it's not nonsense, though it could have been more clearly expressed. You are being unreasonably narrow in your interpretation of 'fingering'. It is true that the note in the score does not directly tell the player which fingers (or holes) to use. But it does represent the fingering in the sense of a particular (learned) pattern of fingers (or holes), irrespective of which instrument in a family if being played.

Please sign your contribution with four tildes (~~~~) --ColinFine 21:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, "nonsense" is a figure of speech of course. It's obvious what the writer means, but he hasn't said it, and I don't think I'm being "unreasonably narrow" at all. Sure, an instrumentalist who switches among saxophones (alto, tenor, and baritone, say) uses the same fingering to play the same given note, but that does not mean in any way at all that his written notes represent fingerings rather than pitch. They represents pitch just as much as written notes for non-transposing instruments represent pitch. The important point to grasp here is that pitch notation is relative. TheScotch 03:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See also

You may find this template quite useful for describing pitch ranges. Vandykee 10:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saxes in C and F

The saxophone article asserts that some of Sax's envisioned "orchestral" saxes in C and F were never made. I'm not aware of any instances of any other than the C-melody and the F-mezzo, though I'd be happy to learn otherwise. I think the remaining C and F saxes should be delisted unless they can be shown to exist. -- Rsholmes 11:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)