Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol

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Archives /archive of previous naming discussions/polls

Contents 1 Move proposal 2 Excuse me, but is this how we are going to do things? 3 The last edit 4 more questions 5 Cognate categories 6 Name change 7 Latin name

[edit] Move proposal

I'm happy to announce that we have finally arrived at consensus on the name of this article (take a look at the 402-kilobyte archive if you wish). This article will be located at Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. This is not everyone's first choice, but thankfully everyone thought this name was good, or at least satisfactory. I'm going to move-protect this article and ask that no further move requests be created, as this name has been the outcome of an enormous amount of discussion. Thank you very much for reading, and most of all, thank you to the many editors who worked so hard to arrive at this name. —METS501 (talk) 02:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally... --Adriano 09:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

As You You said not first but my II. choice, thanks (in the next days I'll load a picture of the first Italian stamp using this name!--Martin Se 10:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin, I really look forward to seeing a picture of the stamp! Just a note, I put Trentin-Adesc Aut first because of alphabetical order. But I agree with your edit, Trentin-Sudtirol seems to be more commonly used in Ladin to refer to the region. One question I had for you also when you got a chance. In Ladin do they really use the umlaut ü or not? thanks! Taalo 16:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

a copyrighted foto of the new stamp: http://www.stol.it/nachrichten/artikel.asp?ArtID=90286&KatID=da

Wonderful. This seems like the most adequate solution. john k 23:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excuse me, but is this how we are going to do things?

It literally took months to push people into a compromise, and then you read stuff like this?? [1]

Hi, here (unfortunately) I am afraid it looks like the question has been settled. However, I think it will need to be soon posed again towards the contrary move. Now I will lobby a bit for South Tyrol. See you soon, --Clamengh 20:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

can you people not get it into your skulls to compromise/share? This isn't a continous battle to grab everything for one side. Surreal :( Taalo 06:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The last edit

Hey guys (and gals, if there are any),

The last edit removed some stuff in a way which on talk pages can be construed as vandalism. Nevertheless I would like to support the edit. We have just achieved what seemed quite impossible, a general—almost a universal—agreement that Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is not a bad name for the article. Hardly anybody’s first choice (except mine), but OK. Amazing! We just have to congratulate each other and ourselves on being thoughtful, flexible and reasonable. Meantime, I think that earlier in the discussion I moaned that everyone was insistently editing the talk page while letting the article itself languish. I was wrong. It is much better than it was. Let’s be a little circumspect for a while before saying things which are a bit of tease!

I am taking an early vodka, and raise it to say ‘Prost’, and ‘Salute’ to everyone here. Do please correct my German and my Italian, and add in the Ladin! —Ian Spackman 10:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

If someone can add the Ladin I shall be particularly happy because it will require me to raise my glass again. Do not hesitate! —Ian Spackman 10:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to re-add the Ladin bit that Gryffindor keeps deleting. I'll dig up and cite the reference Markussep produced. Taalo 22:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't easy, but compromise is what it's all about on Wikipedia, isn't it? I'm raising my glass. Gryffindor 20:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it sure wasn't easy. But we still have some ways to go. I'm quite curious regarding your attempt to close the offer of mediation from Lar. We only got as far as one name so far. That mediation offer was specifically written to help with the overall regional names. Taalo 21:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we can close out the mediation and go with the consensus - we have plenty of participation at this point. I think the neutral solution for South Tyrol will be to split the article... even with a reduced article on the province proper will help. Rarelibra 17:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Which is fine with me, because this would give us a chance to have AA/ST and Trentino have there own pages and still allow for P of TN/BZ pages for the province proper. I do have one question though. Will the page be moved from South Tyrol to Alto Adige/South Tyrol or Alto Adige/Südtirol? If we do a split, could we have the Province of BZ listed as it is in Brittanica as Province of Bolzano-Bozen? Appending AA/ST just doesn't look right to me, considering basically every Province in Italy is simply and objectively named after the largest city. Taalo 18:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] more questions

Gryffindor, why do you insist on blanking out the Trentin-Adesc Aut? Markessup did a very good job to even find sources for this. Just as well, it was found that the most common English usage is Trentino-Alto Adige. If you insist on adding back your Trentino-South Tyrol -- there should be clarification based on facts. Taalo 21:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cognate categories

I hope that you are all as bored with voting as I am. However there is a vote taking place here as to the question whether the categories relating to Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol should have their names changed to match the newly agreed name for the region. Do express your views! —Ian Spackman 17:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ian, you need to add some witty new version we can move that categories to again.  :-) The region of chaos? boh. Taalo 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

How about Austro-Italian territory of Taalo/Gryffindor? At first sight it’s a dull suggestion because it’s so obviously an impressive name that no-one could possibly vote against it. Current google-hits zero, but tomorrow’s google-hits will be counted in googols. However it does leave scope for argufying. Should it rather be Italo-Austrian region of Gryffindor/Taalo? I think we could debate that between now and September and fill up the pre-Christmas months by bickering over slashes and hyphens. —Ian Spackman 23:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S. No-one has come up with the Ladin for ‘cheers!’ Are they all tee-total? —Ian Spackman 23:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Yikes, I'm sorry I asked. :P I'll agree, only if Austrian/German goes first. ^_- Taalo 17:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

'cheers' in Rumantsch (a language similar to Ladin) is 'viva!' [2] But, it seems that it's too early for a toast... :-( --Adriano 09:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Then ‘Viva!’, at what is a very appropriate time in Buckinghamshire, where we do UTC. —Ian Spackman 12:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

Is it possible that every month we have a discussion about the name of this region? Unfortunately I read about the change only today but I think South Tyrol is universally accepted in English. Well, if the bilingual name Alto Adige/Südtirol with the slash is admitted here i will ask for changing again the local names policy for South Tyrol's places re-introducing Bolzano/Bozen instead of Bolzano. Skafa^{Tell me} 20:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I wrote this before reading the article about Bolzano. That's ok, sorry. But please change also Meran-Merano and other places! Skafa^{Tell me}

Please read Talk:Communes of South Tyrol and the survey on it. There are good arguments against bilingual names for towns, I won't repeat them here. See for instance Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names. Markussep 21:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin name

We discussed this some on the Trento talk page. I added German at Trento because of a good argument made by Tridentinus, and also put back the Latin word Tridentum. How does it possibly hurt this article to be comprehensive and also include the Latin name Tridentinum et Tirolum Meridionale?? Note that besides on Trento, I made a similar format on Merano-Meran, Brennero-Brenner. I find it interesting, I imagine a few others do as well. After all, it is just a few characters of text... Taalo 01:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Discuss here before blanking valid edits. Taalo 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Historic official names are commonplace in Wikipedia at the start of an article. See Lviv, Kaliningrad, Nice. Not to mention that Trento was part of the Holy Roman Empire, and at one point had a sizeable German population (30% at least); Goethe coming to Italy, and arriving in the German district, still heard enough German to write he didn't really feel he was in Italy yet. For all these reasons I feel that the German name should be in. Tridentinus 16:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• and an excellent argument, and why I have added both Trient and Tridentum to Trento. Are only a couple of editor's contributions valid now? Taalo 02:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No, Taalo. It's ok to add Tridentum to Trento, Bauzanum to Bolzano and Londinium to London, as well as Hispania to Spain, which used to be a Roman province. Tridentinum et Tirolum Meridionale was never a Latin name or Roman province, so - please excuse my following words - it's nonsense. Therefore I'll blank it (but only once). If there is anyone who supports your opinion, we can discuss it further. PhJ 10:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Tridentum is a historic name (the city was foundet in roman period)

The region was created 1948 the latin name was never officialy used (ACK PhJ)--Martin Se 11:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Not only are PhJ and Emes correct, but Taalo - you violated 3RR. Once an edit is disputed, you cannot continue to push the edit through, instead, you discuss on the talk page (and, mind you, it is not a "blanking of the page" as you claim it to be - it is a revert of the edit). Latin has no bearing on this article - if that is the case, we would have to go back through all the articles with history to the Roman Empire and insert latin names - and that just isn't relevant. The relevance is for the articles already mentioned. So please - stop. Rarelibra 12:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)