Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Italy

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Contents 1 Banner and userbox 2 Italy AID 3 Romano Prodi 4 Wikipedia Day Awards 5 Alberto Rabagliati 6 Italy-org-stub 7 Possible expansion of project? 8 Using Italian terms 9 Chafik Charobim 10 Prime minister of Italy 11 Italian film titles 12 Ludovico Racaniello: a spoof? 13 San Giuliano di Puglia 14 Pasta

[edit] Banner and userbox

There are currently a userbox and a banner with assessment parameters which can be found in Category:WikiProject Italy. Badbilltucker 19:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Tiny point, but I wonder whether it might be worth considering using the Coat of Arms of the Italian Republic as the project’s logo, rather than the flag? The steel cog-wheel representing work and industry seems rather appropriate to a wikiproject. —Ian Spackman 14:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, I see your point, but I'm not sure. That represents the Republic, and the scope of the project goes back to well before that... --Nehwyn 17:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

True. It’s also true that the scope of the project predates the tricolour, of course. But I guess the flag is more recognizable: especially in small sizes. —Ian Spackman 12:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Modifying them to change the image is extremely easy. Simply substitute in the "Image" address of the correct image. Just thinking here that the sooner the discussion of which image is used ends, the sooner the finalized templates can start to applied on the articles. Not implying that the discussion is not worth having, because I had stupidly never even considered anything but the current flag, so thanks for thinking further than I myself did. Badbilltucker 01:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Added {{PAGENAME}} to project banner. - Patricknoddy (talk • contribs) 9:31am, February 10, 2007

[edit] Italy AID

How about we have an article improvement drive for articles about Italy?Here is an example of one. Kingjeff 17:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Good. —Ian Spackman 12:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Another possibility is to do like WikiProject Biography and some other projects do. They've tried to determine what are the top importance articles to their project to let the members know that those articles are the ones requiring the greatest attention the quickest, regardless of how many members work on them when. Either way works. Badbilltucker 01:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romano Prodi

There's been an edit war related to his alleged ties to the KGB. Could someone from this Wikiproject held decide whether the allegations merit inclusion? The section in question is here. I couldn't really find any mainstream information on this, and I'm inclined to believe it's a fringe theory being given a little too much merit. Because of the controversial nature of the material, I have removed it per WP:BLP until consensus about reliable sources can be determined. --Wafulz 02:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The allegations are cruel. But thats the way it works in the world of intel. One day a cuddly Santa is giving out presents, the next he's been uncovered as a KGB guy putting mics in the presents! Its not so serious and the controvosy diserves to be covered without project italy's opinion, they are as clueless as we are. According to the guidelines the main thing is are refs. Chavatshimshon 10:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If all editors are clueless, the section should simply be removed. It’s very boring in a way, but Wikipedia is intended to be an encyclopedia! —Ian Spackman 15:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 21:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alberto Rabagliati

Hello all! I come under the auspices of WikiProject Abandoned Articles, a project aiming to bring 'abandoned' articles back to life. I was hoping that someone here might be able to help us with Alberto Rabagliati, which hasn't been edited for about two years. The original text seems to have been translated from the Italian Wikipedia, so there may be new information there to be translated into the English Wiki. Thanks for your time. --Lord Pheasant 23:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italy-org-stub

Hi guys,

The template {{Italy-org-stub}} has recently been created for the Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub Sorting. It would be nice if you could add it to any stubs about organizations based in Italy you happen to come accross.

Thanx,

--Carabinieri 19:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible expansion of project?

Would the members of this project object to including articles related to San Marino to its scope? Right now there is no specific project dealing with it, and the state is entirely surrounded by Italy. Badbilltucker 16:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Using Italian terms

How would you all feel about using Italian words and nomenclatures in all Italian administrative division article texts? eg, refer to Regioni of Italy throughout the text of the articles. --Bob 03:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chafik Charobim

This is the most relevent WikiProject I could find, but this is a new article that could do with a little attention, and I was hoping one of you would be willing to do it. I didn't write it, just tagged it and moved it. Thanks. J Milburn 11:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prime minister of Italy

How do people here feel about whether the "M" should be capitalized? I think it should not be, a maggior ragione because "prime minister" is not even the official title. Note that the last person to move the article, User:OCNative, has blocked it from being moved back by editing the redirect at prime minister of Italy so that it has a history; the redirect will have to be admin deleted to accomplish the move. --Trovatore 16:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"Prime Minister" is an English term and as such it should be treated following the rules of the English language; if it was left untranslated, as "primo ministro", I would agree on keeping it lowercase. To give an example, we don't write "italian" instead of "Italian" even if in Italian it doesn't need capitalization. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 19:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, but I'm not convinced it should be capitalized in English. The guidelines at WP:MOS are somewhat confused on this point (I've left a note on the talk page there). Note that we don't capitalize "president" unless used with a name ("Today, President Bush, the American president, said..."). Capitlizing "Prime Minister" strikes me as a British usage, which is fine at Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. But in the case of Italy, since it's neither American nor part of the Commonwealth and none of the other spelling criteria apply, the fallback would be to the first non-stub version of the article, which uses a lowercase m. --Trovatore 19:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Btw, what about using the official name (Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri, it should at least be a redirect)? "Primo ministro" and "premier" are common, but people generally refer to the prime minister as "Presidente del Consiglio". Actually, it's funny, the article on it.wiki is at it:Presidente del Consiglio dei ministri: the user Gp 1980 moved it saying it should be lowercase, but I'm not convinced. On the official page it's capitalized; I guess I'll move it. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 19:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

That should be a redirect, as should presidente del consiglio dei ministri and president of the council of ministers (note that President of the Council of Ministers is already there as a redirect), but first, I think, we ought to settle what they should redirect to. Otherwise it's just more cleanup in the case of a move. It is really peculiar that the it.wiki article would have "Consiglio" uppercase but "ministri" lowercase; that should certainly be fixed if nothing else. But I don't think the capitalization on the official site of the presidency is particularly relevant; WP is entitled to its own capitalization style (though clearly it shouldn't make one up out of whole cloth, and it should make logical sense and be consistent to the extent possible). --Trovatore 20:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Even as a Briton I would use a lower-case “M” in this case as it is not an official title. But, as usual with naming questions, the content seems to raise more questions than the name. It describes the prime thingie (aka Prime Thingie) as holding the “fourth-most important state office”. That seems very odd. Even if we accept that Napolitano ‘comes above’ Prodi (which is sometimes true, sometimes not), who are the two chaps (or chicks) who come between them? —Ian Spackman 19:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I never thought about it in depth; from googling around a bit, it seems that the the order is as follows:

1. Presidente della Repubblica
2. Presidente del Senato della Repubblica
3. Presidente della Camera dei Deputati
4. Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri

The order is the one of the presidency, not that of their actual power: if the President of the Republic dies or is unable to do his job, the President of the Senate becomes temporarily President of the Republic, and so on. The President of the Republic is "above" the prime minister because he represents the State (il Presidente della Repubblica è il capo dello Stato e rappresenta l'unità nazionale - quote from the Italian Constitution). --Εξαίρετος (msg) 21:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that’s clear! Thanks. —Ian Spackman 09:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I have started the "requested moves" process at talk:Prime Minister of Italy; please feel free to contribute. --Trovatore 08:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italian film titles

In film titles, the foreign version often becomes the title of the article, so we are having a discussion in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Capitalization in titles, trying to establish what is correct for each language. We would appreciate if you could drop us a line about it. Hoverfish Talk 21:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ludovico Racaniello: a spoof?

I recently translated this article from the Italian Wikipedia—it originally turned up here as a machine translation and a proper one had been requested—and I am a little concerned.

The problem is that outside of Wikipedia and its parasites I have been quite unable to source any part of the article which refers directly to Ludovico. The same problem, in fact, applies to the article on the Racaniello family itself, which is supposed to be an ancient noble family of Umbrian origins but which fails to turn up at all at http://www.sardimpex.com, which I take to be a fairly decent genealogy site. I don’t just mean that there is no page for the family, but that I cannot even find an instance of a member of the family marrying some other Italian noble. (Nor does it seem to turn up anywhere else known to Google.)

Of course it might be a relatively minor member of a relatively minor family whose importance is being exaggerated a bit. But at the moment I feel that I should probably nominate my work for deletion. Any thoughts? —Ian Spackman 14:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

No idea; if the family was really noble there should have been some google hit, at least on sardimpex. Since there isn't any, it was at most a prominent family of Todi; for instance, the Medici weren't a noble family, although they were signori of Florence, until Florence became a duchy. And Ludovico is after all classified as a condottiere, so basically the leader of a mercenary army; I doubt they were noble at all. Thus, I guess the family should be proposed for deletion: as for Ludovico, I'm not really sure, maybe the author (who appears to be anonymous btw) used a printed publication as source. I'll propose the family article on it.wiki to be deleted and raise the question there. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 15:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Εξαίρετος, that’s very helpful. I’ll watch the Italian pages. The articles certainly claim nobility: indeed the one on Ludovico refers to a ‘ducato di Racaniello’, no less.

If, as I suspect, it is a spoof then it has been done rather well! The background history seems to be right. Hawkwood, for instance, did vacate the castle of Montecchio Vesponi at about the right time: but nothing I could google said who succeeded him there. (Odd, as it’s rather an important-looking castle.) Cortona did pass to Florence in 1411. (Basically, they bought it: but that doesn’t preclude there having been a bit of fight before.) Arezzo probably did have something like a proconsul in 1419. But does the internet contain a list of rulers or governers covering that year? Not one I could find.

It’s rather as if someone has spotted a little gap in the internet’s coverage of Italian history and has invented a clever fiction to plug it. Or perhaps they have plugged it with the truth?

Finally the stemma feels a bit dubious. But I am no student of heraldry.

Cheers! Ian Spackman 16:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, it:Utente:Senofonte added a reference to the article in both it.wiki and here; he also says he saw the stemma when visiting Cortona. According to the book, though, Racaniello administered a contado, not a duchy; the difference is that a duchy implies a duke, while a "contado", which originally was the same as a "contea" (county), doesn't automatically imply a count, as the term was also used for the land owned by a comune (in modern Italian, "contadino" means "farmer"). I don't know which word to pick to translate "contado". Any thoughts? --Εξαίρετος (msg) 09:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Splendid work! On contado, the Italian reads “contado di Racaniello”, rather than “contado di [some commune]”. So perhaps translate as “Racaniello lands”. It’s slightly vague, but I don’t think that’s a great problem, and it is idiomatic English. However, I realise that I may have made a mistake in translating that sentence anyway. Currently on the Italian Wiki it reads

Nel 1397 entrò in conflitto con la famiglia dei Casali per il possesso di Cortona, conflitto che si protrasse per più di quindici anni, fino al 1411, anno in cui il territorio passò sotto il controllo di Firenze e rientrò nel contado di Racaniello.

I assumed Ludovico was the implicit subject of rientrò (as he is of the entrò at the start of the sentence). But it could be that territorio is the subject. That gives us two possible meanings to the last bit of the sentence:

…1411, the year in which the territory [of Cortona] passed under the control of Florence, and in which Ludovico returned to the Racaniello lands.

or:

…1411, the year in which the territory [of Cortona] passed under the control of Florence and its administration was handed back to Racaniello.

(In context, the second doesn’t seem very compelling, as there’s no prior indication that the territory of Cortona had been part of the contado di Racaniello before 1397. )

I don’t at all pretend to have good Italian, so a glance by a native speaker would be very welcome.

(Another tiny note. 1397–1411 is not più di quindici anni!)

—Ian Spackman 14:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, Italian is a very ambiguous language, so I can't say I'm sure, but the second translation feels better (just a single comma would have changed the "feeling", though). However, "rientrare" is very ambiguous (an online dictionary gives 10 different meanings; specifically, it doesn't only mean "re-enter", but also (see #5 in the dictionary I linked) "be part of (a group)". So, in this case I think the meaning is that Florence won Cortona's territory and made it a part of Racaniello's contado; I think "contado di Racaniello" in this context means the portion of the land of Florence Racaniello administered. About the tiny note: you're right! :) --Εξαίρετος (msg) 15:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Brilliant. And thanks for making the appropriate changes to the page. —Ian Spackman 10:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] San Giuliano di Puglia

I created 2002 Molise earthquake. Categories adding and linking help needed. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Good work. I have added it to Category:2002 in Italy and a newly-created Category:Earthquakes in Italy. If anyone knows of any other Italian earthquake articles please add those too. (I couldn’t find any, not even for the Messina earthquake of 1908 which has an Italian article at it:Terremoto del 1908.)

On linking help, that will best be done by someone who knows about earthquakes and plate techtonics, I think. Not me! I’ve added the wikify template in the hope it will attract someone.—Ian Spackman 15:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pasta

Greetings,

I have been editing on the Pasta article for sometime now. The article was in this state when I started editing. I've tried to use reliable sources to bring it to bring it to this stage.

Since I have nominated the article for good article, any feedback on the current state and suggestions of improvement will be much appreciated.

Regards,

Phillip Rosenthal 09:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well great job on the article it looks much better. Lakers 05:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, that encourages me to submit more articles related to Italian cuisine for review. Many regards, Phillip Rosenthal 05:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)