Talk:Ukrainian alphabet

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1 Non-phonetic spellings
2 Palatalization before є
3 About в when not followed by a vowel
4 Azbuka is a Russian word?
5 Cyrillic in Wikipedia
6 The last table

[edit] Non-phonetic spellings

Are there are any examples of Ukrainian alphabet not being phonetic other than the absence of letters for ʥ/ʤ? I can understand how pidžaryty and bdžola are pronounced differently due to one being the combination of two phonemes and one being one phoneme with a different pronunciation. But does every declination and conjugation remain pronounced as written in "standard" Ukrainian? --iopq

There are definitely a number of phonetic variations in speech. The [x] is sometimes de-voiced towards [ç], and [v] is usually de-voiced to [w] at the end of a word (and in some regional accents is virtually always pronounced [w]). Some vowels tend to become reduced towards a schwa in normal speech, but not nearly to the extent of Russian akanye (see Russian phonology#Unstressed vowels). I'm no expert; these are just some random observations.

But I think phonemically, spelling in Ukrainian is consistent and intuitive. If you can read a word, you can pronounce it—Ukrainian dictionaries have no pronunciation guide.

Interesting example of піджарити and бджола. It seems to me that the placement of the syllable break affects the difference, but I don't know if that is intuitive or memorized. "Pid" is obviously a prefix, but when the word is spoken quickly I think the d-ᴣ almost merges into ʤ. Perhaps the b-ʤ combination forces that to be a single sound. —Michael Z. 2005-09-29 05:09 Z

I am aware of the phonetic differences, but I was trying to see if there were any problems with phonemic differences like there are in Russian. In піджарити and бджола the prefix with д adds to the root beginning with ж and is therefore pronounced as two sounds (of course they start to run over each other but you can time a place when д starts but ж hasn't started yet) in бджола you have a root with the original phoneme intact spelled by using two letters because there is no letter that corresponds to that phoneme that actually exists in the language.

There's also o pronounced as u when unstressed. If I heard it I must have forgotten it, but I've read about it.

--iopq

[edit] Palatalization before є

Give me ONE word where є is rendered as /ʲe/ I don't think it can even COME after a consonant. This is not Russian, guys :)

--Iopq 08:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Лєнь? Is that a native word or borrowed? I suppose it could be used in loan words or quotations: «Російський поліцай сказав "нєт!"», but that doesn't count as part of the language. —Michael Z. 2005-10-3 09:25 Z

That word is not even in the dictionary! Yahoo search gives 76 matches. Most of them names. Compare: Лєн gets 232 matches

Google search is so smart it matches the Russian word. Anyway, the official usage should be the same as the letter ї --Iopq 00:09, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking Google is too smart too, but realized that if you put it in double quotation marks, Google searches for the exact text; "лєнь": I get 1,210 results. The word isn't in my dictionary either (a poor one), but then it's not exactly a literary term. —Michael Z. 2005-10-5 01:24 Z

It's not a term at all. I think it's just used by people who don't know Ukrainian very well. The correct term is ледарство (thanks, mom :D) which IS in the dictionary. -Iopq 03:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

My mum, originally from Львів, uses it as a slightly more disparaging synonym for лінюх, a lazy person. —Michael Z. 2005-10-6 06:05 Z

Синє. Found this one in uk:Українська абетка, and it also brings to mind блакитнє; there must be other adjectives with that ending. Must remember to translate the history section from there into English, although it will be a bit of a tough slog for me. —Michael Z. 2005-10-6 06:05 Z

Finally a valid word :D there's also lĺeća

I can't believe it took me this long to find these Thanks -Iopq 09:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Is that ллєча? Does that mean "pouring" (noun)? Couldn't find that in my dictionary, but it has ллєш. —Michael Z. 2005-10-17 04:26 Z

It's ллєця. I use a haček to denote post-alveolars (although listening to some samples makes me believe it might be retroflex) and I use the acute to denote palatalization. I use c as the affricate ts.

Oops, I should have realized that. —Michael Z. 2005-10-18 00:02 Z

[edit] About в when not followed by a vowel

Ve (в) is usually not voiced when not followed by a vowel, and pronounced as /w/. In some regional accents it is virtually always unvoiced. It's either one or the other! /w/ is a *voiced* labialized velar approximant. Plus, I have not heard the unvoicing outside of Russian where it turns to /f/ --Iopq 00:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I've adjusted it. Does this sound right? —Michael Z. 2005-10-6 00:45 Z

Ve (в) usually loses its frication when not followed by a vowel, and is pronounced as the approximant /w/. In some regional accents it is virtually always pronounced /w/.

Sounds good. -Iopq 09:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Azbuka is a Russian word?

Someone edited the page replacing azbuka with abetka. It's fine, but azbuka is a word from like the twelfth century... coming from the names of the letters - az, buka (А, Б) When this term got invented there was no Russian or Ukrainian yet! -Iopq 07:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

There is the word "азбука" in modern Ukrainian, but it sounds a bit as archaism. "Абетка" is more common. It is more a matter of taste, after all.--AndriyK 11:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC)