Talk:Vancouver

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Vancouver is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 8, 2007.
Article Milestones Date Process Result September 6, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 7, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed October 8, 2006 Peer review Reviewed October 19, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted October 23, 2006 Good article nominee Listed November 22, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

	To-do list for Vancouver:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Please feel free to add to the list. 1. To help with other 'Vancouver-related' articles, please visit the WikiProject Vancouver and the Vancouver Portal to find a list of articles needing attention. 2. Help keep FA Status. Revert vandalism and original research on sight. Maintain the integrity of the article by watching for NPOV and WP:NEO issues. 3. Several editors have been spamming the external links section, usually to vancouver profile. These links should be removed immediately per WP:COI. 4. Reference Integrity: Remove inaccurate and non-credible references. Revert vandalism to references. Make sure all references are formatted properly (using {{cite web}}, {{cite news}}, {{cite book}} and the like) with a retrieved date if possible. 5. Upload quality photos that illustrate Vancouver and show people that would improve the article (preferably to Wikimedia Commons so they can be used across Wiki projects).

This article is within the scope of multiple WikiProjects Click [show] for further details
Vancouver Portal This article is part of WikiProject Vancouver, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada and the surrounding metropolitan area. To participate, edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the quality scale. Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale. Assessment comments.
This article is part of WikiProject British Columbia, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to British Columbia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. British Columbia Portal FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the quality scale. Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale. Assessment comments.
Vancouver is a Showcase Article for the Vancouver Portal. It; (or a previous version of it) has been identified as a noteworthy article for display relating to Vancouver. Please feel free to visit the portal for more information.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project member page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the quality scale. High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
This article is supported by WikiProject Cities, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Cities on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page. FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the Project's quality scale. See comments for details.

This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and the next release version of Wikipedia. This Geography article has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale.

Contents 1 Archive 2 Introduction 3 Landing page 4 "Yaletown Green" 5 Vancouver's Wealth 6 Coat of arms 7 City of Vancouver 8 Fred Herzog

[edit] Archive

Talk page discussion from December 06 to Feb 07 has been archived in #5. Bobanny 04:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

I attempted a re-write of the introduction here to make it a little less cluttered and disjointed. I don't want to step on any toes by just replacing what's already here, so I'm soliciting feedback beforehand. Cheers, Bobanny 22:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Nearly every sentence begins with "Vancouver" in the first few paragraphs, resulting in a stilted, repetative introduction. Please change it. Jackmont, MAR 4 2007

[edit] Landing page

Hello. I am unhappy with the fact that a Wikipedia serach for the word "Vancouver" lands on the Vancouver, BC, Canada page, instead of a generic disambiguation page (i.e., see "Springfield"), mainly because Vancouver, Washington, USA is the older city, being incorporated prior to Vancouver BC. Some might want to see a search for "Vancouver" land on Vancouver, WA, USA, but I think a Springfield-like intermediate page is the best idea. This has the added benefit of meeting an important Wikipedia goal -- article neutrality -- since an intermediate landing page would favor neither city. If there are other cities or towns named Vancouver, they, too, could be referenced there. Any comments? If no strong opposition, let's set this up. Cjkporter 00:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

If you dig through the talk page archives up top there, you'll find the relevant discussion that ended with the current arrangement, which was agreed to by Washington Vancouverites as well. The reason is that Vancouver, BC is the largest 2 million vs. 150,000 for Van, WA) and most widely known city of that name, and the convention is to go straight there (as with Paris, etc). I disagree with the proposed change or that it has anything to do with "article neutrality." The more likely target for users searching for Vancouver is the one in BC, and making it land on a disambig page adds an extra step for that majority. At the very top of this article points the way to other Vancouvers. Bobanny 00:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy with it the way it is. There is a clear "other uses" disambiguation link at the top of the current article that displays "For other uses, see Vancouver (disambiguation)." and this is all that is needed. (yes, I did read WP:DISAMBIG). Thomas Dzubin _Talk 00:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

See also Talk:Vancouver/Archive3#Name . Thomas Dzubin _Talk 00:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

There was a fairly large discussion about Vancouver and whether it should be a disambiguation page since there is a Vancouver, Washington city with the same name as well as other. However, the overwhelming concensus was to leave Vancouver since that particular city is far more notable. Not that Vancouver, British Columbia is as notable as Paris or New York but the same reasoning was applied relative to the other articles. Mkdw^talk 02:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

For everyone's information, this exact same discussion is taking place at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(settlements)#Vancouver, though not binding, a consensus is in the process of being established again. Luke! 04:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Luke! Also see the survey here, where such a move was overwhelmingly opposed. Looks like one of those perennial issues we'll have to keep addressing periodically. Personally, I think it should be a redirect to Hongcouver. Bobanny 05:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

You may also want to see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Vancouver/Naming_conventions#Vancouver. Mkdw^talk 06:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

" ... the overwhelming concensus was to leave Vancouver since that particular city is far more notable ...." This being Wikipedia, I'd like to see a source cited for this "fact." My suspicion is that it is based wholly upon Vancouver, BC, Canada being the more populous city. To my mind, if there is any question at all about which city is being searched for (and one has only to look at several recent news stories about people traveling to the "wrong" Vancouver to understand that a search for "Vancouver" is not necessarily a search for Vancouver, BC, Canada), the best solution is a disambiguation page. Hey, I have nothing against Vancouver, BC - both my parents grew up there. I just don't agree with the implied assumption that the vast majority of searches for Vancouver are for Vancouver, BC. For me to agree with the above statements, I would have to be convinced NOT that Vancouver is the more "notable" or "prominent" city, but more to the point, WHY a disambiguation page is in any way a bad idea or would cause any harm. Cjkporter 21:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

We're trying to make Wikipedia as helpful as possible. If you use interiot's tools you will see that the article Vancouver is accessed by a considerable margin than that of any other article that includes the name Vancouver. Futhermore a Vancouver disambig page exists at the top and is easily accessible. Doing otherwise would only be more inconvienent for everyone else. Please see WP:SNOW about the future of this time and time again debate. Mkdw^talk 21:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. The "harm" is the inconvenience to the majority of people looking for "Vancouver." The onus is on you, Cjkporter, to show that the benefit of a disambig landing page outweighs the user-friendliness of coming straight here, in light of the several discussions that have already taken place. But first it seems that you need to decide whether you are disputing that Van, BC is significantly more notable or not. If you're not contesting notability, then you should probably make your case elsewhere, because it's a convention that applies to more than just Vancouver on Wikipedia. If you are challenging notability, I'd personally like to see you come up with links to these "several recent news stories" about people ending up in the wrong Vancouver. Bobanny 02:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Yaletown Green"

(removing "Yaletown Green" text - needs more development, proper citations, rewrite - and wasn't the West End around and high-density LONG before "Yaletown Green"?)

I've never heard "Yaletown Green" but I certainly know what they're talking about....except that "West End" is wildly wrong here; the bland-green-glass is a Downtown South/Yaletown/Expo Lands travesty and is actually rare in the West End, unless I guess in the newer luxury stuff built off Robson or over by the Park; no doubt it's all over Coal Harbour too. But the West End was not known for anything like "Yaletown Green", but rather for a diversity of styles in both houses and apartments; some mention should be made of the city's battle to preserve open space, i.e. you can build so high if you leave so much space around the tower, hence all the landscaped grounds/plazas around West End towers; and how this came about is that one building between the Sylvia and Davie & Denman, which was the first modern beachfront apartment and "threatened" to be the model for the whole waterfront; which would have built a wall of buildings blocking the view for everyone further in; so the architectural/zoning legacy in the West End has to do with THAT; not with glass colour; most West End buildings are not glass-covered anyway, but generally tile or stucco. It should also be mentioned that the West End had a higher population density when it was all cut-up old houses with sleeping rooms and suites built into them, plus the low-rises; the tower zoning regs actually wind up with there being fewer people per lot, somehow; or so it was for a while; as tower construction proceeded in the '60s and '70s the area's population actually dropped. Sorry I can't provide a cite for this, but supposeldy it's true....Kluckner might have a comment about it via email, maybe.Skookum1 17:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vancouver's Wealth

There's a statement that Vancouver is affluent based on perception of numbers of luxury vehicles. However, according to StatsCan, Vancouver has a *lower* median income than half of other major metropolitan cities in canada. Further searching of statscan will show that Vancouver does have slightly more families (18%) making more than 100K compared to other cities (15%), but also has greater poverty problems. Therefore, the "perception" of wealth, at least by my measure, reflects common mythos but not reality. I am not modifying the sentence yet, though, since I'm open to being shown where my analysis is incorrect. A. March 19, 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.81.158.14 (talk • contribs).

My reading of that section is that it points out the ostentatious display of wealth rather than actual wealth, and that wealth was suggested by the pricey houses significant #s of people live in. Mention of income and its distribution would be a welcome addition and complement the cost of living that is mentioned. Bobanny 01:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I made some changes, which were reverted; left a note on the reverter's talk page. I am not a regular wiki contributor; but I do know that as the Economy section stands, it's not borne out by fact, and that the StatsCan link I put in has the data to back up my (not particularly inflammatory or destructive) change. I don't know whether the revert just caught me in the crossfire of some other issue, or whether it was targeted for removal. Cleaning me up stylistically I certainly could appreciate! However, if a factual link was targeted for removal rather than editing, than I suggest the current sentence is more advertising than anything else, and I dispute its accuracy.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.81.158.14 (talk • contribs).

I'm not the one who reverted, so I'm only speaking for myself here. As I noted above, I believe you interpreted that section incorrectly. Median income doesn't speak to the the stuff you're claiming it negates. "Generally affluent" is a bit weasely by itself, but in the context in the article, it specifically refers to perceptions of wealth. In other words, people who have wealth seem to flaunt it. I'm not sure how you think StatsCan figures can disprove a perception. The next sentence talks about the crazy prices people pay for real estate here, suggesting that, if these people can afford kazillion dollar homes, they must be wealthy. From there it goes into talking about homelessness and displacement because of the Olympics. This isn't the cherry picking you're claiming, because it's not all that rosy a depiction. Maybe the "generally affluent" bit is misleading; I'll try and change it so it's clear that the point being made isn't about the people who can't afford SUVs. Maybe you could specify what exactly you think the median income is an indication of, because it's not self-evident. Facts don't speak for themselves; someone with one foot in a bucket of ice and the other in a bucket of boiling water is pretty comfortable according to statistics. Vancouver's a wealthy city, and the maldistribution of wealth doesn't change that.

Also note that this is a featured article that attracts a lot of editors and vandals. Edits are more likely to get reverted here than in other articles on technical grounds, which is probably what happened to yours (formatting of citations, for example, needs to be consistent with all the other citations). Also, the article is already quite long and piling on more info at some point begins to detract from the over-all quality even if it's all correct. Don't take it personally if other editors are protective of the article - it's not intended to discourage changes, but it is more important to suss out changes or new additions on the talk page (like this) to ensure they stick. Also, please sign your talk page posts with ~~~~. Cheers, bobanny 06:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of arms

Is it possible to get a larger image of the city's current coat of arms? The features and text of the current image are unrecognizable. I searched Vancouver's website but that seems to be the smallest size they have. -Enviroboy (Talk|Contribs) 18:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like this one's been removed too. Looking on the city's website, it's use is explicitly prohibited except by The Man, and it's doubtful that the Wiki copy-vio police are going to let it slip past in the future. It's not particularly attractive anyway, and I suggest we just leave it out. Anyone else? Bobanny 01:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, the thing to do would be to write the city and ask them to do a Wiki-drop of a fair-use version; I think their problem is the flag symbol; they use it like the Govt of Canada uses the 2/3 flag (maple leaf and one stripe only), as a logo (often, yuck, in black instead of red - where'd that come from?), and if it's on something it means it's from them. But the coat of arms proper should be public domain, as all coats of arms are - wherever you'd find it, but it must be somewhere online; I wonder if the Dogwood Herald or whatever he's called has a policy on it (the local guy in charge of heraldry and peerage/protocol issues connected with it, a lieutenant of the Whateveritis Herald in the UK, the Lion Royal or whatever he's called. That's the same dealy that's on the brow of the Burrard Bridge....and one solution would be to take a good square-on shot of that (middle of the night, when it's lit well, and there's no traffic) and use it instead ;-). Skookum1 02:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

That's what I thought, but their website is pretty explicit that the coat of arms is for the exclusive use of the city, and for non-commercial use only (which makes it non-wikipediable). It's registered with the College of Heralds in London, and noticing that London doesn't have a COA in its article, it's likely a restriction that applies across the empire, err, commonwealth (and different from copyright). (Maybe we should've had a revolution after all - sometimes American liberalism looks pretty good from up here). I'm not sure why Vancouver's being picked on though, maybe because it's an FA. Montreal has a COA, but instead of a normal licence, it has a special tag, which someone might want to explore if they want to pursue this. I'm also wondering where the original one we had came from. The city's website has a password-protected page where the COA can be downloaded from, but only low-rez versions elsewhere, so I'm wondering if maybe there was permission given at some point but not properly noted on Wikipedia. Bobanny 05:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The license is {{coatofarms}} but I'll have to find the place where it's explained, and what the restrictions that, in some countries, are irrespective of copyright as the generated text of this template says. But we're in the same country - so far - as Montreal, then if that licence works there, this is the same country and it should work here. The BC coat of arms isn't restricted in the same way is it? Canada's? Nope. So what's with Vancouver? I don't understand it, unless some manifestation of it constitutes a "legal seal", e.g. with all the bearers and the panoply, instead of just the escutcheon (shield). Heraldry, like the crests on "totemic" art around here, are yes in a certain way "owned" by their bearer; but they have always been featured as illustrations and of course are all over the genealogy sites. How else does the city coat of arms appear sometimes in news articles, sometimes in books and other publications, e.g. magazines? City permission, or some kind of public-domain reality that their reserved rights are in contravention of, perhaps; like the BC Archives pretense of owning the images outright, instead of the negatives and prints made off them only, as is the real case. Certainly worth inquiring at the city Information Services/Public Affairs department, I'd think...i.e. to see how other publications, esp. encyclopedias, are allowed to use it.Skookum1 06:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Clicking on the template-link goes to a somewhat different display than in the licensing section of the image page; could be because it's not on an image page and only the box warning is displayed, not the following, which I was referring to above:

This image shows a flag, a coat of arms, a seal or some other official insignia. The use of such symbols is restricted in many countries. These restrictions are independent of the copyright status.

The warning on the box seen by clicking on {{coatofarms}} is much more serious; there's probably a special section of the Copyright Act covering coats of arms, seals, crests and other things directly heraldic, as opposed to being merely logos; the reason would be grandfathered rights/obligations from imperial days. Heraldic law also applies in the US, by the way; all that doesn't there is the Peerage and the Knighthoods (even though they do love Duchesses and knighted rock stars and actors). But I'd think there's still special regs about heraldic usages re copyright; there is a difference between a seal and a coat of arms too, with usually the latter being part of the former (but not always); and the seal is in "impression", a stamp with legal potency dating back to the old days of signet rings and hot wax. The only heraldic usages I know of, prior to this, that are restricted are insignia of those in the royal iineages (not just UK) - it's a big no-no and very lese majeste to be someone other than the Duke of York if you're running around with the Duke of York's insignia on your Volkswagen, or your Silver Ghost for that matter. But even the royal emblems and even the royal standard people can produce in articles about them. So what gives in Canada anyway?Skookum1 06:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I restored the coat of arms. There was some hullabaloo about the coats of arms template a while ago so that now it redirects to the logo template(see the discussion here on the heraldry project). I initially thought the removal of the van coa had something to do with that, but then I found this showing that our German friend Voyager forgot to note the source of the image when he moved it to Wikimedia Commons, and that's why it was deleted. It should be okay now, and it's a better quality png version. Bobanny 18:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] City of Vancouver

I'm starting to think that a smaller, separate article for the City of Vancouver might help this one become less confusing (but keeping this as the general article for Vancouver). Any thoughts? bobanny 19:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fred Herzog

I don't think he should have a random sentence in the middle of the Culture section for this article. He is a famous enough photographer but there are many other famous Vancouverites that need not mention nor have major contributions to Vancouver Culture other than being from here and producing art. Mkdw^talk 18:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Any details need to be integrated into what's already there, not just random insertions. bobanny 21:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

And about Herzog in particular, this is just a first take on your issues here, but he's important to the culture of the city as being someone who has provided a major visual record of it, i.e. of its life, its culture, its street atmosphere and overall style and look. That "art documentary" is very much a Canadian medium somewhere between fine art and "historical news reporting" (to try to describe it...) makes this also part of the culture; the way his show is presented/constitutes an "art event", not a museum display in the historical-only sense, is a statement about the city's culture in its own right (as also the regular repeats of the Emily Carr shows at VAG).Skookum1 21:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought, in the long run and from what I remember of VanArchives publications on certain of them, he and other GVRD/Vancouver photographers, from Charles Gentile (he was originally in Vic and New West before Vanc was founded, most of his stuff is earlier I guess) and Leonard Frank etc on down to Herzog and Lincoln Clarkes who are of artistic note as well as historical/commercial chroniclers or note, might well at some time all have articles; there's another big-name art photographer here right now, but I'm drawing a blank; he's of the calibre of Neal Wedman (Neil Wedman?) and Attila Richard Lukacs but they're graphic artists, not photogs; I'd say Herzog's show and collection are worthy of a separate article, certainly, given their significance to the city's historical visual landscape/imagery. Ditto with some of the scenic/postcard photographers from the 1900s-1920s who had distinct styles (y'know the big pictures of the English Bay Bathhouse, scenics from around Stanley Park, hand-tinted etc). There's a difference between an art or documentary photographer and a journalistic or commercial one; but even some news/press photographers (have to think who) might warrant inclusion (can't actually think of anyone of note, not like in NY or other places...cartoonists we got, but not photographers....).Skookum1 21:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

My main concern is that there should be a link to Herzog from somewhere, as it is currently an orphan. We could of course link from the gallery, but that seems somewhat limited, and would mean that we should list pretty much all major exhibitors at that page as well. I think that Herzog's star is rising, and a link from the main Vancouver article is not out of line since he is directly engaged in chronicling the city's life and history. Peregrine981 21:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

to me personally especially important, because he documents a city and lifestyle I remember well but which doesn't exist anymore, and there are few other ways to represent that to people who live here now than to show them pictures of the way it used to be; likewise the Gilded Age before WWI which was different again. It would be wonderful if we could get Herzog or his curator to donate a couple of shots to Wikipedia; some might even be public domain already, or have been released in public-domain circumstances; are shots from gallery showings' promo packages public domain, i.e. in the way that brochures and posters and postcards are?Skookum1 21:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Just got the book "Fred Herzog: Vancouver Photographs" with a lot of background. I see a stub. I think he's worthy of that, as are in fact the others Skookum mentioned, at least. I also have a postcard with a photo of his on it(?)--Keefer4 | Talk 23:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Fred Herzog is a stub, well, his entry on wikipedia is anyway. I stuck him on some lists, so consider him adopted. I don't think his notability is in question, just that there was no attempt to fit him in with what's already in the Vancouver article. Just finding a place to link from isn't much of reason to stick him in here; there's a ton of notable Vancouver people not mentioned, and the ones that are are not necessarily the most notable ones. It would be far more appropriate to link him from the vag article, or better yet, start a Culture in Vancouver article as a parent article for the category of the same name. Culture is sorely lacking in Van articles, and the ones that do exist are mostly free floating stubs with nothing to tie them together in the Vancouver context. (Music of Vancouver is the exception). bobanny 00:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)