Talk:Vice President of the United States

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Vice President of the United States is part of WikiProject U.S. Congress, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to the United States Congress. You can help by editing this article.
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[edit] Substantive issues

[edit] Current Trends and Growth of the VPOTUS

Are there any experts out there on the history, especially recent history of the power of the office? My impression has been that the Vice-Presidency has grown very much in the past fifty years and while power of the office changes with each administration, the trend towards an increased role is very strong. The Clinton and Bush II presidencies being the most visible examples. I don't know much about this subject; but I think this should be discussed more clearly in the Modern Office section and linked to better in the growth of the office section. On a side-note; how should the VP residence be discussed? The VP lived in his own private residence until 1973 and moreless permanently resides in Number One Observatory Circle. http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/life/vpresidence.html --Ampersand 11:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can a two term President later become Vice President?

After reviewing the VP criteria and the Constitution (below) on Presidential term limits it appears that John Kerry could select Bill Clinton as VP and if something happened to Kerry, Clinton could serve out the term as President? Does anyone know if this could really occur legally?

Section 1.

No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.

Note that the Constitution bans anyone from being elected president more than twice; it does not prevent them being appointed president. I can't think of any examples of an ex-president subsequently serving as a VP, though. -- ChrisO 00:17, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

None happened, though Reagan did strongly consider Ford as a running mate, though it would not have invoked the rule. I thought that to be eligible for Vice-President you have to be eligible for President - or is it just the case of the same requirements being used rather than absolute wording? Timrollpickering 19:56, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

According to United States presidential line of succession, "3 USC 19(e) specifies that even the acting President must meet the Constitutional requirements for the office of President". So even if a two-term POTUS became Vice President, he could not be acting president under Amendment 25. Thus, the Speaker of the House of Representatives would be first in line, if the President were incapacitated or killed. - Plutor 18:40, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Amendment XII states that "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." - Luke stebbing 10:31, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But the amendment says "no person shall be elected president more than twice", not "no person may be president" or "no person may serve as president". so its not clear that this is constitutes eligibility to hold the office in respect to the 3 USC 19 restriction above.

Other times their primary role seems to be meeting heads of state or attending state funerals in other countries, at times when the administration wishes to demonstrate concern or support without having to actually send the President himself to do so.

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that this is a typical function of the ceremonial head of state in non-Presidential systems. Joestynes

I think that might be a bad idea, if it compares the two roles. The role of VP is light years from the role of a ceremonial head of state in parliamentary systems. In particular, the VP now enjoys a substantial amount of power in shaping national policy and defending the current administration. Revolver 22:42, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

The VP enjoys exactly as much power as the President lets him have.

Curious Reader: Though this doesn't answers the Can or Can't question, my observation is, why would a former President want to serve as Vice President? After all, once you've been the Top Bannana (President), why would ya wanna be Second Bannana? 22 October 2005.

[edit] Yes, Bill Clinton could be VP

Why? No wheres in the Constitution does it say A person whose has been elected President twice ,can never be appointed Vice President. Bill Clinton could be VP and should the President he serves (die, resign or be removed from Office), Clinton could become President & complete the term. What he can't do (22nd Amendment) is run for a Presidential term. 24 October 2005

No. The Twelfth Amendment states "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." Richard75 00:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

But the 22nd amendment says that "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice," it doesn't say "no person shall be President more than twice," so I don't think it's so clear that this constitutes an ineligbility to hold the office of President under the 12th amendment. Ddye 00:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The 22nd Amendment also says "and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once." So, in theory, President Clinton could be Vice-President, and then succeed to President, but could not serve longer than exactly two years.mweng 13:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

NO! Bill Clinton cannot be VP! He has held the office of president twice. He cannot run for VP; he cannot be appointed VP.

The 22nd Amendment only says that someone cannot be elected to the presidency under certain circumstances. It says nothing about whether someone can serve as president. So under the 22nd Amendment, Clinton is clearly eligible to succeed as president if he happens to be in the line of succession somewhere (Speaker, President pro tempore, Cabinet member). He couldn't run for reelection, but he could serve out the remainder of the term. The issue of whether he could be VP is dealt with by the 12th Amendment. That says that someone can't be Vice President if they're not eligible to be President. But Clinton is only ineligible to be elected president, not to be president, as we've seen. So he is probably eligible to be elected (or appointed) as Vice President, although the issue has not actually come up. Clear? john k 17:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

NO! He is not eligible to be President, ELECTED OR APPOINTED, because he has served two full terms. If one is not eligible to be elected President, one is not eligible to ACT AS or be APPOINTED AS President (or Vice President for that matter). The only way one can serve more than eight years is to succeed to the presidency FOR TWO YRS OR LESS, then get elected for two terms (consescutively or nonconsecutively). 75.179.5.126 07:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Clear?

[edit] Springboard to Presidency

I replaced

Since 1960, only three presidential elections, the 1980 election, 1996 election, and 2004 election, did not feature an incumbent or former Vice President as a major candidate. The election of 1968, provided the option of two men who had served as Vice President, Richard Nixon and Hubert Humphrey.

with

Of the 13 presidential elections from 1956 to 2004, 9 featured the incumbent President; the other 4 (1960, 1968, 1988, 2000) all featured the incumbent Vice President. Former Vice Presidents also ran, in 1984 (Walter Mondale), and in 1968 (Richard Nixon, against the incumbent Hubert Humphrey).

because the remaining cases (1964, 1972, 1976, 1992) were former Vice-Presidents running as incumbent Presidents. Their previous lesser job was not a feature of their campaigns. Joestynes 06:09, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vice Presidential Candidacy

"It is common for the Vice Presidential candidate to come from a different region of the country than the President or appeal to a slightly different ideological wing of the party." While not explicit, shouldn't there be a section which says explicitly that the VP cannot come from the same state as the president? I believe that's stated here:

"The Electors shall meet in their respective States and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves"

Which would preclude, for instance, the elector from texas voting for two people who inhabit texas? (for instance, if both Bush and Cheney legally inhabited Texas..)

--Daniel Tate 23:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to add such a sentence, since it is a valid point you make. In your example, the electors could not vote for two Texans. Residency requirements are so easy these days that it is not hard to change your state (as Cheney did in 2000). At the time of the constitution (and the 12th Amendment) such relocation was not as easy, and more people had a stronger allegiance to their state than to the newly formed nation. NoSeptember^{- 23:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] Specific Vice Presidents

[edit] Aaron Burr

What happened to the Aaron Burr page? It appears on "recent changes," with a note of what was added, but any attempt to get to it produces "Describe the new page here." 15 Feb 2002 Vicki Rosenzweig

[edit] Can Cheney make history?

Just something I've noticed. If Dick Cheney were to complete his second term of office (Jan.20, 2009), he & Al Gore would becomes the first Back to Back (45th & 46th) Vice Presidents of the USA to have served two complete terms. 21 October 2005

[edit] Article issues

[edit] "Dick" Cheney?

Does anyone else agree that the article's introduction should say "Richard" instead of "Dick?" I think that in formal matters it's always best to refer to individuals by their given names. --Impaciente 00:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chart help

I don't know how to edit charts. Can someone mention that Cheney served as Acting President during Bush's colonoscopy? user:J.J.

[edit] Images

A few days ago this page had about the same number of images it does now, but the image selection and placement seemed rather happenstance. The images did not fit the part of the text they were in very well, and the images were mostly dull ones of more obscure VP's. So I spent a lot of time, most of an evening, selecting and placing images to go with the narrative, and choosing more photogenic images where available.

So that's why I reverted an edit that removed most of the images in one blow. If you'd like to move things around more, swap for better images, even prune a couple, be bold. But please have a little more care before stripping away so many images. Jonathunder 05:37, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

The images don't add much value to the page and, on higher resolutions, are way overdone. While sometimes you may spend a lot of time formatting an article here, you have to sometimes admit that the format doesn't necessarily work. I'll remove half of them or so, then there isnt as much of an overload. Will also re-add the seal. --tomf688^(talk) 12:17, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

I don't really know how to work with images this well, but can somebody fix the layout of those two huge images across the top of the article? Thank you! --ParkerHiggins 08:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

What happened to the image of the Vice Presidential Seal? It was great as part of the article. GoodDay 17:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

They were moved to here. Heraldry has its place, but it needn't be so prominent. --Mark_Adler (t·c) 18:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC).

The article looks even better, great job. GoodDay 20:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Related templates

[edit] Vice Presidential trivia lists

This article has a good section on trivia, but there are about 25 Presidential trivia lists (articles), and some on Vice Presidents would be useful. In particular a VP mirror list to the List of U.S. Presidents by time in office article would be very useful. (At the bottom of that article you can find the list of the about 25 other Pres. trivia articles, some worthy of being mirrored for the VP also) NoSeptember ^{(talk) 22:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)}

Other Presidential lists I'd like to see mirrored for the VP are: List of unsuccessful U.S. Presidential candidates who received at least one electoral vote, List of U.S. Presidents by place of birth, List of U.S. Presidents by date of death. Anyone who would like to be bold in creating these, please do. NoSeptember ^{(talk) 22:57, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)}

I am in the process of composing this VP trivia page: User:NoSeptember/List of U.S. Vice Presidents by time in office NoSeptember ^{(talk) 13:15, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] Other

It appears that there has never been a band called "The Vice Presidents of the United States of America".

[edit] Never elected to office

Under "Vice Presidential Facts," Gerald Ford is listed as the only VP never elected to office. Surely Nelson Rockefeller belongs there too? I'm not adding it myself because it seems so glaringly obvious an omission that I feel like I'm missing something. --Jfruh 21:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV of opening line?

Is it really necessary to compare this job to a bucket of pee in the opening line? The guy who holds this job can usually waltz down across the street to the Oval Office if he pleases, so this seems to be an extremely negative and POV way to begin the article. I'd prefer the lead to be a tight explanation of the role and its position within the federal government. If someone doesn't change this VERY quickly, I will. Harr o5 10:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, Harro5. It is a very famous quote, but the lead para is not where it belongs. JackofOz 11:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The correct statement is "a warm bucket of SPIT"

Garner is supposed to have said "warm bucket of piss". However because the statement (particularly in th 1930') was offensive, the more polite "bucket of warm spit" was publicized. GoodDay 20:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple VP candidates?

In a number of elections in the last twenty-five years or so (or maybe more) a number of third party presidential candidates had different VP candidates on the ballot in different states. I'm not entirely sure why that is, perhaps some sort of ballot access issues. In the unlikely event that such a president were elected, how would the VP be chosen? Examples include several candidates of the Workers World Party, Socialist Workers Party, and Lenora Fulani of the New Alliance Party who in 1988 evidently had six VPs and Ralph Nader who in 1996 had at least four and in 2004 had three. Esquizombi 13:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The President and VP are technically elected on completely seperate ballots. In the event that no candidate received a majority of votes for VP (as might happen in the scenario you describe), the US Senate elects one from the top two vote-getters. Ddye 16:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second highest?

The article opens with:

Vice President of the United States is the second-highest executive official

Since they formally wield no power while the President is still in office, are they really any higher then the average citizen? I realize they're quite influential, but defining the job this way seems odd and unnecessary. It would be more accurate to just say that their job is to succeed the President, and discuss the other influence separately. --88.111.41.106 00:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

They do formally wield power--they are President of the Senate, can preside there, and can vote and break ties. They are second highest because they are next in line to the highest. Its not a measure of power (although they do have some) its a measure of where they fall in the line of power.mweng 03:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The senate thing is a separate ex officio role, so that doesn't count. The rest is exactly my point. "Second highest" can mean many different things, many of them misleading. I'm removing it. --Dtcdthingy 18:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 12th Ammendment

"It is, however, debated whether a former two-term president could be elected Vice President since the 22nd amendment doesn’t limit a president to serving two terms; it only prevents him from being elected to more than two terms. According to one interpretation a two term president could be elected to the vice-presidency and then serve another term in the presidency if the elected president died or was removed from office. The 22nd amendment only forbids election to, not service in, the presidency more than twice. In such a circumstance the two-term president turned vice president would still be elected to the presidency twice."

At the end of the 12th ammendment "but no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice President of the United States"

Needs to be fixed.

The "constitutionally ineligible" clause refers to citizenship and age. It's conceivable, and constitutionally permissable, for example a former two-term president could become president again via the vice-presidency, or even being speaker of the house, should both the president and vice-president leave office. In either case s/he would not be eliglble to be elected to the office. -- Yellowdesk 03:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes very strange

Footnotes 1 and 2 under the list of VPs looks to have been vandalized.

[edit] Fillmore/Tyler -- did they seek the presidency?

Two items under VP facts are questionable:

John Tyler became President when William Harrison died. Chose not to seek full term.
Millard Fillmore became President when Zachary Taylor died. Chose not to seek full term.

But

Chester A. Arthur became President when James Garfield was assassinated. Sought a full term, but was not re-nominated.

My understanding is that Fillmore did seek the Whig nomination in 1852. His bio article reads: "Some northern Whigs remained irreconcilable, refusing to forgive Fillmore for having signed the Fugitive Slave Act. They helped deprive him of the Presidential nomination in 1852", implying that he was at least interested in running.

Tyler's case is more complex: having been a latecomer to Whiggery, he was kicked out of the party soon after his ascension as President; in the 1844 election, he was serious enough about running for re-election that he arranged what he called a "National Democratic Tyler Convention" to nominate him for the office. By summer of that year, though, he had determined that his chances of re-election were negligable and dropped out of the race.

So, I guess the question is how you define "seek a full term." If it entails running in the general election, than neither Tyler nor Fillmore meet the criteria. But if Arthur's attempt to be nominated for president is worthy of mention, then so too is Fillmore's. Tyler's case is odder, but perhaps worthy of note for that very reason. --Jfruh (talk) 15:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What about Johnson? Didn't he seek the Democratic nomination in 1868? john k 16:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Fillmore & A. Johnson, should be included (seeking major party nomination), Tyler should not (didn't seek major party nomination). GoodDay 23:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure why major party nomination should be the criteria here. Tyler sought to be re-elected, for a time, anyway. The sources seem to think that his "National Democratic Tyler Convention", held in the same city and at the same time as the Democratic Convention, was in fact an attempt to convince the Democrats, who were having a hard time deciding on a nominee, to nominate Tyler. --Jfruh (talk) 03:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Tyler didn't seek Whig party nomination because he was run out of the party by infuriated Senators, Congressmen and other Whigs. He was on his own in establishing an electoral base. -- Yellowdesk 02:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Fillmore sought the Presidency in 1856 on the Know-Nothing ticket. He received the electoral votes from Maryland. Since Roosevelt's 1912 campaign is mentioned, so should Fillmore's 1856 campaign be. 20:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] March 4th & Presidential succession dates

Fixed dates in article, VP terms ended at Noon EST on March 4th. Furthermore upon the death, resignation or removal from office of a President, the VP automatically becomes President. GoodDay 22:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VP Impeachment Trial

It this event ever occurs, the president pro tempore would preside over the Impeachment Trial. GoodDay 19:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seal of the Vice President

Currently there are two seals shown in the article:

Are they just possible variations of the seal of the Vice president or is one of them not correct? Gugganij 18:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The second version is shown here. Gugganij 18:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe the photo of George Clinton is correct. :-)

[edit] George Clinton photo

I may be wrong, but I don't think the photo of George Clinton is the correct photo. :-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.0.141.220 (talk) 18:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

It's the correct photo. GoodDay 23:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] United States of Hypocrisy?

Looks like someone's been having too much fun vandalizing. I think I changed it all back to United States of America. Could someone ask for this page to be locked?

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