Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Archive 8

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 LOD Vandalism 2 Christopher Daniels 3 OVW & double gimmicks 4 WrestleMania 13 5 The brand versus the show 6 WrestleMania cleanup 7 List of Number of World Title Reigns has been Vandalized 8 Kane and (The?) Undertaker 9 Dr. Wagner, Jr. 10 John Zandig Bio 11 TNA Pay-Per-Views 12 XPW European Championship/Jonny Storm 13 Finisher/Signature move template 14 User watch 15 WWE Saturday Night's Main Event results 16 Scott Steiner 17 TNA Title History and Defense 18 "Frequent Target" Template? 19 Wrestling Arenas Category 20 WWE Juniors 21 Blue Panther Dilemma 22 Joe Seanoa 23 No. of World Title Reigns 24 Malik McMahon 25 Real name vs. ring/screen name 26 Article up for deletion 27 Spoiler Policy 28 Interpromotional match page 29 Images 30 Mickie Henson 31 Kayfabe disclaimer? 32 Kayfabe disclaimer change in wording 33 IWGP World Heavyweight Championship 34 James Reiher, Jr. (Deuce Shade) 35 First Blood Match page 36 Invasion timeline 37 Clean up = vandalism???? 38 Image copyright problems

LOD Vandalism

Hey guys you may or may have not noticed the persistant vandalism towards presentation in articles concerning LOD member Hawk and Droz, Christy Hemme and any articles including the Doomsday Device... from IP addresses 67.150.72.191 and 67.150.74.210 (who i guess are one and the same) there has been blatent warning given during revert edit summarys... which they must see as they constantly go and revert back... anyway can anyone else try to get through to them it would be much appriciated --- Paulley 23:33, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit of a stretch to call that vandalism isn't it? All I see them doing is moving the Doomsday Device to "Tag Team Moves". Bdve 15:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

well its more of the putting all the headings in capitals and adding POV statments... like "this is a legendary move"... i wouldnt have said anything if they didnt persist in reverting everyone elses edits back to theres --- Paulley

Got ya. Didn't notice the POV statements.Bdve 18:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

now hes is deleting large sections of the Road Warrior Hawk article while constantly add a super chokeslam to the throws section under the new I.P.67.150.65.40 --- Paulley 14:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

He's using sockpuppets now. Banning would be the next step I guess.

↪Lakes (Talk) 06:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

He is now adding threataning comments to his edits: see here --- Paulley 10:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I blocked that IP address indefinetly because of the threat, however. I think his IP is shared, so it may be lifted later on. If there's any more problems, please send them to WP:AIV so they can be taken care of quickly. --LBMixPro^{<Speak|on|it!>} 10:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Christopher Daniels

I have changed the Christopher Daniels page. It erroneously claimed the injury he sustained on his WCW Nitro match kept him out of wrestling for a year, when in fact he wrestled both on the independent_circuit circuit and in Japan.

OVW & double gimmicks

Would it bother anyone if we started noting people who are working both for WWE proper (Raw/SmackDown!) and OVW making a second section on their parallel careers & gimmicks? Paul Burchill for one would benefit from it.Bdve 18:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be worthwhile if it doesn't get too excessive. For example if the Spirit Squad are on both Raw and OVW TV every week, their pages could get really long from the storyline angles for each one. Boogeyman too, since he seems to be on both OVW and Smackdown each week. BronzeWarrior 18:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point I hadn't really thought of. I'll have to figure something out. Bdve 23:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

WrestleMania 13

There seem to be a whole lot of negative comments about The Undertaker on this page which don't represent a NPOV. Perhaps this article should be cleaned up? BronzeWarrior 09:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. I think I got them all and retained the one real noteworthy piece by moving it to WMXIV page.Bdve 17:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

MUCH better. Kudos! BronzeWarrior 18:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The brand versus the show

One thing I noticed is that Raw and SmackDown! have been used interchangeably to refer to both the brand and its flagship show. However, they are, on a technicality, not quite synonymous: the flagship show for the SmackDown! brand is Friday Night SmackDown! (even though it's on Thursday where I'm from), yet Velocity is a SmackDown! brand show and not a Friday Night SmackDown! brand show. It makes me wonder if we should have separate pages for the brand and the show. kelvSYC 04:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's enough of a difference between the shows and the "brands" bearing their name to justify the additional articles, especially given the recent trend of inter-show angles and such. Raw & Smackdown are technically still separate brands, but are now being treated more as merely separate TV shows. - Chadbryant 05:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

As for as I see, however, Wikipedia treats the shows as if they are synonymous with the brand, yet the brand is so much more than the show: after all, besides Monday Night Raw and Friday Night SmackDown!, there is still Raw magazine and SmackDown! magazine (which are not titled Monday Night Raw and Friday Night SmackDown!, last time I checked), and we still say that Heat is a Raw-brand show and Velocity is a SmackDown!-brand show, and not Heat being a Monday Night Raw-brand show and Velocity a Friday Night SmackDown!-brand show. And the announcers still say that Raw and SmackDown! presents WrestleMania 22 and not Monday Night Raw and Friday Night Smackdown! presents WrestleMania 22. A lot of sites have SmackDown! superstars and not Friday Night SmackDown! superstars, especially those who are on Velocity every week (however, we do say superstars of Friday Night SmackDown! for those who are on the main show...). Most of all, there are the Raw brand of video games and the SmackDown! brand of video games... kelvSYC 06:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with Chadbryant that the distinction is not a particularly important one. McPhail 16:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

WrestleMania cleanup

I've been reading through some of the WrestleMania pages just because they're there and I've noticed there's no real template to them. Some of them look horrible with every match subsectioned (without a ToC) making the words massive. Some have match results (x defeated y) and others have short recaps of the matches or at least a bit more information (a pinned b with a rollup). Thus I want to do some cleanup and bring these kinds of things in line with each other.

So is there a set template I should be using? I plan to drop the subsectioning, can't stand to look at that, but I welcome any other input before I actually begin. Do you like the recaps? Should those go? Things like that. Bdve 23:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The latter WrestleMania entries seem to have a better "template" to them than the earlier ones, which in some cases are results only. I've attempted to spruce up a few here and there by adding a few finishers and listing managers in important matches and linking their wiki entries, but I agree they could use a total overhaul. I'm going to propose that WM matches should be listed (1.) In the order they occured (2.) With all participants including managers and valets and (3.) By finish including where appropriate the finishing move (unless of course a DQ or draw). BronzeWarrior 09:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been working on unifying the formats for the past month or two for the articles and adapting the format used in the TNA pay-per-view pages over there. While I was hoping someone could expand with the match descriptions like the later ones, I see what you mean by the earlier ones looking a bit treadful (IV comes to mind). Anyway, I suppose we could work out a better format. For those wondering here is is the current format I tried to do:

===[[Match stip]] for the [[Championship name]]: [[Person 1]] (w/[[Manager 1]]) (c) vs. [[Person 2]]===

Brief description of results

* Any intermission interview/angle

An alternative format I might suggest if you want to get rid of the subsections

*'''[[Match stip]] for the [[Championship name]]: [[Person 1]] (w/[[Manager 1]]) (c) vs. [[Person 2]]'''

**Brief description of results

** ''Any intermission interview/angle''

Anyway, at least somebody agrees that the whole set of articles need to be in sync with each other. --Oakster 20:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The Manual of Style stipulates that section headers should not contain wikilinks, so that particular layout isn't really appropriate. McPhail 21:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

That was one of my problems with the originals also. I like the second idea though. I'm thinking something along the lines of:

[[challenger 1]] V [[person 2]] (special stips) (titles)

description of finish

Bdve 23:26, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I did WM1. Before I continue I want to make sure no one hates it. I haven't seen WM1 in a while so I had no way to put in any between match antics. Bdve 22:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the headings a little bit as it didn't stand out as much as it needed to be but overall it looks great now, thanks. --Oakster 08:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I just want everyone (who cares) to know that I haven't forgotten about this and fully intend to do it but I've been going through some life stuff that has prevented me from watching 3 hour PPVs (a lot need watching since the recaps here are bare bones). I should be able to restart next week or so. Bdve 17:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

List of Number of World Title Reigns has been Vandalized

This page has been vandalized alot can some one got there and fix it (It says Hogan has been a World Heavywieght Champion (WWE) wich is not the case) plus many other mistakes I can't since I'm not good with wiki tables BionicWilliam 02:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm more boggled by the fact it lists Chris Candido as an NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Don't get me wrong I like him a lot (R.I.P.) but that still just blows my mind. Anyway the Hogan entry didn't have any glaring errors to me so it must have been fixed. It even correctly listed his two AWA reigns which were only recently recognized. BronzeWarrior 09:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Candido was crowned NWA World champion after Shane Douglas threw the belt down in the infamous "they can all kiss my ass" shoot. He held it for a few months before dropping it to Dan Severn. - Chadbryant 09:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That explains. I thought the NWA title had been vacated by his actions, I didn't realize they crowned an alternate champion or that Candido was their choice. I'm surprised nobody made note of the fact he was a former world champion when he passed away - that's a real shame. BronzeWarrior 01:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Kane and (The?) Undertaker

I've done some cleanup work on Glen Jacobs, and the page would no doubt benefit from the scrutiny of some other editors. I also think we need to move Mark Calaway to either Undertaker (wrestler) or The Undertaker as soon as possible, but we need to decide whether or not his name is prefixed by "The". McPhail 23:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Undertaker. According to WWE anyways - http://www.wwe.com/superstars/smackdown/undertaker/profile/ --Anthony 00:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm more inclined to go for The Undertaker as it has the advantage of not having the parenthesis. Plus if you notice his WWE.com bio, the article flip-flops between "Undertaker" and "The Undertaker". --Oakster 09:33, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Out of the possibilities mentioned, I'd have to agree with Oakster on "The Undertaker". "Undertaker" just sounds awkward. tv316 14:14, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

If it has to be moved, The Undertaker works best. - Chadbryant 14:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests that article names avoid using "The" whenever possible. Check out Bogeyman (not the professional wrestler), which is often prefixed by "The", but not the article name. I'd support a move to "Undertaker (wrestler)" --Jtalledo (talk) 17:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Check the archives, this discussion on naming conventions has been had 100 times. Bdve 19:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not a question of convention, it's a question of which form Calaway has used more frequently. I would opt for The Undertaker as (a) this was the form used until recently; I think WWE removed the "The" from his name within the last year, and (b) it will allow far, far more direct linking. McPhail 19:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems like the convention of addng "The" in front of the gimmick name simply came about as a result of the way he was always introduced by Howard Finkel. From Death Valley, weighing in at blah blah blah, THEEEEEEE UNDER-TAY-KAHHHHHHH!!! Thus it's likely in a kayfabe sense his name has been Undertaker all along, and 'The' can be considered at worst unnecessary and at best a form of formal clarification; i.e. there are plenty of real-life undertakers/morticians in the world, but this is The Undertaker. If it's going to be moved at all "Undertaker (wrestler)" would be the best choice. BronzeWarrior 20:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this helps at all, but the video games tended to refer to him as "Undertaker" in his biker gimmick, and "The Undertaker" in his deadman gimmick. --HBK|Talk 15:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The Undertaker definitely sounds better. According to Wikipedia naming conventions,

If a word without a definite article would have a general meaning, while the same word has a specific and identifiable meaning, understood by all, if adding the article, and if there is justification to have separate articles for both meanings, the specific meaning can be explained on a separate page, with a page title including the article.

This would seem to support "The Undertaker" over "Undertaker (wrestler)" as well. --Jtalledo (talk) 13:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Wagner, Jr.

I thought a page for the popular wrestler (the reactions he gets when I watch CMLL each week are HUGE) Dr. Wagner, Jr. was long overdue, so I took a stab at it. Unfortunately a lot of the available information about him in english is conflicting or confusing. I gave up trying to decide whether he actually debuted April 7 or April 27 since different websites asserted it as fact, and none had an up-to-date list of titles he held through 2006 so I can only assume he's been trios champion four times and not in fact more often than that, let alone any other belts he's held. The one thing I felt almost absolutely sure about in the whole thing was his background in relation to his father and brother, but curiously no site I could find lists his full real name. If anybody else can expand, correct, or fill in missing information I would be grateful for the assistance. BronzeWarrior 11:20, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Try the gimmick databank. It's a German website, but tends to be accurate. McPhail 17:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, now there's a helpful website! Muchas gracias! BronzeWarrior 20:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

When in doubt, go with Luchawiki, those guys are for more reliable than anyone else when it comes to Lucha. The articles needs some work but it's a good starting point. And remember Mexico has states.--Darren Jowalsen 03:38, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Thanks for the tips! BronzeWarrior 09:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

John Zandig Bio

I've never seen such an atrociously awful article as the one I just fixed up for John Zandig, the guy who happens to own and wrestle in CZW (Combat Zone Wrestling). I'm willing to bet other biographies for these "backwater" hardcore wrestlers are of similarly poor quality.

It also becomes important at some point to measure whether or not certain wrestlers and promotions are important enough to have a bio. I'm not saying John Zandig in particular isn't a moderately important wrestling figure, as most wrestling enthusiasts are at least aware of CZW, but Wikipedia has a few wrestlers thus far that it can say virtually nothing about, because they're so small-time and undistinguished that they aren't really people meriting encyclopedic note. Most of the CZW roster fits this description.

In any event, Zandig's article needs work from someone who knows about him, as well as help from an editor who has time to relieve it of its incredible sloppiness. --Pathogen 09:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep. I don't think we've come up with a decent criteria for inclusion yet. We should do that real soon, or Wikipedia will be flooded with wrestlers that really shouldn't have articles. --Jtalledo (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

On that note i have been managing the edits of User:Samgibbs, who conciders himself the #1 fan of a small newly opened promototion in the UK called Real Quality Wrestling... i have met the 13yrold Mr Gibbs on a few forums were i informed him of wikipedia (big mistake i think sometimes) anyway i have been manging his mostly poor edits. I realised i didnt really wanna have to keep following his edits all the time so i tried contacting him in a varity of ways to help him write better articles but with little to no reponce; see Len Davies article's talk page for instance. He is mostly harmless but he has began to add lower indy wrestlers that havent even made much impact in UK wrestling. --- Paulley 14:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

TNA Pay-Per-Views

This is something that is really starting to get on my nerves. Why is it that TNA PPV results have a section for each match while WWE PPVs only get one subheading for all results? My first proposition is to do a big cleanup of this and turn them into one simple dot-pointed section with the results.
The other thing that is annoying me is the fact TNA PPVs get their own individual page each. Sure, it's reasonable to have individual pages for Bound For Glory and Slammiversary similar to that of WrestleMania and SummerSlam but PPVs like Against All Odds can be compiled into one article surely. That's my second proposition. Normy 09:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The TNA recaps tend to be very comprehensive. Your energy would be better spent expanding the WWE, WCW, ECW and AAA show articles, which in many cases have nothing more than results. Making pages shorter and less detailed is not productive. McPhail 19:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

So the idea of the final product is to have an individual page for each event that has happened? Sounds reasonable enough. Normy 09:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

While some PPV's might seem relatively minor in the grand scheme of wrestling over the decades (and arguably are) the fact that promotions build up all their programming for the sole purpose of selling them to us month to month is probably enough to warrant a page for each, and the fact they put out DVD's for each one arguably says they consider them important too - at least from a profit making point of view. So I'd say a page for each event is reasonable - the level of detail necessary on those pages can of course be argued. BronzeWarrior 05:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

XPW European Championship/Jonny Storm

i woke up to day to find someone has put a "propose for deletion" tag on th XPW European Championship article... why is a well written article concerning a title and it use as a gimmick for Jonny Storm proposed for deletion, while pointless, unnoteworthy, badly made title articles like all of International Catch Wrestling Alliance titles are being left alone?????????? --- Paulley 11:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

oh and on the subject of Jonny Storm there has been attemps to remove all reference to his real name Jonathan Whitcombe (what the article is listed under), because thats not the name he uses in public... obviously i reverted the attempt but i understand where she is comming from so i propose that i move the article from Jonathan Whitcombe -> Jonny Storm -- Paulley

Finisher/Signature move template

i think that shomeone should make template for finishers,with a picture in it,that looks professional and visually appealing at the same time,what do you guys think?

User watch

User:Becky-RE-fan and User:Ainsleybrooks appear to have targeted the Debra Marshall article, and are engaging in activities such as adding pictures falsely labelled as their own property to articles and adding non-factual rumours. It's a ongoing problem, so scrutiny would be appreciated. McPhail 22:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• User:Jonathan Burgess has been creating a large amount of below par ROH wrestler pages (i would say article but ost of it is just one line info) these include:

Deranged (wrestler)

Adam Brower

Cheech (wrestler)

Salvatore Rinauro

Slugger (wrestler)

Da Hit Squad

The Carnage Crew

Masada (wrestler)

The Ring Crew Express

Paulley 12:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Those could all use the "this article is a stub" brackets, but I didn't opt to add it since I imagine some if not many will be deleted or heavily-rewritten in short order anyway. If more than a few days go by and they're still in bad shape, I may stub a bunch and rewrite one or two. I've got three new ROH DVD's coming in the mail anyway so I'm already somewhat inclined. BronzeWarrior 12:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, i would go through myself but i have been concentrating my efforts on british wrestling at the moment.. so if any british wrestler stubs pop up please inform me --- Paulley 13:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if you guys keep a watch on 216.83.121.194. The guy tries to add stuff like fake theme songs on WWE pay-per-view pages. I also suspect he goes under the username of Krabs502 just by the similar edits the two make. --Oakster 17:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

MgHoneyBee (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) has been making suspect edits to various wrestler articles. I reverted the obvious ones, but am unsure if the rest of them are full of false information, as I know nothing about the other wrestlers he edits. Can you guys please take a look through his contrib history and verify the info? Thanks. tv316 06:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

WWE Saturday Night's Main Event results

I've been wondering considering the fact that it's only a week away, if it's right to restore the WWE Saturday Night's Main Event results page? While we agreed previously that we really didn't want to go into endless results pages, S.N.M.E. is more of a non-pay-per-view supercard compared to such shows as HEAT and Velocity. Plus with a card set up on the main article, I'm slightly worried over the fact somebody will add results to the article right after the show which I don't think we really want. --Oakster 18:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been bold and restored the article. Hope you guys are alright with this. --Oakster 10:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Yea, it was a good idea. I also went through and basically redid the SNME page mainly to remove all the unneeded gumf on there --- Paulley 16:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

We've got the Clash of the Champions results on Wikipeida which is similar to SNME in context so yeah I htink they should be restored. Normy 08:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Scott Steiner

Recent browsing of the Scott Steiner page has shown that there is no record of his history in any promotion prior to ECW, it's confounding because I remember reading not to long ago and having it noted that he was at least in the WWE prior to '95. - billz015

Scott and Rick Steiner had a +very+ brief WWF run as a tag team before jumping to WCW. I think they appeared at only one WrestleMania. That was Scott's only run with the company before being brought in as a Triple H opponent in the 21st century. BronzeWarrior 09:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

TNA Title History and Defense

Hi, I just signed up because I am very interested in re-working the Title History pages for TNA Wrestling, both to change the format to a more easily-readable table like the WWE title histories and I would also like to include complete information about sucessful title defenses. I already have all the information, just need to convert it to a WikiTable. However, one problem is that I can only do this for the NWA World title and the NWA World Tag Team titles for while they were under the auspices of TNA. Would I have to create a seperate entry for this information? What way should I go about doing this without stepping on the toes of those of you that already work on these pages?

If you are going to do a project on the TNA version of the NWA World Tag Team Championship, it would need its own article, titled NWA World Tag Team Championship (TNA version). I recently added articles for the other versions of the NWA World tag title (Mid-Atlantic/WCW, San Francisco, etc.), and NWA World Tag Team Championship has thus evolved more into a disambiguation page. - Chadbryant 19:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually TNA has a 10 year license on both the NWA World Title and the NWA Tag Team Titles, so I don't think you need seperate entries. They may nor promote themselves as being under the NWA banner any more but the belts are exactly the same as is the lineage. BronzeWarrior 07:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There have been multiple versions of the NWA World Tag Team Championship - TNA uses a distinct version, thus, any additions to Wikipedia concerning the TNA version should be placed in its own article. - Chadbryant 20:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The National Wrestling Alliance officially sanctions TNA's usage of their belts and counts it as their own lineage. You can check out nwawrestling.com for confirmation. If the NWA considers the WHT and WTT title histories to be the same as their own, who are we to try to separate them? 209.184.165.20 19:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not purposefully trying to be dense Chad, but I don't get the distinction. TNA's world tag team titles are the official NWA World Tag Team Titles. They are licensed from NWA and therefore I'm not sure how they are a "distinct version" different from previous ones. Whoever held NWA's official world tag titles before TNA existed is now a former TNA world tag team champion by extension and vice versa because the lineage is 100% the same even if the design has undergone minor cosmetic alteration. Cena is still the WWE Champion even though he changed the title to a spinner, and anybody who held the belt before him is a former champion of "that belt" whether they like the spinner look or not. BronzeWarrior 08:24, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There have been multiple versions of the NWA World Tag Team Championship - several of these regional versions existed at the same time (most notably the Mid Atlantic, Detroit, & San Francisco versions). They all have distinct and separate lineages. The current version used by TNA was created in 1992. - Chadbryant 13:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

TNA is currently using the OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED NWA World Tag Team Titles. Its not like in the early 90's where there was no such official belt and everyone laid claim to having the WORLD tag titles and the NWA didn't discriminate. 209.184.165.20 19:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"Frequent Target" Template?

I am proposing a "frequent target" template for use on the talk pages of various PW articles that seem to increase in size on daily basis. The template would read something like this:

This article is a frequent target for unregistered or new editors to add a week-by-week synopsis of kayfabe events, unconfirmed information, rumors, or other content irrelevant to an encyclopedic article. More experienced good-faith editors should watch for superfluous additions to this article that will only serve to make the article larger and harder to edit for style, clarity, and grammar.

Triple H, Kurt Angle, Mark Calaway, Randy Orton, & WrestleMania 22 would be leading candidates for such a template. Thoughts? - Chadbryant 20:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If it is that irrelevant, revert it and call it vandalism. kelvSYC 20:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki editors are implored to "assume good faith" - tt's easier to assume that most of the superfluous content is from markish people editing anonymously or with newer accounts to insert non-encyclopedic content because they don't know any better, than to assume that it's flagrant vandalism. - Chadbryant 20:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. I'd like there to be a corresponding category as well so all such articles could be listed in one place. --Jtalledo (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I have created {{PW-FrequentTarget}}. If anyone feels that it can be worded better, please let me know. - Chadbryant 23:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this problem, and I'm proposing that at the end of the month (or even two, three times a month), we condense the week by week recaps left by anons, into one small paragraph for the month. Then, after enough time has passed, or the storyline ends, we condense those monthly paragraphs into one paragraph for a storylines recap. Just look at any wrestler's article and see his storyline events before 2004. It's quick and to the point and progresses the wrestler's tenure in the company.

It's not the best, but it's against Wikipedia policy to block anons from editing the page when it hasn't been vandalized. And if they can still edit, they'll continue to add it in. You can tell one of them not to, but the next one won't read the edit history or the talk page, anyways. I feel that the best way to combat this problem without clogging up the article history with revert wars, would be to do timed condensations. tv316 19:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Wrestling Arenas Category

One should be made to reflect those arenas that have been sites of major wrestling events. MSG, Cricket Arena, Skydome, and so on come to mind. WillC 21:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a good idea, but what would be considered memorable sites? Some of the sites in the Legends of Wrestling game are obvious, as well as sites like the Hammerstein Ballroom, Viking Hall, etc., but what about places like the Astrodome? It was the home of WrestleMania X-7 and the largest-crowd for WCW Nitro ever, but would it be considered a memorable wrestling arena? 209.184.165.20 20:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

WWE Juniors

Is this valid or just a fake article? To my Knowlege there is no such thing as WWE Juniors. I think it should be deleted but I don't know how to request deletion. BionicWilliam 02:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no such thing. It's bogus. I'll list it for speedy. tv316 22:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

They were the midget division.....WillC 23:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The article had nothing to do with the "midgets" on Smackdown!. - Chadbryant 00:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Blue Panther Dilemma

An anonymous user created a page for a music producer/filmmaker named "The Blue Panther" and another editor moved it to "Blue Panther." All the pages that linked to "Blue Panther" referred to the wrestler so I moved the article about the music producer back to "The Blue Panther" since all the pages that link "The Blue Panther" referred to the producer and the article itself always referred to her as "The Blue Panther." After adding a disambiguation notice at the top of the Blue Panther page, I thought any confusion would be gone but the article has been repeatedly blanked and replaced with a redirect to The "Blue Panther" or simply copied the content of the "The Blue Panther" and pasted it over. On the talk page, I tried to explain my actions but User:far2steep insists that it should be a redirect despite the fact that 13 pages (not counting non-articles and the disambiguation) link to "Blue Panther" and refer to the wrestler, none refer to the producer (only six articles refer to "The Blue Panther", for your information). I doubt that my last comment will be any resolution and this person has called me a "child" and threatened legal action against me. What should I do?--Darren Jowalsen 20:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The website linked to in the "The Blue Panther" article identities the person in question as "Blue Panther", not "The Blue Panther". Perhaps The Blue Panther could redirect to Blue Panther, which in turn could disambiguate between Blue Panther (wrestler) and Blue Panther (music personality)? McPhail 21:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd hate to do it, but if it will end this madness, I'll do it.--Darren Jowalsen 21:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Joe Seanoa

User:ContagiousTruth has moved Samoa Joe back to Joe Seanoa, with the reason; "Samoa Joe is a character, Joe Seona is the real name of person the article is about...". I myself am not really worried either way but i thought id bring it to your attention --- Paulley 19:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the move should be reverted based on WP:NC - "Samoa Joe" is the most recognizable name for the person, and so far, he has only wrestled (in any notable capacity) under that character. I'd keep the move if, say, he writes a biography under his real name, or his ring name is really close to his real name (ie. if he starts calling himself "Samoa Joe Seanoa" or something like that). kelvSYC 21:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I moved it back. For the most part, wrestlers should be under their ring name unless their ring name changes a lot. This is supported by virtually every naming convention policy Wikipedia has, and also enables more direct linking. McPhail 22:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I still believe that wrestlers should be listed under their real names with their ring names redirecting to the article. The articles are about the person and all of their characters, not just one. For example, a wrestler like Kevin Nash would have Oz, Vinnie Vegas, and Deisel all redirecting to his Nash page, which will give you the entire career of Nash. I think this is most pressing in the case of Steve Borden. This guy owns the trademark to the name Sting, yet his article page is "Sting (wrestler)". It makes no sense. 209.184.165.20 19:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"Sting (wrestler)" Was chosen there for the reason of Sting the musical artist also needing to have an article. Darryl Hamlin 08:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No. of World Title Reigns

Recently, someone changed the page to say Hogan held the WCW international title 6 times, which as far I remember was not the case. The title was unified w/ the WCW title in '94 therefore it was the WCW title. So how is it that Hogan held the title 6 times? -- billz015

You're correct. I've just made the change right now. --Oakster 00:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Malik McMahon

Malik McMahon has taken it upon his or herself to add mention of a character by name of "Malik McMahon" to every McMahon family article. I've reverted the edits up to 17:48 GMT, but he/she might try and re-insert them, so please be vigilant if you can spare a minute. McPhail 17:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This guy may need to be banned. Put "Malik McMahon" into google and this is just the latest instance of this stuff on the web. Good on him for including the "marrying Trish Stratus" thing though. Bdve 18:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I find it interesting that he claims he's 15 year old but has feuded with The Undertaker among others. Someone is trying to put their own E-fed character into WWE storylines, I'm guessing --NightShade 08:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Real name vs. ring/screen name

I have a problem, and I dunno if this was discussed before, but here it is:

I have been wondering why are some of wrestler's articles are in their real name, when Wikipedia's naming standards state that the most used name (like the ring name) will be used? Does is violate Wikipedia policies?User:Howard the Duck | talk, 04:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no agreed upon standard. If a wrestler changes their ring name a lot, then having the article at their real name is a compromise. Also, articles such as Glen Jacobs and Amy Dumas would have to be moved to Kane (wrestler) and Lita (wrestler), which looks a bit untidy. In general, though, I would agree that wrestler articles should be at their ring names if they have used that name for a sustained period of time and do not appear likely to change it. McPhail 15:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) it was decided to use real names for the actual page heading and title with liberal use of redirects to make wiki linking easier. Bdve 16:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The standard convention is as follows, IIRC:

• If a wrestler currently wrestles by their real name or some modified spelling, we use it. (eg. Mick Foley, David Bautista)
• The above also applies if they have legally changed their name to the name of their best known ring name (eg. Dallas Page, The Ultimate Warrior)
• Otherwise, we use the best known ring name. (eg. Ricky Steamboat, Triple H, Samoa Joe)
• We revert to the real name if wrestlers are equally notable under several ring names (eg. Fred Ottoman, Paul Wight).
• If a wrestler "goes mainstream", we use the name adopted in the mainstream (eg. Hulk Hogan, The Rock)

This is the best compromise between WP:NC, following kayfabe, while having the ability to selectively expose the parts of the business as necessary.

The major debate is on persons such as Amy Dumas or Adam Copeland, where they have best known by a ring name, but have done works under their real name (eg. Lita: It Just Feels Right, Adam Copeland on Edge). Another major debate is on persons such as Monty Sopp, who is known under several notable ring names but whose real name is unfamiliar to the casual fan. kelvSYC 18:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Moving Sopp to Billy Gunn would be ideal, but it seems a bit ridiculous to have his article at a title that he can no longer use to describe himself due to trademarks. The same applies to a lot of WWE employees - if they leave the company, they lose their names. McPhail 19:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion it makes a lot more sense to name articles after the wrestler's real names and have their various ring-names re-direct to them. This takes care of the problems of multiple ring names, when/if they lose their ring name, and the subjective "most well known name." This also makes them all unified, i.e - some wrestlers use their real names. If we listed all wrestlers as their real names, they would all be unified because they ALL have real names, but do not ALL have stage names. --Naha|^(talk) 01:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually several wrestlers prefer to keep their real name a secret, and some have succeeded in that. (Eg. B.J. Whitmer and Delirious). IMHO the current method of naming pages is just fine.

↪Lakes (Talk) 11:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes there is no reasonable choice but to list a wrestler by their real name. I couldn't create a page for Messiah since that's widely recognized as a religious term and already Wikified, so I had to use his real name William Welch instead. BronzeWarrior 23:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not the case for most wrestlers. For the wrestlers where this is the case, obviously they would have to be listed by their ring name due to a lack of any alternative. I still hold that it is best to use real names whenever possible, redirecting any stage names to the main article where the real name is used. --Naha|^(talk) 22:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

If it is that important, why don't you use Messiah (wrestler) instead? kelvSYC 18:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Article up for deletion

List of WWE pay-per-view events has been nominated for deletion over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of WWE pay-per-view events. tv316 05:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• I seriously warn against it, as I know I have looked to this page on countless occasions to know what's coming up, and have printed copy as quick reference - I don't think it should be deleted. Kingfisherswift 18:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks like deletion was shot down. I was quite surprised so many people wrote "as per BronzeWarrior" and to that I can only say "heh - cool" and thanks. :) BronzeWarrior 09:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler Policy

Could we get the spoiler policy listed on the main project page? As I understand it, you aren't supposed to list the results of tapings if the show hasn't aired on US TV. Killswitch Engage is insisting (see here) that it is his right to list the results since the show has already aired in Canada. I just think it would be good to have an official listing of this policy to point to. Eenu (talk) 23:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Interpromotional match page

I wanted to get your opinions on the Interpromotional match page that was just made. Do you guys think that it can be expanded on and be made into a useful article, or is it hopeless and a prime candidate for deletion? tv316 05:54, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's worth saving, as the term "interpromotional match" to me refers more to a match between two distinct promotions rather than a match between Raw and SD. WWE Brand Extension should cover most of what we need. kelvSYC 07:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Images

I feel one of the projects goals should be to get a free, useable image of every mainstream wrestler, as there are still a few lacking some. (Vampiro and Scott Steiner, for example).Kingfisherswift 18:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Mickie Henson

According to his WWE.com profile, his name is spelled Mickie Henson so I haved moved his profile to that name. I have also redirected Mickey Henson, Mickey Hensen, and Mickie Hensen to that location. --JFred 19:39, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Kayfabe disclaimer?

Template:Kayfabe disclaimer

Whats up with this? I found it on the Glen Jacobs article just now. Is it really needed? Most/many articles explain within the body of the article when they are referring to kayfabe or storyline/plot events. And why would it randomly be on that article and not all others? Not that I want it to appear on other articles ...its just so ...random. I don't think we should use it. --Naha|^(talk) 20:27, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

See this for the reasoning. --Oakster 22:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Either we add the tag to articles with any ambiguity as to what is real and what is staged, or we rewrite every article to read "X was booked to defeat Y for the Z Championship" and "X was booked to feud with Y". The former is a simple task; the latter requires overhauling every single professional wrestling article on Wikipedia. Your choice. McPhail 23:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

No, those are not the only choices. Plenty of articles just simply state in the body of the article when they are citing kayfabe. I see nothing wrong with that, and it looks much more tidy as well. The less template messages the better. They do nothing but clutter the article space. I especially see no reason to add that tag to articles of wrestlers who have worked no where but WWF/WWE because it has been publicty stated by the company that the wrestling there is staged.--Naha|^(talk) 05:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, taking McPhail's quote from the above linked archive "I actually think the template is a good idea. Virtually every professional wrestling article tends to blend fact and fiction. McPhail" - no kidding! Because the majority of the articles are about wrestlers who work for promotions that make money from selling storylines. I'm aware there is a world of wrestling outside WWE, but storyline is what draws people in by the masses to that franchise and others like it - and those are the articles you would have this tag on. The WWE purposely mixes fact and fiction and we model that in the articles. There is no need to state every result of every match was predetermined, its a given.--Naha|^(talk) 05:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Clarity is more important than tidiness. WWE (not "the WWE") may "blend fact and fiction", but Wikipedia does not. If we are writing the articles as though the events described were real, then we must explicitly state at the outset that this is the case, not assume that the reader will realise that the events described are, implicitly, staged. The alternative is to rewrite the articles like this. McPhail 14:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The way most articles are now, without any prior knowlege about how pro wrestling works and (worse) what's currently going on in the storylines (especially the Lita/Edge situation), it may be difficult to know the difference between what's worked and what's real. In that case the article should tell so. Having a template up there makes it seem that something's wrong with the article. And it does. So I'll boldy edit the template to add the info at {{fiction}}. --LBMixPro^{<Speak|on|it!>} 21:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I am all for pointing out kayfabe, but I believe it should continue to be noted by the methods that are aready in place, internally within the article. --Naha|^(talk) 21:04, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The latter is preferable - in not so many words, thats what several of the articles already do to a point. I still don't think it is necessary. The same header might as well be plastered on every movie/film article. --Naha|^(talk) 17:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

But films do not pretend, on some level, to be real, and for all that WWE has admitted that wrestling is fake, they still throw "worked shoots" out every so often. Moreover, most films don't have copious numbers of adolescents updating them on a weekly basis with no concern for distinguishing between reality and fantasy. The template has to be easily visible; integrating the disclaimer into the body text means that a casual reader could miss it. McPhail 22:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The importance on which you are placing making sure everyone knows (most) professional wrestling is fake is out of proportion. This is information that is best suited for the article Professional wrestling. And yes, most films do pretend, on every level, to be real. I'm also loathingly aware of all the fanboy teens that feel the need to update every article with the latest play-by-play of their favorite superstar, but those updates are all too often so poorly worded, or not even needed/appropriate at all, that they get edited out quickly anyway. --Naha|^(talk) 01:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

"The importance on which you are placing making sure everyone knows (most) professional wrestling is fake is out of proportion" - I don't know if it is. Konnan was recently named a good article, but the editor who granted the distinction noted that the article "can still be improved by more clearly separating reality from fiction". If we are to elevate any articles to featured article status, the distinction needs to be made. McPhail 15:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes ...according to that person, and you. Its just an opinion, as is my stance. --Naha|^(talk) 20:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Kayfabe disclaimer change in wording

I see it has been updated. In the conversation above, it seemed like McPhail was proposing the disclaimer be placed in every Prowrestling article more or less ..and be placed there indefinitely because the articles will always dipict kayfabe events.

But now it includes an additional clean up section? What will you do when it has been sufficently cleaned up but still feel the article needs a notice at the top so that readers don't get "confused between fact and fiction"? If you are determined on using the kayfabe disclaimer, the cleanup part should be its own seperate template. --Naha|^(talk) 01:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with that. McPhail 13:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

IWGP World Heavyweight Championship

The Title History excludes Hulk Hogan, but List of Number of World Title Reigns and Hogan Article states Hogan won the belt/was the first Champion BionicWilliam 23:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Hogan didn't win the title, it's known fact, nor was he a 7-time WCW champion. His seventh title reign (where he got screwed over by Russo) didn't officially count towards the tally. Normy 07:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Why doesn't it count? He entered the ring, pinned Jarrett, and left with the belt... he was stripped AFTER the match... Clint 16:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

NJPW only recognizes champions since 1987 even though the belt existed since 1983. It would probably be good to include the non recognized reigns as well in the championship article, of course with explanations.

↪Lakes (Talk) 15:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

James Reiher, Jr. (Deuce Shade)

I'm confused, what's with the blurb that was added to the beginning of this article? From what I understand, he is Jimmy Snuka's adopted son. Also, Snuka (Sr.) is on here under Jimmy Snuka, not his real name of James Reiher, So I think Jr.'s profile should be moved to Jimmy Snuka, Jr. since that's what he is better known as. --JFred 21:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I would support that. I think the guy requesting the move means that his surname isn't actually "Reiher", despite Snuka having adopted him. McPhail 23:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've moved the page to Jimmy Snuka, Jr., and reworded the first paragraph, but it might need more rewording. (Thanks for moving the blurb to the talk page btw.) --JFred 01:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

First Blood Match page

The article for First Blood match either needs to be overhauled or deleted. Believe it or not they took place before the WWF was around and there have been more than two. It either needs to be expanded (a lot) or just trashed all together. The match is already represented in the match types article. I wanted to post it here before just putting it up for delete. Bdve 15:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Invasion timeline

Here's something I've been working on: a timeline of the belts during the Invasion era, with colored bars representing promotional affiliation. It's not entirely factually accurate, and there are a few bugs with EasyTimeline, but I'd like to solicit opinions on it. The timeline is the one at the bottom of User:kelvSYC/Timelines. kelvSYC 18:51, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Its cool, but can you make an argument as to why a timeline for belts during this specific era is important? That would be needed to justify an article, or inclusion of the timeline in other articles. --Naha|^(talk) 20:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The big major one is kayfabe: a belt is indicative of status, so a WCW wrestler having a WWF belt was some indication that the invasion was at least in part successful (remember that WWF was really big on it in the early Invasion). As for the real deal, it's merely a novelty, meant to show the power of the timeline. The timeline by itself is not encyclopedic. It may also act as a limited counter-argument against the "WWF shouldn't lose against WCW" argument, boosting a little bit more of an NPOV into the Invasion articles.

Besides, the timeline does not show the entire Invasion storyline - only the part between Invasion and Survivor Series. So while, say, Test is the last Intercontinental champion on the timeline, Edge is considered to be the last Invasion-era Intercontinental Champion. kelvSYC 20:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok but I'm a little bit confused. You say that the timeline is for belts during the Invasion era, and say that Edge is considered to be the last Invasion-era Intercontinental Champion, but do not include him on it? Maybe I'm missing something but it seems the timeline should include all belt holders. Also, and this really needs to be done - the dark colors, red and blue are really hard to read and should be changed to lighter shades. The same goes for the other timelines you have on that page, they are cool just really hard to read because of the dark colors :) --Naha|^(talk) 22:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The colors are a limitation of EasyTimeline (in the sense that you have very little to work with, and I don't want to be bothered with the details) - one of the reasons why I didn't link to any wrestler's page. Edge was considered to be the last Invasion-era IC champion because he won it from Test at Survivor Series - since the timeline ends at Survivor Series, I can't really put Edge in the timeline (for a similar reason, I couldn't put Angle's same-day Hardcore reign, and a limitation on EasyTimeline prevents me from doing Austin's promotion turn while he was champion). I chose Invasion as the beginning largely arbitrarily (you could say that the Storm run-in started the thing, but... kelvSYC 03:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well then I say something that is hard to read and can't be done 100% factually doesn't have a place in articles /shrug. --Naha|^(talk) 23:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it seems like no one would be willing to fiddle with the details. (Another point is that it is difficult to pinpoint when the Invasion began - should we begin at the final Nitro, WM, the Storm run-in, Invasion, etc.) kelvSYC 06:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Clean up = vandalism????

One day after i clean up the Ladder match article all my edits were reverted (see [1]) by an established user, FutureNJGov. Bewildered by this idea that cleaning an article, that had more information on Money in the Bank matches from SmackDown! than info on ladder matches as a whole, was considered vandalism I looked to find his reasoning... "Kayfabe" was his motive.. why?, what had i done, did linking towards the rules of pro wrestling and the spotfest article break some secret rule of wikipedia kayfabe that i didnt know about! or was he just on auto revert and didnt check to see edits? i just dont know--- Paulley 14:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

In his previous edits, he has used the "vandalism, kayfabe" explanation when reverting spoilers. I'm not sure why he reverted your edits, though. McPhail 16:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd pose the question directly to him in his talk page. He probably didn't realize your intentions. --JFred 19:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well im not really that worried cus i just reverted it back, i just thought it was a bit weird --- Paulley 13:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problems

There are consistently users who upload copyrighted images on professional wrestling related articles. I suggest that those who are actively involved in this project familiarize themselves with the Wikipedia copyright policy. Currently the professional wrestling article and the professional wrestling holds article (and many other related articles) contain copyrighted images which are NOT eligible for fair-use nor have any referencing to actually being press release/promotional photographs. Copyright policy is much more strict than can be expected, and currently, there is considerable copyright violation in the articles related to this project. --Marcus 07:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)