Talk:Windows 95

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Where did the October 13 date come from? Windows 95 was in fact released to the public 24 Aug 1995, I remember because my birthday is the 23rd and I lined up that midnight.

An event mentioned in this article is an August 24 selected anniversary.

[edit] System Requirements

Can someone put the requirements for Windows 95 in the article? Seems kinda silly that there not here and i came here for that information.

[edit] 386SX

Does 95 run on 386SX processors? --AW

No, at least officially as Tannin seems to say something else. I didn't try it was slow enough on 386DX.Ericd 11:50, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Virginia ... er .. I mean Adam ... it runs just fine on a 386SX of any speed. Load a 386SX-16 up with 8MB of RAM, press the power button, shave, take a shower, get dressed, comb your hair, and it's right there at the desktop ready and waiting for you already. (Don't laugh, I've worked on machines configured like that.) Tannin 11:22 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

A few years ago, a friend of mine gave me an ancient laptop he had to play around with for a few days. I can't recall which brand it was, but I remember it had a 20mhz AMD 386SXL, 4mb of memory, 60mb of harddrive space and a greyscale screen. No cd-rom, so Windows 95 had to be installed from floppy disks. It installed fine, and booted up surprisingly quickly. This little laptop had a modem which I believe was less than 9600 baud. I wanted to try installing Windows 95's dialup internet connection software and try going online with it, but for whatever reason I just never bothered with it. Infinitrium 05:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Intel's SX chips were horrendously slow rip-offs. If you've got a 386 laying around, replace the SX chip with an AMD 386DX40 - it's far faster. Now, that screenshot: is that of Windows 95? It looks more like Win98 or a version of Win95 with IE4's gui hacks.

Heaps faster, yes. Pin-compatible, not even close. A 386SX runs on a 16-bit board - essentially a 286 board with a BIOS tweak. A 386DX uses a 32-bit board which is essentially the same as a 486 board but with a different socket. Many boards of the era (notably those based on the OPTi 895 chipset, but others too) were "universal" - i.e., they could take a 386DX, 486DLC, 486SX, or 486DX.

Win95C had IE 4.0 as standard. (Which is why is was so slow and buggy.) 95B had IE 3.0, 95A had neither. It's probably a 95C in the screenshot. Tannin 17:18 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Hmm i don't remember any version of windows 95 installing IE as part of the standard install though some OEM copies i saw came with an IE4 CD in the box. The screenshot certainly doesn't have windows desktop update installed though thats not complete evidence that IE4 isn't installed. Plugwash 03:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NT

The NPOV'ing of the comparison between NT kernels and the kernel used in Windows 95 is good intentioned, but a bit extreme. There are virtually no people who believe that Windows 95 had a superior kernel. The superiority of NT kernels is obvious to anyone who used Windows 95/98/ME and Windows NT/2000/XP. -- cprompt 01:06, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] MSIE and Win95

I have a question about this line:

Later editions of Windows 95 came with Internet Explorer 3, then Internet Explorer 4 preinstalled.

Wasn't there a Win95 that came preinstalled with IE5? I would add it, but I am not sure. -iHoshie 16:50, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No, I don't believe there was, but Windows 98 Second Edition came with IE5. At least I'm pretty sure. — El Chico! ^Talk 17:40, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Win95 on 1995?

Sorry but I've always though win95 was release on 1996. Well maybe 10 years has make deep holes in my mind.

Regards

I'm almost sure that Windows 95 was originally planned for 1993 (although without Win32s). The original 95 was indeed released in 1995. Because of very serious flaws, a Service Pack 1 was released. A later edition had SP1 integrated, 95A, released in early 1996. Later in 1996, it had more 98-like features with 95B. --Mike 00:38, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] MS-DOS

I've greatly edited this paragraph:

Windows 95 ran on MS-DOS 6.22 (and later releases on MS-DOS 7.0), which was included (but generally hidden from the user). Windows 95 was the first Windows product to be tied to a specific version of DOS; this was seen as a way to leverage the dominant position Windows 3.1 had established in the GUI market and ensure that no non-Microsoft product would be able to provide the underlying operating system services.

First, Windows 95 never ran on dos 6.22, at all, period. MS-DOS 7 was never aproduct it's just the version of the command line shell. Second, Windows and DOS7 weren't "tied" to "leverage" so that a non-MS product could provide the "underlying operating system services". That's bogus by any understanding of the Win95 boot strap process.

I'm making other changes at the same time. I doubt they'll be controversial, but that large edit may be. SchmuckyTheCat 23:02, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As 95-ME only used DOS for bootstrapping, and used its own routines for just about everything, is it fair to call it DOS based? Naelphin

No, does it still say so or was this re-added? SchmuckyTheCat 18:21, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- It is from here:

History of Microsoft Windows

v • d • e

MS-DOS/9x–based:	1.0 • 2.0 • 3.0 • 3.1x • 95 • 98 • Me
NT-based:	NT 3.1 • NT 3.5 • NT 3.51 • NT 4.0 • 2000 • XP • Server 2003 • FLP • Vista
CE-based:	CE 2.0 • CE 3.0 • CE 4.0 • CE 5.0 • CE 6.0 • Mobile
Forthcoming:	Server "Longhorn" • Home Server • "Vienna"
Other projects:	Neptune • Nashville • Cairo • OS/2

It puts together 3.x and 95 as "MS-DOS based" Would anyone mind if I instead but 95-ME on hybrid?

ugh, I'd make it 16 bit rather than DOS based, because even windows 1.0 did some of it's own memory management. And then, yes, something for 95-ME. Go to it. SchmuckyTheCat 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Xerox PARC

An anon IP added a lot of text about Win95 realizing the dreams of some PARC engineers. Its useful text, but I'm not sure it belongs where it does. SchmuckyTheCat 02:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Friendly, but vehement disagreement

User:SchmuckyTheCat I made the edits to this article. I don't see how my changes cannot be considered completely germaine. Therefore, I am re-introducing them. I don't know why my moniker, PainMan didn't show up; I had no intention of hiding behind anonymity. (I am new at this.) Engelbart's work and Xerox PARC's development of said work are directly related to all subsequent GUI development and any article discussing their most commercially, if not technologically, successful "descendant" is incomplete with their mention. They must go back in. PainMan 14:11, 14 May 2005

We already cover this stuff elsewhere. Graphical user interface Why is it crucial that it be added to the Windows 95 article? If it belongs on Windows 95, then it just as equally belongs on Windows 1.0 and Mac OS. AlistairMcMillan 14:40, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

If iteration of critical information in more than one place is a sin, then Wikkipedia's got a serious problem; indeed, it throws the whole concept of cross-indexing out the window. If you know little or nothing about Engelbart and PARC, you might never discover it if you didn't check the articles on Win 1x, etc. Newbies or the uniformed can use the information I've added to obtain a fuller understanding of GUI evolution. I fail to see the logic behind the objection to this. PainMan 15:49, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

This stuff is mentioned elsewhere. It deserves a link, not the entire focus of the second paragraph of the article. The contributions of hundreds of msft engineers who directly did GUI work isn't in this article, and many of them have wikipedia articles. By your reasoning, Requiem for a Dream needs to go on at length about Herodotus.

And the other edit, about Win95 being a 16 bit OS with a 32 bit emulation layer is absolute nonsense.

I reverted the whole thing. If you'd like to add a sentence with a link to this guy at some point (probably not the introduction) it'd probably be better recieved by the other editors. SchmuckyTheCat 15:37, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea what this means. I'd appreciate if you'd 'splain. If I've violated protocol, it's a result of ignorance, not malice or tendentiousness.

:And the other edit, about Win95 being a 16 bit OS with a 32 bit emulation layer is absolute nonsense.

I'm not an engineer, but I've heard from too many who are, people whom I'm certainly not going to mention by name without their permission, given the behemoth of Redmond's reputation. So we're going to have to agree to disagree there. I also added a qualifier to it that I believe was sufficient to show that it is a contentious point.

And my edits are going back in as I consider them to be essential information. One of the biggest flaws in engineer-think, something I had the opportunity to observe at close hand for years, is the assumption that everyone knows what engineers know. Hardly true. Many will come to this without having worked in IT as you and I have.

PainMan 15:41, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

There is no reason to duplicate the content that already exists on graphical user interface. AlistairMcMillan 16:05, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Going against Lord Bill's writ is apparently not to be tolerated.

Again, I accept defeat. I accept my contributions are clearly not desired in matters of importance. It's nothing new. Been on the outside looking it for so long, my breath has started to stain the glass.

The most endangered species: the honest man...

--Neil Peart, Natural Science, from Permanent Waves.

PainMan 16:35, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] If people aren't interested in my contributions

This controversy isn't worth making enemies to me. If people aren't interested in my addition to this, so be it. I accept defeat.

Apparently, there are cliques within this avowedly "open" community and I'm not welcome. I get the hint.

It remains to be seen if my views, when deviating from orthodoxy, will be tolerated at all here. I had hoped this would be different than the NYTimes or Yahoo! chatboards. I appear to have made a grievous error. It saddens me. But I'm used to rejection.

My contributions--if tolerated at all--are apparently to be confined to the ephemeral. I've noticed, for instance, that my addition to the article on Arrakis has drawn no attention whatsoever, let alone such contention.

Since I still hope there can be a place here for me, I'm not going to do anything to give anyone ammunition to eliminate me from the "community."

Perhaps someone would be so kind as to tell me whom I must placate to be taken seriously here. Once again, I overestimate my fellow bipeds.

So be it.

Again, Mr. McMillan, thanks for your time.

PainMan 16:24, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

No one is stopping you contributing. I'm sorry you first major contribution here has caused problems, but discussing the history of the GUI belongs on the GUI page, not on the Windows 95 page. AlistairMcMillan 16:33, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Anybody who has studied the Windows 95 kernel architecture would laugh at the idea it's a 16 bit OS. It's absolutely preposterous. For backwards compatibility there is some 16/32 bit hybridization code left over from WfWg, and that's pretty much restricted to GDI code, and was re-written in assembly. Wikipedia isn't a mouthpiece for uninformed detractors, nor for rumour and innuendo. If you want to insert this 16 bit stuff, source it to someone qualified to say so. SchmuckyTheCat 16:37, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

No need to beat a dead horse, Schmucky. No need to "ply the thong with extra vigor." I accept defeat and rejection. You're clearly going to win; if there's one thing I've learned in 34 years, it's when to raise the white flag. It's so raised. PainMan 16:48, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, betaing not intended, that was written while other edits were on the page. (it's a wiki, sometimes things are fast and furious). See my entry on your talk page. I don't want to bite the newcomer! SchmuckyTheCat 16:54, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox image

I think the image in the infobox should be the logo of Windows 95, the image currently in the infobox can be used somewhere else in the article. -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 08:57, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] For newbies, don't deviate from the party line...

While the last revision was, shockingly, actually warranted, those new to wikipedia, or just this article, should be aware there's a group of folks, some of whom are former employees, or, perhaps present employees of Lord Bill (who just forced all XP users to give him the right to spy on their computers when they download the latest fix for an OS short-coming or security hole that should have been caught before XP ever hit the shelves, the fact that this will create a two tier world of Windows and make the OS, if possible, even less secure, seems to be about as high on the MSFT priority list as quality control, or so Ph'd holding computer engineers tell me), that will not let any content that doesn't follow the Microsoft party line get into this article.

So, don't even try it. Like Sinyavsky and Daniel in the late 60s Soviet Union, you'll be slapped down by the MSFT Central Commitee faster than you can say "Palo Alto Research Center"--the place that created the first corporate GUI--a fact verboten from this article.

Bottom line: views contrary to Lord Bill's ukases are not wanted and will be removed. And I'm sure a reason will be found for removing this comment even though it's on the Discussion page. It'll probably last about as long as the time between Microsoft fixes for major security holes...

I'd bite anyone who removes information from a talk page unless it was harassing or illegal somehow. Last time you entered information here, most agreed it was relevant and interesting, but more relevant on another article. If you think you want to add something again, why not just do it and see what the reaction is? If you think there is serious objection, dump it here for discussion first. SchmuckyTheCat 20:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

"If you think there is serious objection, dump it here for discussion first."

That's exactly what I did. :o) "I'd bite anyone who removes information from a talk page unless it was harassing or illegal somehow." Really, even if it said information were, hypothetical speaking, incorrect? Isn't one of the major advantages of wikipedia--perhaps I'm wrong--is that incorrect information can be corrected? Unlike say Britannica where I have no idea how one would go about getting erroneous information corrected.

While I realize now I was rather thin-skinned about the whole thing, I still dispute that including a thumbnail sketch of the GUI's history (Engelbart, PARC, etc) is "irrelevant" in an article on Windows 95. The fact that certain data may appear in another article is no reason NOT to include one or several more articles. I believe this is called cross-referencing and can help people seeking knowledge about the long history of the GUI. Many younger folks (i.e. the under 20 crowd) believe that computing began with Windows, when in fact nearly all the major features of GUI were already invented when Gates and Allen were selling traffic data already freely available from the state of Washington (an early example of the marketing genius that, far more than anything technological, allowed Microsoft to conquer the microcomputer world--much to its detriment. Its inconceivable to argue that two or three serious OS competitors [to Windows] would not make for a better computing universe for everyone, well, not everyone).

PainMan 18:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Additions/corrections in final paragraph

I felt some minor corrections had to made to the final paragraph, i.e. before the chart of various 9x iterations.

I belive the article is incomplete without mentioning the strong resemblance between OS 7.6.1 and 95--and the ensuing litigation. That the market-place dominance achieved with 95 has allowed MSFT to port Windows to non-PC devices is also, I feel, very germaine to the article.

Certain people objected when I attempted to include a brief history of the GUI in the article some time back. I still do not understand the objection to what was highly relevant information (after all, in an article on the Napoleonic Wars you don't leave out biographical material on the Corsican!). As I said, a number of people disagreed. None, imo, had cogent reasons for doing so.

This final paragraph, however, needed some additions to make the article more complete. Microsoft's use of its desktop monopoly to leverage versions of Windows into CE, PDAs and embedded devices cannot be irrelevant regardless of whether its mentioned in some other articles.

I decided not to dispute it the last time. This time, I feel I must stick to my guns. The facts I added are important and completely on-point. I suppose its possible someone can convince me otherwise, but I doubt it.

The Start button/task bar did NOT originate with 95. Clearly the inspiration was OS 7.6.1. I'm no patent lawyer but the resemblance is too obviously to be ignored. Also, from what I understand, Apple was making serious head-way in its litigation against Microsoft. Whilst the anti-trust case probably had more to do with Redmond settling than the turn of the litigation tide, it was still a concession, regardless of the usual "no admission of liability" BS (who pays $150M is there's no liability? This wasn't a $2000 car wreck), that the basic look of 95 had been filched from the Mac.

If the "apple" logo in the upper left-hand corner of OS 7.6.1 wasn't a "start" button what was it? It contained lists of recently opened documents and programs and well as short-cuts to applications.

So, I'm going to sit back and see what happens. PainMan 13:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Windows 95 Service Pack 1 - February 13, 1996

The Windows 95 Service Pack 1 (as an update) was released by Microsoft on February 13, 1996.

[edit] Release hype

While cleaning up my workspace I found these links I had saved a while back. They talk about the hype surrounding the launch and it might be nice to work these into the article at some point (they're reputable sources, after all!):

Basically dropping them here for later. :) --Foofy 16:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DMA = Ultra DMA?

What is "DMA support"? Ultra ATA aka Ultra DMA support? Obviously all versions of Windows support direct memory access, or they wouldn't be able to read floppy disks... among other things. 82.92.119.11 15:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

UM floppies are certainly slow enough that you could read them without DMA (the data rate has only quadrupled since the days of the bbc micro and that certainly read them without DMA) Plugwash 03:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Speed is not the issue—on the PC, many (most?) floppy controllers only support DMA for data transfer. If Windows didn't support DMA, it would have a hard time interfacing with them.

Aside from that, speed is actually a bit of an issue, because reading a floppy without using DMA is like actively sucking molasses through a straw—the processor needs to devote attention to it, which is inefficient. 82.92.119.11 22:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah PIO is inefficant but i highly doubt that many flopy controllers only support DMA do you have a source for that assertion? Plugwash 01:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

PC floppy controllers ONLY support DMA (DMA channel 2 to be exact). Numerous references can be found online, but try ISBN 90-430-0349-6 for a printed one. —Ruud 23:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Windows resemblance to Mac OS

The strong resemblance between Windows 95 and the Apple Macintosh's OS 7.6.1 would lead to years of litigation between Microsoft and its archrival in Cupertino, CA--especially because the Start button and taskbar, according to Apple's claims, were taken directly from OS 7.6.1.

Okay, what's this based on? I know Microsoft and Apple got into a fight over Windows when it first came out, but I've never heard of this one! Also, where in OS 7.6.1 is there anything even resembling the taskbar? Source, anyone? -- Foofy 02:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

After much Googling I've decided to remove this bit from the article. I can find nothing to back it up, and I feel the original author was confusing it with earlier legal battles over Windows 1.0. -- Foofy 12:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I also decided to remove this bit from the same paragraph:

The near monopoly achieved of desktop operating systems with Windows 95 has allowed the Redmond-based giant to adapt Windows to non-PC environments, including PDAs (personal data assistants), home entertainment (Windows Media Center) and other consumer electronic products (with the unsurprisingly named Windows CE).

It's not specifically relevant to Windows 95, and that sort of thing is covered in other articles. --Foofy 12:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling error corrected

I've just made a very minor change. Fixed a spelling error: "were'nt" to "weren't".

[edit] This part needs to go

Um.. I'm going to delete this part:

As of 2006, Windows 95 is still widely used among "technically-incompetent" computer users who purchased computers during the Windows 95 era and lack the skills and/or knowledge to desire an upgrade.

Anyone who doesn't agree?

It's fundamentally true, try re-wording it. SchmuckyTheCat 22:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I dunno how common it is among home lusers but i do know for a fact that the john rylands university library of manchester use it for all the dedicated catalog terminals! Plugwash

That sentence was obviously vandalism, and flaming to boot. --Andrew T. 09:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok maybe using luser as shorthand for technically incompetant user wasn't the most polite of wording but the comment is certainly true. Plugwash 03:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

This part also needs to go:

Windows 95 brought much greater power and usability to the desktop GUI, but on the bad side, it also stifled competition in the DOS compatible operating system market. While it was technically possible (but not a good idea given the above) to start the Windows 95 kernel and GUI from DR-DOS — and probably PC-DOS too — this did not emerge in court until some years later, by which time the other major players in the DOS market were effectively out of business.

I've reworded it, as it's clearly POV to state that Windows becoming dominant was a bad thing. There's advantages to having one standard OS, but lack of competition can be bad, too - not everyone agrees about the effects of monopolies (or whether Microsoft even really is one). PaulGS 04:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fact check usage of win95 in 2006

As of 2006, Windows 95 remains in widespread use on some home PCs despite Microsoft's many attempts to get people to upgrade to more recent versions such as Windows XP.

We need a fact check for that. Source it anyone? I'll look as well.

It should simply be removed as it is unsourced speculation. I will do so. It can be readded if such a source is found.-Localzuk^(talk) 16:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure it's used on some, I know of a PC at my college running Win98 because of some peripheral that requires it. I think it's like, less than 4%. --TIB (talk) 23:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that it is 'some' but that doesn't mean 'widespread'. Also, Win98 is not Win95 and all of this is simply speculation. We would need a citation for it.-Localzuk^(talk) 23:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

From recent microsoft security bulletin:

Extended security update support for Microsoft Windows 98, Windows 98 Second Edition, or Windows Millennium Edition ended on July 11, 2006. I am still using one of these operating systems; what should I do?
Windows 98, Windows 98 Second Edition, and Windows Millennium Edition have reached the end of their support life cycles. It should be a priority for customers who have these operating system versions to migrate to supported versions to prevent potential exposure to vulnerabilities.

– Microsoft Security Bulletin MS06-068, Microsoft TechNet

Based on this, making a claim that Win95 is in wide use is imho reckless. Extended support for it ended some time ago. Perhaps we should say somethign like, "While still in use in isolated circumstances, extended support for this operating system ended blah blah blah." --David Spalding | Talk 13:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Win 95 ver 950 D?

I seem to vaguely recall that there is a fairly obscure final release of 95 that was sent out as 950 D only to people who purchased a version of Windows from an independent retailer (i.e. as a bare CD, with product key included), or who ordered from an OEM which included this build on the requisite recovery CD, or as an actual Windows 95 CD.

Can anyone substantiate the existence of this build?

24.84.72.113 07:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

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