Talk:Women of the Wall

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I think my description is extremely mild, especially my description of the reactions of ultra-Orthodox Jews at the western wall. I hope that others will contribute to this page, especially those who are most familiar with the issues and with the latest legal developments in Israel. I hope people will regard this as a neutral encyclopedia article, yet still be will to use strong factual materials and descriptions. -- Metzenberg 06:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The article is not NPOV. Mildness does not excuse one-sideness. There is something to be said for the other side. By way of analogy, a group of female Protestant ministers who burst into St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, pulled out wine and wafers, and began holding a communion service out loud would likely be shown the door. This is so even if one believes that Catholics shouldn't be controlling the Basilica and ought to give other denominations equal access, and even if one believes the Catholic ban on women priests or any number of their other beliefs and practices is wrong. Clearly, people on the Catholic side might have something to say in such a situation. There's a reason why "When in Rome do like a Roman" is such a common statement of good manners. We shouldn't expect people in bikinis to be welcome in Mecca, either. When you go to a holy site, you have to behave in accordance with the standards of decorum of the people running the site, like it or not, unreasonable or not. A neutral encyclopedia should give both sides.

Here is a blog entry by a woman who claims she started praying with Women of the Wall but became dissaffected. http://jerusalemrevealed.blogspot.com/2005/01/women-and-wall.html

I've attempted to add in content on the opposing (Haredi) viewpoint and the Israeli Supreme Court decision, not out of agreement with those viewpoints, but because Wikipedia editorial standards on Neutral Point of View require it. --Shirahadasha 16:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Although non-Orthodox movements in Judaism have adopted egalitarian positions and practices, and the role of women has been changing gradually in Modern Orthodox Judaism, traditional authorities hold sway.

This sentence is extremely POV (it almost read as “while everyone else has come to their senses stupid old rabbis who control the area have not”). All it is needs to say is "The Western wall area is controlled by..." (the Israeli rabbinate?)(the Jerusalem municipality) (or whoever). There is no reason at all to mention any other egalitarian movements. It should also make clear when these “traditional authorities” got involved. As I recall it was (at least at first) the people at the Kotel who objected. Jon513 22:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've attempted to organize the article into a factual introduction, a WOW arguments section, and a Haredi arguments section. I've added material including quotes from WOW organizer Phyllis Chester and from Haredi rabbi Avi Shafran's anti-WOW website. --Shirahadasha 01:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you are reading your own point of view into that sentence, and projecting onto me an attitude towards which you are very sensitive. The sentence is in fact true. The Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist movements have completely adopted egalitarian positions. They leave their implementation up to the minhag of individual congregations, but there is essentially no controversy among non-Orthodox Jews. In the United States, Canada, Australia, and Great Britain an overwhelming majority of Jews are non-Orthodox (although perhaps not avowedly secular, as in Israel). The changes in Modern Orthodox Judaism, at least in the United States where I am familiar with them, are also quite obvious. So that sentence was not meant to offend you or anybody else. It was simply a statement of what the facts are. I'm not sure what it is that bothers you. Is there a better word than "egalitarian" for this? --Metzenberg 04:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Involvement in Israeli-Palestinian Conflict?

This article doesn't currently discuss any involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If Women of the Wall are involved in this conflict, please write a section on their inolvement and cite sources. Otherwise, mention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict category is inappropriate under the verification policy. --Shirahadasha 19:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You are right. Sorry, I try to create useful categories but when moving around dozens of articles (which usually requires looking at at least a couple dozen which don't fit) I can make some mistakes. I try to only apply the category to articles that already talk about the issue. I went through the Israeli organizations category and had both Women in Black and Women Of The Wall open -- I guess I got confused and it isn't hard to since "Women Of The Wall" could easily be a name used by a group of women protesting or supporting the security barrier. heh. --Ben Houston 22:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, Women of the Wall has no involvement and no official position on the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It encompasses women and their supporters from a variety of points of view. It is true that Women of the Wall receives support from many persons and groups who could be described as liberal Zionists, supporters of a two-state solution with a negotiated settlement of the conflict (if possible). For example, Women of the Wall is a grantee of the New Israel Fund. The New Israel Fund itself has no formal position, except that it does not support organizations operating outside of the Green Line other than those within the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem. --Metzenberg 04:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Status of Temple Mount and Religious Authorities

Reverted recent edits by user:Amoruso because:

1. The Temple itself is considered holier in Judaism than the Temple Mount, revert edit indicating otherwise.
2. The Jerusalem rabbi responsible fot the Kotel is a Haredi rabbi and the opinions he follows are Haredi opinions. Women's prayer groups are permitted by some authorities in Modern Orthodox Judaism but are prohibitted by all Haredi Judaism opinions. It would be incorrect to say that Orthodox Judaism as a whole holds the views involved.

Best, --Shirahadasha 00:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the info on the image. The kotel isn't the holiest site, it's the temple mount itself and the holy of holies but western wall is close to it... no need to say it's holiest which isn't factually true. Second, it's not a former temple mount it's the name of the mount. Amoruso 01:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I realised now what you were trying to say, but second temple can't be holiest site since the temple doesn't exist, it's not a site. Better just not to include this on this article. As for Haredi, needless to say , saying Haredi through out the article is serious WP:POV and it needs cleanup IMO. I'm not aware of any orthdox rabbi who will allow a woman to wear a talit etc - that's classic reformist judaism. Amoruso 01:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you consider Rashi and Rambam reform? See the Wikipedia article Tallit#Views on use by women. See also "Talit for Women," Henkin, Yehuda Herzl. In: Response On Contemporary Jewish Women's Issues. Ktav, 2003. Best, --Shirahadasha 04:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

These historical assumptions are interesting yet irrelevant. Obviously, Having a bar mitzvah for a girl who will wear a talit, a tflin too ? and then read from the bible is not allowed in orthodox judaism. Amoruso 04:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Rabbi Yehudah Herzl Henkin is a contemporary Posek, not a historical figure. See also Rabbi Aryeh A.& Rabbi Dov I. Frimer, Women's Prayer Services - Theory and Practice, Tradition, 32:2, pp. 5-118 (Winter 1998) and Avi Weiss, Women at Prayer: A Halakhic Analysis of Women's Prayer Groups, Ktav publishers, January 2003 ISBN 0-88125-719-2. These are all undoubtedly very lenient Modern Orthodox opinions that are way outside the hashkapha of the Israeli rabbinate (or yours), but they exist. At the women's prayer group in Avi Weiss' synagogue "women daven together, read from the Torah, and lead the services....omit[ting] any D'varim Sh'Bekedushah." The web site notes that "Many young women have chosen to celebrate their becoming a Bat Mitzvah with our Women's tefillah." See [1]. Whether this synagogue is accurate in calling itself an Orthodox synagogue or not is not for Wikipedia to say. The web site makes clear that yes, they read from the Bible: "The weekly reading is divided into seven portions. For each portion a woman may volunteer to receive the honor of being called up for an Aliyah to recite the Brachot, or Torah blessings before and after the portion is read. It is customary to have a Bat Kohen, daughter of a Kohen, called up for the first aliyah, and a Bat Levi, daughter of a Levi, to come up for the second Aliyah. The remaining five Aliyot are distributed among B`not Yisrael, daughters of an Israelite." Best, --Shirahadasha 20:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)