Template talk:American Idol

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Template:American Idol page.
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Contents 1 Size 2 Spin-offs 3 Runners-Up? 4 notable alumni 5 Proposed standard for "other notable alumni" 6 Reformat

[edit] Size

This template is rather large and garish, particularly when put into smaller articles. Any way we can trim it down? -- MisterHand 19:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

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I just thought it might be a good idea to have all the articles pertaining to American Idol in one place, to keep it all organized.

We can also moniter all the AI articles (for vandalism, etc.) by clicking on "whatlinkshere" or "related changes".

—Chantessy 19:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I also think that it's getting quite large, and it should be split into smaller templates. I suggest that the roster section be removed completely, and perhaps we add a prominent link to a List of American Idol finalists. Then on the individual contestant pages, we use a more compact navigation box that only includes the contestants of a particular season, like this:

...what do you think? Coffee 00:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, contestant navigation templates are at...

• Template:American Idol 1
• Template:American Idol 2
• Template:American Idol 3
• Template:American Idol 4
• Template:American Idol 5

And there's also Template:American Idol winners. Coffee 11:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spin-offs

Please note that shows that are listed as spin-offs on here are shows that are either endorsed by the show or made by the same company. Pink moon 1287 19:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Does "Dreamgirls" count as a spin-off? If nobody objects in the next 7 days, I'll add it to the template. Sigil2 06:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Re-read the previous comment, Sigil2. No, Dreamgirls doesn't count as a spin-off, though Jennifer Hudson definitely belongs here. --RBBrittain 03:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Runners-Up?

Do you think that runners-up are generally as notable as the winners on American Idol?? Clay Aiken I can see as being even more notable than Ruben Studdard, but the rest I think are not as notable as the winners. If there isn't a good reason for the revert, it will stay removed. Marcus2 21:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

After first adding Clay Aiken back (you agreed he belongs here), I decided to revert to the runners-up version. They may not be as notable (other than Aiken), but there is one important distinction: Except for Justin Guarini in Season 1, each runner-up gets a record deal along with the winner (and unlike the rest of the finalists). Besides, with adding Aiken back to the "other" section, I was torn as to whether or not Chris Daughtry (whose debut album, like Aiken's, IIRC has outsold the debut of every "Idol" winner to date) belongs here too; it's easier if we limit the "notable others" to Jennifer Hudson (likely Oscar winner) and William Hung (so infamous he became famous). --RBBrittain 03:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I added back the Runners-Up section. Katharine's album is selling well, Bo's did, Diana's on Broadway, the only one not really notable is Justin, but he was still the first ever runner-up so I think it should stay. And I neednot mention why Clay should be there. If the winners are there, so should the runners-up so I think we should leave it up. Zaque 24 01:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] notable alumni

how did Frenchie davis get on this list?

I'm not sure what the criteria are here but I've added Lisa Wilson, a semi-finalist from Season 3. Lisa was Miss Georgia USA 2006 and second runner-up at Miss USA 2006, which in my books makes her notable. Erin Abrahamson, top 80 in the same season was Miss New Jersey Teen USA 2001 and is Miss New Jersey USA 2007, but because she didn't make the top 24 I have left her out. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 22:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

We need some sort of standard for judging this. It has no place otherwise. Michael 04:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I mean, why are seven of the ten 3rd-12th place contestants of season 5 here? I have no argument with Chris Daughtry (No. 1/multi-platinum album) or even Kellie Pickler (gold album, possible TV series); but surely most of the rest don't belong. We need a standard that retains at least Daughtry & Pickler--plus the only ones here not too long ago, Jennifer Hudson (Oscar, 'nuff said) & William Hung (as I said before, so infamous he's famous)--without bringing in every single finalist or contestant. --RBBrittain 02:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed standard for "other notable alumni"

The "other notable alumni" section is getting out of hand, with the re-addition of Antonella Barba pushing it to a fourth line. (If Antonella belongs here, so does Frenchie Davis; she's been removed before, and I don't think either of them belong on their notoriety alone.) After reviewing the sales list in the main American Idol article, I propose the following standard for including Idol participants not in other categories (judges, winners, runners-up, etc.) in this section:

• U.S. album sales of at least 100,000 units (per the main article); or
• Winning an Academy Award, primetime Emmy Award, Grammy Award, or Tony Award.

I chose the 100,000 level based on the sales of the least-selling runner-up, Justin Guarini (150,000); I then lowered it to 100,000 as a round number, and because that only adds Tamyra Gray (122,000) who belongs because she was the first and also has TV-series credentials (Boston Public). The following qualify under this particular criteria:

• Chris Daughtry (4th place, season 5; 1,880,000 as Daughtry)
• Josh Gracin (4th place, season 2; 647,000)
• Kellie Pickler (6th place, season 5; 463,000)
• William Hung (auditioner, season 3; 295,000)
• Kimberley Locke (3rd place, season 2; 211,000)
• Tamyra Gray (4th place, season 1; 122,000)

If Dreamgirls: Music from the Motion Picture (single-disc, 633,000; double-disc, 142,000) is attributed to Jennifer Hudson (7th place, season 3), she would also qualify; however, the second criteria is specifically aimed at her for winning the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for Dreamgirls. (The only other Idol participants to have won "big four" awards so far are Kelly Clarkson and Carrie Underwood, both Grammy winners--and both included already as Idol winners.)

I am amending the template to italicize those that do not qualify under this proposed standard, and to warn that they will be deleted on March 25, 2007 (in eight days). If you prefer a different standard, please add your thoughts below. --RBBrittain 22:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC) (Made qualifiers bold: --RBBrittain 22:40, 17 March 2007 (UTC))

I really don't like this critera. But I have a knew idea. Why don't we just have people vote for which contestants should stay, and then have a certain amount of votes to have. For instance, if the maxiumum is 5 votes, and Frenchie Davis only has 3, and Lisa Tucker has 15. Lisa would stay but Frenchie wouldn't. Anyone else think so? 216.54.173.236 00:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The cut-off of 100,000 based on Justin Guarini seems to be arbitrary and doesn't address people who are noted on AI but not for album sales. I also don't like voting for who stays and who goes. That would be an even poorer indicator of notability and may encourage sockpuppetry. (notability based on Wikipedians' opinions?) I propose to eliminate this section altogether, but only if a list that was deleted is restored. You can see Talk:American Idol#Restore List of American Idol contestants?. Tinlinkin 02:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This also doesn't take into account those notable outside American Idol for things unrelated to music etc. For example Lisa Wilson, who I added a while back but someone seems to have removed, was second runner-up at Miss USA and thus is clearly notable enough to be included. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 04:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If she had actually won Miss USA, I might agree; but she didn't, so I don't think she belongs here--though I didn't remove her. (Likewise for Ayla Brown, who is here and proposed for deletion, and her NCAA basketball career.)

As far as the criteria's relationship to music, remember that (as Simon Cowell loves to say) Idol is a singing competition, so music should be the primary focus. (And I didn't pick the 100,000 number entirely because of Justin; it also keeps William Hung & Tamyra Gray in while culling most of the deadweight.) I have considered possibly adding a criteria based on appearances in Broadway or national touring musicals (which as a minimum would save LaToya London and bring in Frenchie Davis), since that has some relationship to music; but I'm not fully sold on that.

IMHO, the proper weighting for success in other media should be the "big four" award criteria I established mainly for Jennifer Hudson & equivalent achievements. --RBBrittain 21:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the section should be eliminated as well, and I somewhat agree with restoring the complete list of contestants, however, additional research needs to be done on that. CrazyC83 04:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC) I think just leave all the names up there. All of them that are on the template have done something considerable. 216.54.173.188 18:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

However, we cannot just pick and choose whom to include. That violated WP:NOR. Michael 21:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This goes back to the argument about runners-up; but if you eliminate runners-up, all you really do is drag Clay Aiken fans back into the argument over this section. I'd only support that idea if we concurrently raise the album-sales criteria to RIAA gold certification (with the "big four" award criteria unchanged); that eliminates one whole category while reducing this one to Aiken, Daughtry, Bo Bice, Gracin, Pickler, and Hudson. (Platinum certification would be a bit too severe.)

At this point, I do NOT support restoring the list of contestants, though it might work if it were separate from this template and combined with some major pruning (i.e., delete all but the winners). The problem here is that, IMO, most of the people in this section are NOT really "notable", but are just wasting space; that's what I'm trying to fix. (One last point: Unfortunately, the Wikipedia definition of "notable" doesn't really address the issue at hand, except to suggest that the criteria be objective--which is what I'm doing.) --RBBrittain 21:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Why can't we just leave it like it is. 216.54.173.225 01:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why contestants such as LaToya London and Mario Vazquez should be considered for deletion at all - the notability criteria for music on Wikipedia only requires being signed to a major label, not a minimum sales requirement, and many contestants have had songs chart on various Billboard charts without reaching that figure of sales. User:Lone twin 17:2, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the inclusion/exclusion criteria above. While the fans of the various alumni left out would disagree, including every AI contestant who meets the minimum standards of WP:NOTE would make the template unweildy long. Also having an excessively long alumni list would make the template unbalanced, giving too much weight to relatively minor players in the competition.--Eqdoktor 09:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with RBBrittain's criteria in the fullest. None of the italicized contestants deserve to really be there, and it's a nice list of criteria to help take them off. --Smoke Rulz 12:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Why doesn't a template be created for notable AI contestants 216.54.173.181 00:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Just REMOVE ALL THE NOTABLE contestants, and keep them where they belong, in their appropriate seasons! Pumapayam

A couple of people cited Wikipedia standards for "notability", but no one directly linked to Wikipedia:Notability (music). Based on the comments and the Wikipedia notability standards, I have implemented the criteria with two modifications:

• Jasmine Trias is retained because one of the specific criteria is having a record certified gold or higher in any country; she has two such albums in the Philippines (one platinum, one gold).
• Elliott Yamin is retained because Hits Daily Double predicts his album will debut with up to 90,000 copies sold [1], which suggests he will reach my 100,000 criteria shortly.

Note that though the specifics of the Wikipedia music criteria vary from my own, the results appear to be very similar for the most part; for example, though William Hung hasn't reached gold certification, he has released three albums on the Koch Entertainment label, which appears to meet the criteria of having released two albums on a major label or important indie label.

As a final note, the eighth Wikipedia criteria ("(h)as won or placed in a major music competition") largely puts to rest the whole argument about the "runners-up" category of this template. American Idol certainly qualifies as a "major music competition", so all Idol winners AND runners-up are automatically "notable". --RBBrittain 03:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reformat

I reformatted the navigation box to use {{navbox generic}} so that the text can be easier to read and the box would not look so big. Tinlinkin 05:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)