Talk:旧金山
维基百科，自由的百科全书
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[编辑] 俗名典故
金山，又是旧的，好象应该有个什么故事。
[编辑] About the title of this article
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- First of all, sorry for the arguement about the translated name of San Francisco, however, it's not "someone" intentionally change the title back to 舊金山(the old gold mountain), but our policy to use the most well-accepted, popular name as the main title of every articles (even the names are inaccurate or incorrect), right in CHINESE Wikipedia (No matter how the policy is in other versions). I have no idea if our Californian friends can read and write Chinese language or understand it thoroughly, but I still have to explain that, Chinese do sometimes translate things in a very strange way. We are very pleased to add the correct information about the naming of San Francisco in the article, to educate next generation or whatever the reason is. But, if we break the rule of our naming policy about the title of articles, it will make very huge trouble dealing with the already quarrelsome community here. Since we have two major character systems and several pronounciation systems, it's not easy to determine which should be the only one correct translation for some specific topics.
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- By the way, I have to figure out that, although 舊金山(the old gold mountain) was an old incorrect name used by early Chinese immigrants in local San Francisco, it's NOT UNOFFICIAL. This name is officially recognized by at least Taiwanese government (Please advise the website of National Institute For Compilation and Translation). If you have the chance to read the Chinese version of Britannica Concise Encyclopedia (ISBN 957-32-5150-7), they use the name 舊金山;三藩市 as the title of San Francisco, and never mentioned about 聖佛朗西司科 at all!--泅水大象 15:44 2005年1月12日 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation. You state that the Wikipedia policy for Chinese-language articles is to use the most accepted, popular name as the main title of every articles "even the names are inaccurate or incorrect". I respectfully suggest that if the name is inaccurate or incorrect, it would be in the public interest to use the correct name, with the popular inaccurate name in parentheses for reference. That is the common practice in all the other languages. If Wikepedia is particularly sensitive about the name 聖佛朗西司科, for political reasons or whatever, then at a minimum I suggest you use another transliteration, such as 三藩市 for the heading since it is a partial transliteration and not a made up name that is totally unrelated to the original.
For US citizens and especially Californians, this is a sensitive issue and relates to our sense of national pride. I am sure that our Taiwan friends would feel the same way if the entry for Taiwan were changed to "Formosa". Furthermore, although I respect the Taiwan government/authority regarding their decision on official names for Taiwan place names, including new names for Keelung, Taroko Gorge, Grass Mountain, etc., they should not decide on American names. This should be decided by American authorities, just as Russian authorities have corrected the Chinese mistranslation of places like Vladivostok.
I hope we can reach a consensus in a friendly, businesslike manner. Regards User San Franciscan
One good example is the Vietnamese translation. They also have a popular but incorrect name for San Francisco (Cựu Kim Sơn), based on the Vietnames pronunciation of the Han Characters "舊金山". In the article, we use the correct name as the header,with alternate versions Cựu Kim Sơn (舊金山), San-phran-xit-co, Xan Phran-xít-cô in parentheses. Hopefully, the Chinese version can follow the examples of other languages so that Wikipedia can become a source of accurate information in all languages instead of making special exeptions for Chinese.
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- I agree the point "Local government/authority has the right to participate in the naming of the place", so I linked to SFGOV, the official website of San Francisco City and County government to see if they have any statement about the official translation of the name. Then, I'm surprised that they do provide a Chinese version so I went on, and saw this on the homepage of the city government "歡迎到正式舊金山市和縣網站"! (By the way, they didn't mention about 三藩市 or 聖佛朗西司科, either)
- Of course, this is a work of a mechine translation, it's not accurate enough compare to human translation. But, since 舊金山 is only a name, a noun, I have to suppose that San Francisco government in some degree accepts this translation and would like us to call the beautiful city by this.
- (you can see exactly what I saw here: SFGOV Chinese HP)--泅水大象 19:00 2005年1月12日 (UTC)
We will check with our government office and make sure the web site is accurate. The machine translation you pointed to is not official. In any event, I am sure you agree that translated names should be as close to the original as possible, as in the examples cited above. If you do not like the most accurate translation, why do you insist on 舊金山 which is totally unrelated to the real name of the city. I am sure residents of Shenyang would not like the English version of Wikipedia to use Mukden.
hello, my name is Pedro and I am a ntive San Franciscan. The name comes from Spanish and means St Francis. There are also cities named San Francisco in Brasil and other countries. Since it is named after a religious.cultural figure it is important that the name be maintained in all translations. I do not know Chinese or Vietnames but would find it very insulting if they used a totally different name for our great city. As long as it as close to the original as possible then I thnk it is OK but not if they just make up a totlly different word. The same of course applied to other cities, includiing Vietnames and Chinese. We should use an English or Spanish word that is as close to the original as possible and not just make our own, or use popular but wrong forms.
The example of Bombay is useful. We now decided to use Mumbai to make it closer to the Hindi original. Also, we decided to use Beijing instead of Peking or Peping to make it closer to the official Chinese name. Same for HoChiMinh City, we dont use the old name Saigon any more.
So hopefully the Chinese version and all the others will try to be as accurate as possible to promote better mutual understanding.
Adios
Hi folks,
just wanted to add my personal view and remind everyone that no langauge belongs to any one country or ethnic group. English is not decided in the UK, US, India, or Australia, Chinese usage is not decided in the PRC, Taiwan, or Singapore. We need to keep an open mind regarding place names and give priority to the suggestions from native populations of the region
concerned.
Bill Freeman
- The most important reason why we suggest to keep the original article title is that, 舊金山 is the only name that is 100% understandable among the Chinese community. Other names, even 三藩市, the shorten form of the direct pronounciation translate, are not understood perfectly. We do respect the origin of the name San Francisco or its Spanish form, so it should be added as an important part of the content. However, the title name is used for recognization, not for academic research. That is, although I did agree the translated names should be as accurate as possible, I don't agree the article titles should follow the same rule.
- I can understand your point of view thoroughly and will put it through consideration later, since I'm thinking to hold a vote about this issue in village pump. So far, many evidences show that, what you insist as a "public interest" is actually not that public as you state (otherwise the editors of the translation program or SFGOV won't use the name 舊金山 in their software), but an opinion from you or a group of people. So the opinion is worth to think about but shouldn't be the RULE that we Chinese Wikipedian have to follow without discussion first. This is our way of democracy, hope you can understand and be patient during the process.
- Cheers!--泅水大象 03:13 2005年1月13日 (UTC)
Thank you for considering the feelings of native Californians and the place names of the United States. We offer these suggestions to our colleagues working on the Chinese language versions of WIkipedia in a constructive spirit. We should all try to avoid ethnocentric expressions, regardless of the language. Please remember that English, Chinese, French, Spanish, etc are world langauges and do not belong to one ethnic group or country. English is not only used in the UK, Chinese is not only used in China, French is not only used in France. Please remember that one language version is read by nationals of many countries, for example Chinese is not only read by so-called "華人". Do not make the mistake of the infamous Phoenix TV that could have been a very good station but has lost the support of the international community because instead of referring to itself as a 华语station, it insists on calling itself a 华人station, for political reasons obviously.
It is especially noticeable in the Chinse articles that there is a problem of ethnocentricity. It gives one the impression that the articles are written by the government of China, because they often use expressions like 海外華人,外国, 中外,etc.
请避免使用海外華人 海外華人來說 请避免以中國為中心填寫百科。请避免使用「內地」指中國大陸，[海外華人]等词语. 请避免用 [外国]指华人以外的其他民族，避免用[外国]指中国或台湾，香港以外的地区。。。谢谢。
我们Wiki 英语版本没有以英国為中，法语版没有以法国為中。 希望WIKI 华文版也能维持这个传统.
谢谢!
I think that is an excellent suggestion and conforms to the way of democracy on the other language versions of Wikipedia. We want to serve as a useful reference tool, with correct information, but need to take into consideration popular usage and terminology, even if incorrect or inaccurate. Regarding English translations of Chinese place names we have generally decided to standardize on the Pinyin system and include the popular names in parentheses. For Taiwan, we use the names provided by Taiwan government authorities with popular names in parentheses. That is why we put forward the suggestion for Chinese. Of course it is not a "rule" and we respect democratic principles. We are confident that the parties will reach a consensus on how to list and describe our city, and other places in the Chinese version
- Good Day!--[[User:Diego] 12:13 2005-01-14(UTC)
[编辑] "外國"、"FOREIGN FRIENDS WHO LIVE IN CALIFORNIA"、"住在加州的外國朋友們"
Suggestions from California (Diego)
Someone is talking about
"FOREIGNERS WHO LIVE IN CALIFORNIA" . What do they mean by "外國"?!
What do they mean by "外國朋友們"? Please understand that we are all colleagues working on an interesting project and that is not polite to refer to your colleagues as "foreigners" on wikipedia. We are all humans, world citizens. As an example, on the English wikipedia we do not call residents of Beijing "Foreign friends who live in Beijing"!
Please try to be more considerate.
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- First of all, please leave the signature and date after your massage, otherwise people get confused easily whom they talk to.
- Second, don't mix irrelative topics in this discussion. The usage of the word "foreigners" doesn't have any relation to the naming of San Francisco. You're blurring our focus. About your criticize, what did I mean by "外國"? Of course it means "FOREIGNERS TO ME" because it's MY OPINION when I post something on discussion page, not a concensus of all the Chinese wikipedian. In the beginning, I just tuned my tone to a more friendly form to pay my respect. There is nothing inpolite in my intention. If it's very insulting to you, it's ok, next time I'll use the term "Somebody from California" to refer you guys as you wish.
- By the way, if you're insisting "The name the authorities and governments choose and approve" is the first priority about the naming of a place (for example, ROC and Japan governments' attitude to China and Japan), I'll stick my opinion to the original title "舊金山" as long as SFGOV doesn't change their officially approved translation name on their city and county homepage (no matter it's human or machine translated!). Thank you!--泅水大象 03:36 2005年1月21日 (UTC)
I think that both sides should calm down. It would be best if all langauges refrain from using the term "foreigner", to refer to different nationalities from their own. Ie. Brits should not call Chinese foreigners and vice-versa. It is natural that natives of a place want to have their city/state presented accurately, whether from San Francisco, Peking, or Bangkok (which by the way is pronounced like "Krunghep" in Thai. I hope we can all resolve this harmoniously and remember that as residents of planet earth, none of us are foreigners, waiguoren, gaijin, etranger, etc..
Good day to you all.
Peter, Los Angeles, California, USA 2005-01-21T22:24Z
[编辑] Follow-Up MSG
This is only a note for our friends, I've already hold a discussion and vote on our village pump page, Wikipedia:互助客栈#條目名稱的選擇：舊金山. I'll keep you informed if there is any conclusion.--泅水大象 09:57 2005年1月14日 (UTC)
Thank you for the follow up and kind explanation. The discussion at Wikipedia:互助客栈#條目名稱的選擇：舊金山 is also very interesting. We very much appreciate the democratic decision to submit the issue to vote. Please clarify whether the voting open to everyone, to all registered members, or to administrators only? Again, thank you for taking the time to respond - we know you are very busy. Regards
- Please notice that, Chinese people have a different kind of view from others when using the word "外國人". We treat it as a friendly word with a kind of "friends from far distance" feeling. It's amicable. If we (Chinese) want to express the feeling of harshness, we will choose other words, which you might not willing to see at all. So, if there's anything in my post which is improper from your point of you, just talk to me with a gentle tone. Maybe there is some misunderstanding due to culture differances. Acute expression like someone from California used doesn't do any good to attend public repects to achieve your goal. On the controrary, you guys looks like overwhelming challangers to all the Chinese community, and it's definitely not welcoming.
- So, because the unfriendly attitude someone used, I decided not to help you correcting the title of this article anymore. Please go on by yourself. And, I suggest you guys using PROPER Chinese to express your point of view, since it's not English wikipedia here. By the way, I'm highly doubt that, is it a true concensus among all the San Francisco residents that "舊金山" is a unacceptable name of the city, or just a view from a small group of people. If you can't show any approve of your arguement (i.e. a result of a citizen referendum), I will say the wording San Francisco city government choose is the only OFFICIAL expression about this dispute. And obviously, they agree 舊金山 is an okay name we can call the city without problem!--泅水大象 17:53 2005年1月22日 (UTC)
from another Californian,
I think that both sides of this debate need to calm down. The San Francisco group needs to use softer language and avoid using large bold type. User Selelephant needs to understand that the Chinese language wikipedia does not belong to and is not created solely by "Chinese people", "taiwan people" or any single nationality. Therefore, terms like "外國人" should be avoided by authors, whether they are Chinese, American, or any other nationality.
Of course, the same is true in the English wikipedia, which does not belong to and is not created solely by "English people" "AMerican people" or any one nationality. Authors should avoid using terms like "foreigner", whether they are English, American, or any other nationality.
Finally, sensitity over place names should be respected and discussed in a friendly way. Not only San Francisco, but other names as well such as the Chinese translation of Vladivostok, Seoul, etc. The same for English translations of 北京，台北，etc.
Therefore, I respectfully suggest that all contributers work together in correcting titles of articles. No one should feel that comments are "overwhelming challenges to theri community"
[编辑] San Francisco should be called as "旧金山"
if San Francisco should not called as "旧金山", I thought China should be called as "ZhongGuo" or "Jhonghwa". Because China is not the most accurate name of "中国", it should be as close to the original as possible :P --Moses 22:05 2005年1月29日 (UTC)
If the sovereign government of China decided to change the translations of "中国", other governments would respect that. Just as in Japanese they use 中国, in French they use "Chine", in Thai "Chin" (transliterated), etc. However, they prefer to keep the English translation as "China" for political reasons. That is because the term "中国" is relatively new while "China" is much older and gives the (false) impression that there has been a single country with one name for thousands of years.
P --Prateet 12:03 2005年3月13日 (UTC)
- ya, maybe the other governments would respect that, but I thought the people would not. As what happened here. hehe --Moses 16:38 2005年3月14日 (UTC)
- Let me add my comments as a San Franciscan. 三藩市 is the most commonly used name within San Francisco, and the name used by many institutions in San Francisco, including the city government, the San Francisco Unified School District, and the City College of San Francisco. 三藩市 should be at least equal to 旧金山.
Here are some links, they all use 三藩市 as the name:
- [1] SFUSD translations, not machine
- [2] San Francisco Department of Public Health
- [3] Chinese Hospital of San Francisco
(Sorry for not using Chinese. I can't type Chinese on this computer, and my Mandarin is bad, so I can't use pinyin). --67.126.223.44 02:48 2005年7月30日 (UTC)
[编辑] 英文讨论
谁能整理成中文？毕竟这里是中文维基百科，英文的讨论应该让中文使用者都知道吧。--zy26 was here. 05:45 2005年10月12日 (UTC)
[编辑] 旧金山
美国国务院都在使用旧金山，Google查美国政府旧金山远大于三藩市……--zy26 was here. 05:45 2005年10月12日 (UTC)
[编辑] 舊金山市與舊金山灣區
建議把與舊金山市無關但是跟舊金山灣區有關的資訊移至舊金山灣區條目。--Will74205 08:39 2005年10月22日 (UTC)
