Talk:3rd United States Infantry Regiment

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Contents 1 Requested move 1.1 Discussion 1.2 Result 2 For the umpteenth time: It is NOT the US 3d Regiment, it is the 3d US INF Regiment! 3 Howling with laughter 4 Partial Overseas Deployment

[edit] Requested move

Comment. I noticed that the user who made this move request on the Requested moves page neglected to add a move template and discussion section to this article, so I took the liberty of adding it myself. If this is incorrect, please fix as needed.
-,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 21:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose, but would support U.S. 3rd Infantry Regiment, however it does not seem necessary at the moment unless all US regiments are to be renamed this way. Philip Baird Shearer 10:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose, though would support moving to U.S. 3rd Infantry Regiment, to fit the scheme most other units are named in Wikipedia: "[Country] [Number] Infantry Regiment". Halibutt 02:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

No... I never said change it to the US 3rd Infantry Regiment; I am asking that the name be reverted back to its correct (meaning the actual name of the unit), which is the 3rd US Infantry Regiment, which is what the article was called until someone switched it. The 'US' portion of the unit name is a modifier and it is an actual part of the official name, not an arbitrary set of initials. The 'US' denotes that this particular "3rd regiment" is/was a Union unit, as opposed to a Confederate unit. I'm speaking from the vantage point of a soldier who served in this unit for three years. I immediately contested the change from the original (when it switched to 3d Infantry Regiment -- which is incorrect) on these grounds. Ryecatcher773 18:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

• Comment. Could this be speedy moved to 3rd US Infantry Regiment, since Wikipedia prefers the US abbreviation for United States? BTW - I took a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (military units), but it didn't help much in this case. In any event, 3d in the existing title does not seem like a proper abbreviation for third.
  -,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 23:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: A move to 3rd US Infantry Regiment would be more concise. Support the above requested move with reservations. The title should include "US" or "United States." But the regiment itself [1] uses the Commonwealth English abbreviation "3d" instead of the American English "3rd." However, "3rd" is more appropriate for what is clearly an American topic (see: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English).
  • I stand corrected on the issue of 3d. With regard to the move itself, I don't know enough about the subject to make an informed vote, so I'll remain neutral for the time being (I somehow got caught in the middle of this, but might as well stick around to see how it turns out). (BTW - you might want to sign your message if you want your vote counted; admins are pretty persnickety about that sort of thing.)
    -,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 09:54, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

  3d is not Commonwealth English. In the UK "3d" would mean "3 pence" under the old Pounds Shillings and Pence (LSD). The abbreviation d. comes from the Roman denarius and was used until Decimalisation in 1971. See [History of the English penny]. There are some other U.S Units designated this way at the moment eg 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment but there are no AFAICT thirds designated that way in the British Army or in pervious lists of regiments see Category:British Army regiments. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

• Comment see Category:Units of the U.S. Army I would suggest if you want to put US in that you style it U.S. 3rd Infantry Regiment as is U.S. 15th Infantry Regiment but the category:Regiments of the U.S. Army does not seem to use any standard at the moment. Other categories like Category:Infantry divisions of the United States have been done this way. Philip Baird Shearer 01:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose All regiments and units should be correctly referenced by their official titles. The title for this regiment is 3d United States Infantry Regiment. This page should be moved there with appropriate redirects for every other variation on the name. --Bob 22:24, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Result

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. WhiteNight ^{T | @ | C} 03:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] For the umpteenth time: It is NOT the US 3d Regiment, it is the 3d US INF Regiment!

Look, I speak as a former member of the Old Guard, and I can tell you with 100% sureness that the name of official name of the unit is the Third U.S. Infantry Regiment. Not the US 3rd, not simply the 3rd Infantry Regiment, but the 3rd (3d) US Infantry Regiment. Please fix this. Thank you. Ryecatcher773

I'll second Rycatcher's lament. If you want the official names of US Army units, go look at the names on the Center of Military history's website. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 05:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk to the WP:MILHIST, as I guess they have set up those standards. See Category:Regiments of the United States Army and note how all regiments are at U.S. # Inf Reg and not # U.S. Inf Reg. – Elisson • T • C • 12:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I've posted a message here, so, please solve the conflict with them before making any further moves. – Elisson • T • C • 12:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Elisson: that may be the way wikipedia structures it, but after several years in the US army I can tell you that the proper name for THIS regiment is in fact 3d US Infantry Regiment. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 19:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't really care where this article is, I just care for consistency. If this article should be moved, then all articles on US regiments should be moved. But before there is consensus for that, let's keep it this way. Either way, the discussion has started here, so go there and post your opinions. – Elisson • T • C • 19:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the point. Consistency is not the issue, accuracy is the name. If it's # US Inf Rgt., then that's the way the wikientry should be. If its US # Inf Rgt. then that's the way it should be. Consistency should not come at the cost of getting the name wrong.⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 03:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree on this point. Just because the majority of the folks in my town are called Smith, but I'm a Jones, should my name be changed to Smith for the sake of consistency? Just because Harry S Truman didn't have a middle name but most of the U.S. presidents did, does that mean we should invent one for him so his Wikipedia article can look like everybody else's? And that's my point. You're missing the forest for the trees, Elisson. Most of the U.S. units don't have the U.S. included in their name because it wasn't necessary to include it when those units were created--the U.S. designator is/was assumed. However, when the 3d US Inf Reg was created, along with the other units of its time, the U.S. designator was absolutely necessary given that two armies existed within the confines of the United States at the same time and they had to be distinguished between Union units and Confederate units. The Confederate army went away of course, but that doesn't mean the original name of the Union units changed, and that includes the 3d United States Infantry Regiment. The only reason more units don't have that specific designator within their official name is because most of the Union army units existing during the Civil War were eventually merged with other, newer units or disbanded entirely, causing the name to be deleted from the USA registry.

The only reason the U.S. designator is attached to the other American units on Wikipedia is because it is an international encyclopedia and the U.S. has to be in there somewhere to distinguish it from units from other countries. Because the U.S. is not a part of the units' official names, it is tacked on at the beginning of the title for simplicity's sake--otherwise it would change the name of the unit to something that is not its name. Accuracy is Wikipedia's goal, not consistency, especially where "consistency" would result in inaccuracy. Changing the official name of the unit just because another unit's name doesn't look the same is silly. You can insist that my name be changed to Smith, but Smith isn't my name so I'm not changing it for your benefit: the same concept should apply to military units. These units are not identified by just a random bunch of words and numbers that can just be changed at random; they have a very specific name, a specific name that doesn't ever change based on a whim and the need for things to look "prettier." Thus, for the same reason that the U.S. can't go in front of the 3d US Inf Reg, the U.S. can't go in the middle of the other American units on Wikipedia. If it makes Wikipedians feel better, the other units can have U.S. in parenthesis after the name, and that would make clearer that the U.S. is not part of its official name, but it is part of the United States Army/Armed Forces. Shoot, you could even tack on a (U.S.) on the end of the 3d US Inf Reg so it looks like 3d United States Infantry Regiment (U.S.) and thus looks like the other units, too. It's redundant certainly, but it's a whole world better than changing its name entirely for no discernable reason.--ScreaminEagle 17:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the reason for the use of US in a unit designator on the level below Divisions is three fold. First of all, to separate the Regular Army and Reserve units from the National Guard units, secondly to identify Union units from Confederate units, and finally to identify US units from units of other national forces. This is especially true for most conflicts the US was involved in since World War I, and also for situations where US units are stationed jointly with units of other national forces. As to the placement of the term US in the unit name, and the use or non-use of the unit's branch identifier, this is a complex issue. There is no single standard as to where to place the US, except for all units created since World War I. All Pre-WW-I units decided for themselves where to place it, and was stuck with that placement once they were made official at the time of World War I. Prior to World War I, Brigade was the highest strategic unit placed in the field, and - most often - it was Branch Immeterial unless it was branch-heavy. For example, the unit that General Pershing commanded on the Mexican Border was the 8th United States Brigade. It was Branch Immeterial because it was organized along the lines of today's Divisions, and units were attached and detached as necessary. For example, when George Patton arrived at the 8th Brigade in 1915, he was on assignment to the 8th US Cavalry Regiment, but was attached to the 15th US Cavalry Regiment which was preparing to rotate to the Philippines as a replacement for the 8th, which was rotating in. He participated in the farewell formation and parties for the 15th, and then reported in to the 8th for his assignment as Paltoon Leader. The idea of Brigades being permanently of one branch or other did not come about until World War II when the Square Division - with its three component Brigades of four Regiments was streamlined to three Regiments, with the Brigades used for non-divisional assignments. The idea of Regiments designated as just Regiments - and not Infantry Regiments dates from the time when there were no other type of Regiment, and it was slow to dissapear. When Regiments were assembled in the other Branches, they started life with their branch designation in the name. Infantry Regiments followed suit, but slowly. Divisions had a similar life - Cavalry Divisions were always Cavalry Divisions, but Infantry Divisions did not gain the designation until World War II. - SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 19:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Howling with laughter

I see that among the battle honors for the Spanish American War is a streamer for East LA. If this actually came from the regimental website, then I can tell that attitudes in the ranks are no better now than when I was training Death Company new d***s for ceremonial qualification almost thirty years ago. My sides are still hurtin'... TOGS! Hotfeba 00:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW, old folks remember that 2nd was often rendered as 2d and 3rd rendered as 3d with no confusion when everybody was still using manual typewriters here in America. Hotfeba 00:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Partial Overseas Deployment

Should there be mention in the article of the deployment of D Co. of the President's Escort Battalion (1-3rd US Inf) overseas? To the best of my knowledge, the entire battalion has been exempt from overseas deployment since World War II ended as its tactical mission has been since then the defense of Washington DC (the biggest selling point for infantrymen looking to transfer in for a stable 3-year tour of duty). Perhaps this partial deployment is indicative of how stretched the entire Army of the United States is with its extended deployments in Iraq and elsewhere. The Old Guard has always had a tight schedule with the diplomatic requirements of welcoming and departure ceremonies for foreign dignitaries (can't dis the digs) and a large number of burials in Arlington National Cemetary as well as numerous cemetaries off-post (even in peacetime), and being short an entire line company must be a great strain on the rest of the battalion. Hotfeba 17:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)