Talk:Arthur Sullivan

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit) Decent article but inline cits are required, and the extensive "Works" section should be shunted off elsewhere. Moreschi 18:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Pirates Overture

Intrigued to read about G Toye's rewritten Pirates Overture. I have not seen this mentioned anywhere else. Interested to know chapter and verse. Tim riley 23 April 2006.

Toye himself wrote a letter to The Gramophone (February 1932 issue):

When we revived Ruddigore an Overture of mine was substituted for the existing one, which incidentally contained a tune which was being omitted in our production of the opera.

This Overture is the one now played before the opera, and is recorded on H.M.V. DB4005. I also substituted a new Overture for Pirates, which seemed to require it. Whether these Overtures have more merit than the old ones is a matter which posterity can judge for itself.

It's quoted on the web here. Marc Shepherd 15:45, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Potential duplication

There is quite a bit of duplication between this article and the Gilbert and Sullivan article. It would probably be appropriate if material related to the collaboration were on the latter page. This page would focus on Sullivan's background and accomplishments as an individual. Their collaboration would be described only briefly here, making reference to the 'G&S' article where the details would reside. Marc Shepherd 20:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thespis score

What is the basis for the story of the score of Thespis turning up and then getting burnt? All the books on Sullivan I've read agree that the score has been missing since Sullivan's day. Wilus

There is a rumor that a copy of the Thespis vocal score was in the Chappell warehouse that was destroyed by fire in the early 1960s. But as it is only an unverifiable rumor, it does not belong here. (Marc Shepherd 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Sullivan's pit orchestra

The paragraph about size of the pit orchestra lists "2 trombones". I seem to recall that the joke of Nanki-Poo being a second trombone was a barb by Gilbert at Sullivan for wanting or needing a bigger orchestra. Would that not indicate that there was but a single trombone in the Savoy pit?

That's an old story, but untrue. All of the Savoy Operas from The Sorcerer onwards were written for two trombones (Marc Shepherd 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Sullivan's solo career

...Is it just me, or is it damn weird that there's more information on Sullivan's Solo career in Gilbert's article than in Sullivan's? *sigh* Well, best get to work.... Adam Cuerden 06:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sullivan's use of horns

"Sullivan used horns crooked in many different pitches" - Surely that's impossible? This was well after the use of Valve Horns. To be using crooks would be a ridiculous throwback. Adam Cuerden 06:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this needs corrected. Sullivan wrote in the old style, for horns crooked in many pitches, but the actual players would have had valved horns. Marc Shepherd 22:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The current edit says:

Sullivan used horns crooked in many different pitches, and treated them rather like Brahms, with little chromatic language and economically. Sullivan's orchestration was delicate and concise (though never boring). Iolanthe has some interesting quotes of a Bach fugue (played by clarinets and bassoon) in one of the Lord Chancellor's patter songs.

The statement that Sullivan used horns crooked in many different pitches is definitely wrong. And who said that Sullivan treated the horns "rather like Brahms"?

I'm also not aware of any source that describes Sullivan's orchetration as "delicate and concise (though never boring)." Much as I love Sullivan, to say that he is never boring is an exaggeration. That's the trouble with sentences containing the word "never." All you have to do is point out one counter-example, and the statement is disproved.

And are there "quotes" (plural) of a Bach fugue in Iolanthe's patter songs? In whose opinion are they "interesting"?

I've finally removed the statements in the "Orchestration" section that were unsourced. They were there with "cite needed" for quite a while, and no one was able to substantiate them. Sam added an {{expand}} tag, but I think this is quite unnecessary. As it is, this article is over-long by Wikipedia's standards. Every section of the article could be expanded, but I don't think any of it needs to be.

Anyhow, in my view all three sentences should be deleted, or appropriately supported. Marc Shepherd 13:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rose of Persia and Emerald Isle

Marc has put up pages for these operas. Now every Sullivan opera has a Wiki page. Thanks to Marc, Adam and everyone else who contributed! --Ssilvers 03:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other works

I've revised the section on the collaboration with Gilbert. There's a stub section for "other works," which needs to be filled in. I think it's open whether it should be topical (by type of work) or chronological. Marc Shepherd 22:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I added some info on Martyr of Antioch into the G&S collaboration section, and I thought that the best place for The Zoo was to discuss it in the G&S section--see if you like how I did it. Then, since the "Beginnings" section has info on Sullivan's major non-Gilbert works up to about 1873, I added an brief overview of his non-G&S works *thereafter* up to the mid-1990s, which segues nicely into the morbidly-titled "Decline and Death" section. But the "other works" section could still certainly stand to be beefed up a lot. Regards, Ssilvers 02:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Structure of Article

As now organized, I think the article gives a reasonably complete account of Sullivan's career as composer. The major gap is that it says nothing at all about his personal life. His activities as a music educator and conductor should also be given a bit more focus, since these had a lot to do with his knighthood.

It may make sense to put no more than a couple of paragraphs on the collaboration in the individual bio articles, leaving those articles to talk about what each man did alone. The Gilbert and Sullivan article, then, could give the high level history of the collaboration once, and the pages for the individual operas could talk about those operas in detail. A very prominent "See also" could direct the reader in the Gilbert or Sullivan biography to the joint Gilbert & Sullivan page.

In discussing Sullivan's other works, I don't think it's helpful to mention everything he wrote in a "kitchen sink" fashion. As there is already a complete list of all the major works at the bottom of the article, I would suggest that a work should be mentioned in the narrative only if there is something more to say about it than its mere existence. Marc Shepherd 14:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, it looks better and more accurate now. Is there more that should be said re: Sullivan's "Orchestration"? That section seems a bit spare. Ssilvers 01:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The right way would be to look up what various sources have said about Sullivan's use of the orchestra. The section, by the way, isn't about Sullivan's orchestration in general, but only in the Savoy Operas. Marc Shepherd 13:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recreating "Magic"

At the end of the collaboration with Gilbert section it says Utopia and Grand Duke did not "recreate the magic of their earlier collaborations." Isn't that subjective? It would be better to say "were not commercial successes." 69.34.177.74 01:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sullivan and money

Under Personal Life, the discussion is all about Sullivan's amorous side. I think a section needs to be added about Sullivan's relationship with money. He was frequently in need of money. Also, apparently, just before Iolanthe, his bankers went belly-up, and Sullivan lost everything. Can someone add something? -- Ssilvers 16:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I also think that his relationship with Fred Sullivan's children needs to be included. After Fred's death, he left a large family behind, and the composer considered them his personal responsibility. He became practically a foster-father to Fred's eldest son, Herbert, who did not accompany the rest of the family to California. Marc Shepherd 22:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burial wishes

Did Sullivan request that he be buried in Bromley cemetery or Brompton cemetery? Both are listed in different parts of the article. Is one simply another name for (or subsection of) the other? A couple of quick Google searches for the phrase "Arthur Sullivan" coupled with "Bromley cemetery" and "Brompton cemetery" produce more results for the latter, so I am assuming that Brompton is correct. This is supported by the fact that the Brompton Cemetery article lists one of Sullivan's relations as being one of its occupants. All the same, I'm not going to remove either cemetery reference from this article until someone more knowledgeable than I can look into the matter. NathanDahlin 21:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I do realize that Sullivan was actually buried in St. Paul's Cathedral at the Queen's request, but it states that he had asked to be buried with his family. NathanDahlin 21:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. It's Brompton. I've fixed the article. Marc Shepherd 22:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baronet?

I was browsing through the National Portrait Gallery's listing for Sullivan when I noticed they list him as "Sir Arthur Sullivan, Bt." Most all of us know he has been knighted, but was he actually a baronet as well? If so, it's news to me.

It's gotta be an error. He was no Baronet. Marc Shepherd 13:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA?

Thank god that Sullivan's rather smoother creation has led to a pre-cited article. This should be nowhere near as painful as W. S. Gilbert - at worst, it'll be a simple change from Harvard to footnotes.

I think this article looks good, and am so sending it down the FA trail to follow Gilbert, starting with GA. Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent article: the only slight problem is that it doesn't appear to have any inline citations, which are now mandatory for GA. Harvard referencing, however, is perfectly acceptable on Wikipedia. Moreschi 17:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I really wish you would hold off on the citation project on this. We have not yet put up articles on Gilbert's most notable plays. Why not finish Gilbert off before we turn to Sullivan? As Moreschi says, this is OK for now (maybe it is really an A-class article?). -- Ssilvers 19:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I have NO INTENTION of doing another citation project any time soon. However, this has quite a number of cites already, and may be enough - what do you think, Moreschi? In any case, asking for the review and being rejected does not mean we must immediately devote all resources here. Adam Cuerden ^talk 20:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Just checking this over: there's really nothing to add in terms of cites to "Reputation and Criticism" - all the quotes are so darn thorough! HOWEVER, "Musical quotation" is basically a list of unverified assertions that needs first trimming and then citing, or else GA reviewers will freak out. "Life and Career" is less urgent, but "Personal life" needs one or two cites, and surely that should be moved in with "Life and Career" anyway? What's the difference between your "Life", and your "Personal life", pray? Obviously, the "works" section needs to be shunted off to a child article, as was done with Gilbert.Oh, and lastly, the lead is too short for an article of this length - exapnd the lead and trim the rest. That'll get you through GA if you want to have a proper go first time round. Moreschi 21:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this isn't a good time for the Sullivan push, then. We're all a bit burned out from The Gilbert one - next month, maybe? Adam Cuerden ^talk 21:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now, would you please help me put up some B-class (or at least very good "start" class (w/cats, refs + links) - No stubs, please) articles on the redlinked Gilbert plays? Having gone all fancy on W.S.G., I think we owe him that. I expanded The Martyr of Antioch today, and I'm gonna finish the last of the German Reed pieces tonight. -- Ssilvers 22:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I claim Wicked World: I have the playscript AND the short story. Or, well, the short story now, playscript by Saturday. Adam Cuerden ^talk 07:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, Wicked World is good. You also mentioned that you like Charity. -- Ssilvers 14:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Symphony

I rather think it may be wrong to say sans phrase that Sullivan wrote the symphony in 1866. Jacobs (ch 4) states that it is generally assumed that Sullivan completed it in 1863 (though Jacobs himself is not so sure) although it had to wait until 1866 for a performance.Tim riley 11:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/articles/kresky/kresky.htm - This will be useful later.

[edit] Eugene d'Albert and the "Patience" overture

I’m having some difficulty in confirming that Eugene d’Albert wrote the overture for Patience. The only Google citation I can find is here, which is merely a customer review of a CD: "The overtures Sullivan DID write himself (especially the "Yoemen" [sic] overture) are fine pieces - as is the overture to "Patience" (written by a very young Eugene d'Albert) ..."

We do know that d’Albert was a pupil of Sullivan, and we do know that d’Albert arranged the piano reduction for the Vocal Score of ‘’The Martyr of Antioch’’, to accompany the chorus [1].

However we also know [2] that "although in his youth he studied in London with Ernst Pauer, Ebenezer Prout, John Stainer, and Arthur Sullivan at what is now the Royal College of Music, he considered his work during this period more or less worthless. ... It appears that when Sullivan heard that the Philharmonic had engaged d'Albert, he threatened not only to remove his own name from the membership, but to do all he could to induce the Queen and the Prince of Wales to withdraw their patronage. However, he was persuaded to alter his plans. Sullivan helped d'Albert in every possible way when he was a student; obtained engagements for him at the Popular Concerts, the Crystal Palace, etc; and when d'Albert went to the Continent gave him introductions to all the Courts. Yet on his return, a year afterwards, d'Albert not only refused to call on Sullivan but threw contempt on him and all Englishmen."

In light of this opinion of the English, it seems unlikely Eugene d’Albert would have written the overture.

But the plot thickens. Eugene’s father Charles Louis Napoleon d’Albert (1809-1886) made many piano and other arrangements of songs from the G&S operas - [3] and [4]. I think this makes Charles a much more likely candidate for the Patience overture than Eugene.

Patience was premiered in April 1881, when Eugene was 17 and Charles was 72. Eugene was indeed very precocious, writing an overture of his own which was premiered on 23 June 1879, when he was only 15. So it's far from impossible he could have done some arranging for his teacher Sullivan a couple of years later. But none of the reference books I have access to say anything about it, and neither does Google. Similar lack of results for Charles d'Albert.

I suggest we remove the Eugene reference until we can find out something more definite. JackofOz 02:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Oz. I sent the question to SavoyNet. Let's see what they come back with. Give it 36 hours. BTW, if you are interested in G&S, please join the G&S Project at WP:G&S. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 05:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Amazing coincidence. I've just taken the action I proposed above, before seeing your post. I'll leave it as is now, and reinsert it if proof is forthcoming. JackofOz 05:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Btw, I generally prefer to work alone rather than in collaboration. I know that many heads are better than one, but that's just me. I like to spread my joy lightly amongst the 3,000+ articles on my watchlist. Thanks for the info anyway. :) JackofOz 05:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, fair enough. While you were writing this, I was re-inserting. If you don't mind, just give it 36 hours, and then if I can't come up with a cite, I'll remove it. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 05:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Generally my philosophy is, rather than leaving something in place in the hope of quickly finding a citation, I remove it until a citation can be produced. But I'm OK with this one, given the 36-hour window. Eugene d'Albert is hardly on the top of most people's interests, so there's little risk of grossly misleading the world. :) JackofOz 05:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. As you noted, Eugene did the piano reduction for The Martyr of Antioch in 1880, shortly before Patience (opera) was written. Sullivan often had his students compile the overtures to the G&S operas, so it would follow his usual form for Eugene to have arranged the Patience overture (this would not be inconsistent with his later counting this work as "...worthless"). However, SavoyNet has a number of active scholars reading, and so I hope to get a good citation one way or another within the 36 hours. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 06:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

In his 2002 book, Gilbert and Sullivan: A Dual Biography (which is considered to be one of the best biographical research pieces on G&S) Michael Ainger says that Eugene did the Patience overture (p. 195). I added the cite to the article, with a short quote in the footnote. I have also now been assured that (1) Charles was a dance master/actor/pianist who had little or no experience with orchestration, and that his arrangements of Sullivan music are dance quadrilles; (2) Eugen, a child prodigy, had been studying with Sullivan since the age of 15; and (3) Dr. David Russel Hulme, a noted Sullivan expert, was certain that it was in Eugen's handwriting, as reported in his doctoral thesis at U. of Wales (which I do not have a copy of yet). Best wishes. -- Ssilvers 18:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Ssilvers. That clears this up nicely. JackofOz 02:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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