Wikipedia talk:Article size

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1 | 2

Contents 1 Archiving 2 Current status? 3 32KB page size limitations 4 "Attention Span" 5 Biographies - exception to the rule? 6 How do you find the readable page size?

[edit] Archiving

I've re-archived this talk page because 1) the old page included a dead/inaccurate link to the first talk page archive, and 2) part of the talk page archive was moved to another article page, which is at MfD. Also, an unsigned quote had been added to the top of the page, which is now archived. Here is the talk page version before I archived. Sandy (Talk) 10:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current status?

It's unclear whether there is still any discussion on this topic at all, or where to contribute if there is. The archived pages suggest severe disagreement with suggested 'enforcement' of guidelines, with apparent consensus to "delete" the entire matter.

My interest has to do with the 'warning' that we receive when working on the Contract_bridge_glossary, that piece being about 153 KB in its socks, as of today. The glossary is a key feature of the Contract bridge Project, and a natural starting place for someone looking into the subject, or simply looking for a reference source. It also operates, to a degree, as a table of contents to the project's work. And it relies heavily on internal linking, by (if I may) definition.

Over the past week I've re-written the in-page links of the glossary, so as to link directly to the terms in question, rather than to alphabetical section heads (e.g., 'ruff' now links to 'Ruff' rather than to 'R'). I've also indicated which links (bold-faced) lead to new pages, whole articles devoted to specific terms and topics, as a notice to dialup viewers.

In practice, this makes the page 'smaller', easier for viewers to work with by far.

As for the subject here—size of pages, especially with regard to browser and internet connection limitations—breaking up the glossary would in practice make the page 'larger', since proportionally more of the links would require loading separate pages, and these when loaded would interact more slowly than by this method.

The question of size here, I think, should focus on the writing, its clarity and conciseness, with clear links to more expanded discussions. If well done, it can result in a form of 'browsing' that loses track of time, or makes the most use of it, as preferred. FutharkRed 05:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you would provide a link to the article you're discussing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I do get carried away. Obviously, I should "focus on the writing, its clarity and conciseness", as per my own advice! And obviously, after a while, people lose track of where I started, which was with the Contract_bridge_glossary article way back in the second paragraph. Should I just mention it, as above, or actually link to it, as Contract bridge glossary?

As a comparable matter, The Bridge World online glossary, much more extensive (so far), is split into 24 separate alphabetical pages, with no links at all between definitions, which seriously limits its usability/usefulness/usage--all three. They are considering a change. FutharkRed 09:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

A glossary is not intended to be read from start to end. Thus there are no stylistic/readability concerns for the above example. My only concern would be download time for those with slow modems and cell phone browsers. --mav 23:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 32KB page size limitations

The article reads that by June 2006, Firefox is the only commonly used browser which cannot handle the bug with pages with more than 32KB of content. At the moment, I don't seem to have such a problem with Firefox (version 2.0) so I think that statement can be removed. Please reconfirm me about this prior to editing the text. huji—TALK 14:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

According to the fact that the article itself ruled out the mid-2006 bug with Firefox with Google Toolbar, I removed the statement in question. huji—TALK 18:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Attention Span"

Unless someone has good evidence that the "attention span" of the "average adult" has an "upper limit" of 20 minutes, that section needs to go. I added ^{[citation needed]} quite some time ago, but no further evidence has been forthcoming. In fact, the "attention span" of even the same individual (much less the entire population) varies widely, depending on that person's interest in the subject (as well as external factors, such as fatigue). If an article is interesting and well-presented, it could hold your attention for hours. If not, your attention span could be only a few seconds. Trying to come up with a single metric for "attention span", given the wide variance in Wikipedia users, topics, and article quality, is probably not a good way to proceed.

130.126.165.236 22:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Good work, I thought the exact same thing when I read it sounded like amateur psychology or some kind of new theory someone was trying out here on WIkipedia. Quadzilla99 06:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it's gone. If someone actually comes up with a credible cite, put it back -- but I don't think that's going to happen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.126.165.236 (talk) 19:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

Glad it's gone, never liked it. —Doug Bell ^talk 19:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if a cite comes up, honestly. This isn't an article, and attention span is not the best reason to keep articles down to a reasonable size. Mangojuice^talk 20:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

A cite is easy to find if you just search for it. Search google for "lecture attention span" and you will find articles like this that describe studies of attention patterns during lecture. Whether wiki articles are similar enough to lecture for the results to carry over is disputable, and whether attention span is relevant to articles is disputable, but there is a kernel of honest research available if you look for it. CMummert · talk 20:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

If you can find a study done with written material on subjects who were actively seeking out the material (rather than being passively subjected to didactic lecture material chosen by someone else) please put it in. I will note that the Lord of the Rings movies seemed to have no trouble maintaining audience engagement, despite being 3 hours+ in length. Besides, there's no law that says you have to read an entire article in one sitting. That's why we (in theory) have sections, right? Wikipedia is a reference source, not a novel. 130.126.165.236 21:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I would think that that part in the guideline where it says

"Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose."

should be removed for the same reason. The part that singles out science articles is also unjustified - wouldn't complicated philosophy, or arcane history, be equally difficult to read? CMummert · talk 23:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I edited that section to remove the specific reference to science articles. I thought that the old wording was choppy and not in a logical order, so I reordered the section and divided the material into paragraphs more logically. I believe that there is no change in the content or intention of the new wording, just a reordering to make the guideline easier to read. CMummert · talk 15:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biographies - exception to the rule?

I've noticed several biographies that are 100k

I don't really see how one could justify splitting up a biography into smaller portions, as long as the article is all biography. Some people have interesting and varied lives.

If one accepts the arguments above that "attention span" is not really applicable to the wikipedia (and I think the arguments are well made), and that dial-up, as a reason for short articles, is becoming less of a concern, might the wikipedia not at least make an exception to the rule for well-written biographies?

Andysoh 00:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really a hard and fast rule. It's just a guideline which is probably a good idea, but often isn't. If a long article is good for a topic, then it's good. --Gwern (contribs) 07:11 4 March 2007 (GMT)

Thanks Gwern! When I read the guidelines I found them just a little worrying, hence my slightly defensive comment here... Perhaps someone should add "If a long article is good for a topic, then it's good" into the guidelines for a bit of positive support, or, perhaps as I suggest, expand the 'occasional exceptions' to the guidelines (e.g. add biographies) with any necessary conditions you think important, in some way to make the contributer less worried?

Not to worry, just a thought. Andysoh 21:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How do you find the readable page size?

This page contains the advice: "To quickly estimate readable prose size, click on the printable version of the page, select all, copy, paste into an edit window, delete remaining items not counted in readable prose, and hit preview to see the page size warning."

But where? Where is the page size warning?

qp10qp 05:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The page size warning will be above the edit window, but only if the raw text exceeds 30k. See User:Dr pda/prosesize.js for a javascript tool. Instructions are on the talk page. Gimmetrow 00:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)