Talk:Catharism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
| This article is supported by WikiProject Religion. This project provides a central approach to Religion-related subjects on wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details. | ||
| Start | This article has been rated as Start on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
|
|
|
The opening para of the Cathar (ie not Catharism) article says that Catharism lasted for 'a short while'. In fact it lasted for about 200 years. The first recorded Cathars in the Languedoc are spoken of in the 11th Century. Monstegur fell in the mid 13th Century. Shouldn't this be looked at? Come to think of it, why are there two articles here - Cathars & Catharism - one of which is much longer and more detailed than the other? Shouldn't they be merged? ThePeg 12:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Cathars and Conspiracy Theory
-
- Should there be a reference here to the claims made by conspiracy theorists that
the Cathars allegedly believed in the secret marriage of Jesus to Mary Magdalane and their "Holy Bloodline"?
I realize that such things are all over the place, but at least a debunking of the claim would probably be relevant. I think there is some suggestion that the claim that they believed in a "mystical marriage" might be supported by historical evidence, but I'm only going by hearsay here. Anyone help?
- There is no such reference in this article, for a very simple reason. No one who has done even minimal reading is under the false impression that Cathars believed anything of that sort. Reading about Cathar views on marriage might set a misguided reader straight: E. Le Roy Ladurie, Montaillou: The Promised Land of Error, would provide some nourishment for the famished mind. It's available in paperback, so there's no excuse for not reading it, if one has even a passing curiosity about real Cathars. --Wetman 18:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
-
- The peg is right: two hundred years (arguably three) is hardly a short time.
- Wetman is wrong. The Holy Bloodline loonies did not make up the story about people in the Languedoc believing that there had been a relationship between Jesus & Mary Magdelene. There's a reference to it in the contemporary Song of the Cathar Wars (By the way E. Le Roy Ladurie was writing about a period some hundred years later than the start of the Crusade). The Song of the Cathar Wars is available in Occitan, French and English and would provide some nourishment for the famished mind. It's available in paperback, so there's no excuse for not reading it, if one has even a passing curiosity about real Cathars.)
- Does anyone know why this article is flagged as not neural, and who flagged it?
- I propose to amend the text & remove the flag unless anyone has some reasons not to Springald 16:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Good plan. des Vaux de Cernay also mentions the sexual relationship between Jesus & Mary - see this page for a reference.Gcp 20:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The article was vigourously opposed as being NPOV by various commentators who felt the article was over favourable to the Cathars and unfair on the Catholics.
Regarding the Cathars and Mary Magdelene, its worth remembering that the Cathars disapproved of all sexual congress so its unlikely that they would have believed that Christ would have been married to Mary Magdelene. On top of which they believed Christ was wholly spirit and without material form so its unlikely any sexual activity would have taken place. What is more likely is that they shared the Gnostic belief that Mary was either chief among the Apostles or at least equal to them. The Cathars were traditionally more sympathetic towards women than Catholic Christianity would have it. The Christ/Mary connection may well also have been an echo of the Gnostic Christ/Sophia connection but was probably thought of spiritually rather than physically. If any changes in the text happen over this issue these considerations should be taken into account.
The Cult of Mary Magdelene has always been widespread in southern France, even orthodox Catholics believing that she travelled to the Languedoc to spread the faith there (hence the Dan Brown theory that she settled there with Christ and sired the Merovingian Dynasty). The likelihood is that the Mary Magdelene/Southern France comes from echoes of Goddess-worship in the region in pre-Christian times. The Cathar region is full of Divine Feminine images -Rennes le Chateau, Lourdes, even the Pilar in Zaragoza across the Pyrenees. Its also the region where the Holy Grail legend really took off, the Grail being another Feminine image of receiving. Only a real Dan Brown Fruitloopian would take it all so literally. Spirituality resonates down through the ages and evolves and expresses itself as human religious feeling develops.
In answer to Wetman's comments about Cathar views on marriage, Montaillou was a Cathar outpost unearthed by the Inquisition almost a hundred years after the fall of Montsegur and thus not very representative. The ringleaders of that particular community were rather corrupt sexually, but no more so than the average Catholic clergyman of the time! ThePeg 23:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- "its worth remembering that the Cathars disapproved of all sexual congress so its unlikely that they would have believed that Christ would have been married to Mary Magdelene. On top of which they believed Christ was wholly spirit and without material form so its unlikely any sexual activity would have taken place." This is true, but on the other hand Cathars did like to develop dualist explanations; hence what Pierre des Vaux de Cernay says of their views on Jesus and Mary Magdalene -- he links it with the idea that there was both a spiritual Jesus and a fleshly Jesus -- may carry some conviction. However, it's definitely concubinage that Pierre is talking about, not marriage. Andrew Dalby 17:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
That's interesting and very possible. Am I wrong or did the Cathars believe that someone was substituted for Christ on the cross - Simon the Cyrene or someone? I may be mixing this up with another sect. ThePeg 18:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- The Mary Magdelene thing. Isn't the point that the supposed sexual relationship between Jesus & Mary is not a fiction dreampt up by Dan Brown or the Fruitloopians. It is mentioned numerous times by contemporary Catholic Inquisitors & chroniclers. This in itself is interesting and I'm not sure why it should not be mentioned in the article. There's no point arguing about what the Cathars might have thought or should have thought if we have documentary evidence of contemporary accusations.Gcp 19:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Well hang on, after the above discussion do you mean by this that a) the Catholics believed Magdelene and Christ were lovers, b) that the Catholics said that the Cathars believed they were or c) that they believed what Dan Brown believed ie that they were lovers and sired the Merovingian dynasty? Could you clarify a little? I would also like to know the sources. Also, should we have an article on the Fruitloopians. They're quite a interesting sect. :-) ThePeg 22:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- PoV: I just re-read the articles and can't see any pro Cathar bias - though I can see some pro Catholic bias. Could someone list the supposed points that are regarded as pro-Cathar POV otherwise it's not going to be possible to identify them, let alone deal with them Gcp 19:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
With respect to all parties, this article was flagged in part because of the evidenced pro Roman Catholic position of the lead editor Dominck That bias led in turn to a series of posts (now in archive) which had little or no substantive contribution to make for the creation of a serious scholarly article. As these archived posts remain, the AGC has been asking History departments in academic institutions to develop specific guidelines for students preventing them from citing these Wikipedia pages in assignments. Our position is the articles on Cathar or Catharism in Wikipedia are not an acceptable citation, even though it may lead one to a citable source. Middlebury College recently adopted this policy.
To be fair, Dominck withdrew gracefully, the commentaries have grown in stability and may yet reach such a mature perspective to rank alongside other articles about past and present religious movements thus qualifying for inclusion as a NPOV scholarly citation.
As for the Cathar/Mary talk; there is Mary, wife of Joseph and Mary Magdelene, we go with ThePeg on this. Conspiracy theories, flights of fantasy, unschooled comments and spurious remarks are precisely why these articles were marked.
Fruitloopians? Is this not the Cereal Cult that worships Dr. Kellog?--AGC Webman 16:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
A fascinating link, Webman. Notice on the ancient parchment the five sided star marking the proverbial spot? As every good Fruitloopian knows, the five-pointed star is the symbol of the eternal female, the paths of Venus etc etc. As the Fruitloopian Prophet Cocopoppe and his three disciples, Snappe, Crak-El and Poppe tell us, the true Divine Marriage of Christ and the Eternal Female is the ultimate answer to the salvation of the Universe. May the Weetabix Be With You. ThePeg 17:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Merging the two articles
Yes there should be a merging , but with an ever watchful eye from more experienced Wikipedians to ensure neutrality is upheld. For more details about our position on merging the two articles we have placed a statement on our website.AGC Webman 18:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, a dead sect and its followers are historically the same thing - there is only a need for different pages between belief and believers when there is a large scale of change in the nature of the believers in their history. Since Cathar history is relatively short, the two pages are thus redundant. That being said, I haven't the sources in my possession to accurately merge them myself! Rockfall 21:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Theology again
The theology of cathars seems a bit vague. I think it should be stated in clear and unambiguous language that the theology of the cathars was a dualist one, that is they believed in the existence of two gods, the good god of the heavens or spiritual world, and the bad god, oft given the name satanael, of the corporeal world. This is the basis of the heresy which the catholics so vehemently and violenlty opposed. If this is accepted then it is reasonable to trace the origin of dualist theology and thus the cathars, back through Bulgaria, past Mani to Zororaster; unless of course its is suggested that the bogomils have no intellectual or theological antecedents and that their theology was discreetly their own. Smileyc 14:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Even this isn't quite right. The Cathars were what is known as 'mitigated dualists'. 'Mitigated dualists believe in two warring powers in the universe but one is lesser than the others. This was the Cathars' belief. The being who created the world - Satan/Satanael/Lucibel/Lucifer - was a fallen angel and thus not as powerful as God, that was why, according to the Cathars, we could escape him through Christ's help. Aboslute dualists believe in two equally balanced Gods. This wasn't the Cathar's view. It was Mani's though. ThePeg 22:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Responses to The Peg & Smiley
- 1)Re Mary Magdelene - what we know for sure through several sources is that the Catholics accused Cathars of believing in a sexual relationship between Jesus & Mary. In some accounts Mary was Jesus' "concubine". This is in itself an interesting accusation because the same belief was current in the earliest period of Christianity.
- 2)Great idea about Fruitloopians
- 3)Mitigated Dualism. Both strands of Dualist thought got to the Languedoc. The Cathars of the Languedoc were initially Mitigated Dualists but later became Absolute (In Italy the two factions argued with each other until they were both exterminated)
- 4)By the way, in response to Smiley, the evidence is much vaguer than you seem to think. Also, I'm not sure why you imagine it OK to refer to the Cathar belief system or indeed any belief system as a "heresy". Accusations of heresy necessarily imply a POV.
- Gcp 18:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Err ok perhaps even for the discussion page i should have been more precise and indicated that the view that catharism is heresy is a catholic view. I would be interested to know what you mean by the evidence is much vaguer? Do you mean the claim that catharism is a dualist theology isn't supported by evidence? I'd be interested to read your views.
The use of the word heresy issue is an interesting one has been argued over on this site before. As I understand it the word 'heresy' has its roots in the Latin word for 'choice'. What's difficult is that technically speaking the word heresy doesn't have to be pejorative. The Cathars regarded the Church as heretical, for instance. It depends upon your POV. In this instance, it has to be remembered that the Cathars themselves had no name for their belief. They were simply Good Men and Good Women. If we refer to them as Albigensian or Cathar then we have to be aware that these terms were created by their persecuters who called their beliefs the Albigensian Heresy or the Cathar Heresy. Thus the use of the word in this context is the same. Re the Mary Magdelene thing. As the source is primarily Catholic we don't know the exact nature of what the Cathars believed on this subject. However, we do know that the early Gnostics believed that Mary was the woman who loved Christ and that she was one of the Chief Apostles (if not THE chief). We also know that later antinomian Christian movements talked a lot about her - cf the Sister Catherine Treatise, the Mirror of Simple Souls and the writings of Meister Eckhart (not antinomian but accused of being a heretic) - in these terms. Some of these other sources emerged from areas which had been centres of Catharism beyond the Langeudoc. Its possible that these ideas were part of the intellectual/spiritual climate of the era thanks to the Cathar presence in those parts (I'm talking here of the Rhineland and places like Cologne where the Rhineland Mystics and the Free Spirit movements took off). Its important to look carefully at what these mystics say about Mary - that she was the woman who loved Christ the most, that she loved Christ in the right way, that she had her own very female process of initiation into the Christian Mysteries. We also have to remember that in these contexts sexuality and sexual imagery is often absorbed in an extraordinarily visionary way into spirituality in much the same way that it is in the Song of Songs, as an expression of the marriage of the Male and Female in the Soul and between Mankind and God (again, very Gnostic) and between men and women in the flesh. For the later Mystics, the discussion of Mary Magdelene also includes women in a discussion of God and Christ in a way which the Church has traditionally excluded. This was not only progressive in that it counteracted the male bias and misogyny in the Christianity but also made it more comprehensive in our understanding of the world in relation to the Spirit. Its also, presumably, was particularly appealing to women of the time such as the Beguines. My point with all this? That the reductionist Catholic view of the Cathar idea of what Mary Magdelene represented would have been deliberately crude and unsympathetic. There would have been no effort to understand what the Cathars might have been saying. They would have said that another shocking thing about the Cathars was that they believed Christ experienced physical love with Mary. As I have tried to explore here, the truth would probably have been much more subtle than that. Unfortunately we will never know (short of seances) as we have no records of what the Cathars believed from Cathar sources. Finally, on the Fruitloopians. Having suggested the idea, I realise its hard to write about them. Any thoughts? ThePeg 12:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Gcp, would you like to help me write an article on the Fruitloopians? We could have some fun. :-) ThePeg 01:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- On the use of the word heresy, I think it does have perjorative connotations in English (You can still be tried for heresy). I think the key thing is consistency. I'd be happy to see Cathars and even Fruitloopians labelled as heretics as long as Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, etc are as well.
- On the "vaguer" business, I think it's important to remember that Cathar ideas varied over time and from place to place - so a lot of sweeping statements are not precisly correct. On the two flavours of Dualism good sources are Runciman, The Medieval Manichee, and Wakefield & Evans, Heresies of the High Middle Ages. Having said that, I think we can agree that all Cathars were Gnostic Dualists. Two examples of vagueness: not all Cathars called the bad god Sataniel; again take the statement "If this is accepted then it is reasonable to trace the origin of dualist theology and thus the cathars, back through Bulgaria, past Mani to Zororaster; unless of course it is suggested that the bogomils have no intellectual or theological antecedents and that their theology was discreetly their own." - Some serious scholars (I'm not one of them) disagree about the direct link back to Zoroastrians and do not necessarily identify the Bogomil link as the weak link in the chain.
- On the Mary Magdelene question, I don't have strong views but I do think an interesting point is that modern Fruitloopians did not invent the idea of Mary being Jesus's wife/concubine
- Re the discusion below about the early use of the term Cathar, another point I've always found fascinating is that Mani's family belonged to a sect called the Katheroi (literally, Cathars). Again no big interest in pushing it, but I find it an astonishing piece of information.
- Fruitloopian article: Great idea. Might take some time. Big area to cover.
- Gcp 19:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
-
- Well, true, you could say that Cathars and Catholics should both be classified as 'heretics', and that would be most consistent. You have to remember, however, that we are dealing with theological history. At the time that the Cathars were preaching and spreading (12-early 14th century), the status quo was the Catholic Church. Historians of the period, regardless of their personal beliefs almost always refer to the Cathars as "heterodox" and the Roman Church "orthodox". This is not a value judgement - merely a reflection what was considered mainstream at the time. In simple historical terms, it is easier to classify medieval groups such as the Cathars as "heretics". Note that some groups that come under the topic of medieval "heresy" were not in fact heterodox in their beliefs, merely unlicensed by the Papacy (such as the Patarini of Milan). Basically, while you could argue that it is a pejorative title, it is also the accepted historical term for these groups - more as a means of historical convenience - the groups had similar characteristics.
-
- On a related note: be careful when using Le Roy Ladurie in regard to Cathars. Montaillou was a village of the early 14th century that marked a revival of Cathar belief and was in a sense unrelated to the main movement that was extinguished in the Albigensian Crusade. Its value is more as a mircohistory, rather than a scope of Cathar belief. The sources were also written by a member of the Inquisition (and a future Pope), so draw what conclusions you wish. Rockfall 23:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
-
-
- "Well, true, you could say that Cathars and Catholics should both be classified as 'heretics', and that would be most consistent." It seems to me that it would be just as consistent not to refer to anyone as a heretic. This seems to be by far away the best solution - and one that most impartial modern historians now adopt. Following your favoured reasoning about the mainstream, perhaps you could let us know the exact date that you think we should stop referring to early Christanity as a Jewish heresy. Fruitloopian 16:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
-
GCP - That is a good, resonant coincidence re Mani. Even more coincidental is the name of the chief Sun God of the Etruscans, the original inhabitants of Tuscany which was also a centre of Catharism. The Sun God, the equivalent to Zeus and Jupiter was called Cathar. Given the fact that the Albigensian Christianity was very much a religion of Light (as is Christianity as a whole) this is a striking coincidence too. Quantum Physicist David Bohm always used to argue that the etymology of words revealed their true meanings and psychological links with the past. Well, there's some amusing evidence.
Rockfall - you're right about the Montaillou thing. I've pointed out a similar thing in the past. Montaillou is only partially representative of Cathar ideology. Interestingly, we know a lot about what happened to the Languedoc Cathars and something about the Lombardy ones but little about the Flanders/Rhineland ones or the ones in Spain...
Re the Magdelene thing. In the book Mary of Magdala by Mary R Thompson she points out that the mystery of Mary's relationship to Christ lies in part in the Greek word used to refer to her in the Gnostic Gospel of Philip, where she is referred to in the following way: "There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary, his mother, hs sister and Mary Magdelene, the one who was called 'companion'". The word for 'companion' in Greek is, she says, koinonos, which translates as 'partner' and 'consort' as well as 'companion'. The Gospel also talks about Christ kissing her on the lips. Now we don't know for sure whether the Cathars had access to these Gospels. What we do know is that they claimed an apostolic connection to the very early Church so its not impossible that they could have had access to similar documents or at least ideas. As I've written above, I reckon they did have some kind of access to them as these ideas crop up a lot in Cathar-influenced areas and movements at later times. The Thompson book is interesting as it argues that Mary of Magdala was an apostle and early church leader who, legend has it, came to the south of France (hence the Fruitloopian mother of Jesus' kids idea). Thompson, rather interestingly, resists the idea of Mary as mother and lover in that it reduces her status from apostle and leader. Interesting...
Finally, good to see a Fruitloopian finally speaking out on these pages. For too long the cult has been deemed heretical and has had to fear for its life. At last it can speak out without fear of reprisals. A historic moment.
And even more finally, can someone give me the reference for the original mention that the Cathars believed Mary was the wife of Christ? ThePeg 17:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- To The Peg: Good man. Several quick points (in a rush). Re the "...kissed her on the lips...". If I remember "lips" is a guess. There's actually a gap in the MS. (Almost too good to be true!). Re Etruscan god: you're winding me up, right? If not, reference greatly welcomed. Re Fruitloopian, there's not only a user but also already a Fruitloopian page that some editors are trying to get removed (heresy or blasphemy?). How do we oppose this? Re Montaillou - I think everyone agrees - no-one is claiming otherwise are they?Gcp 21:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- To Rockfall: In case it gets lost in the cascade of text, there is a question - in fact two questions - for you further up the page Gcp 21:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Gcp - yes, you're right, there is a gap in the manuscript. 'Lips' is a guess. As for the Etruscans, no I'm not kidding you. As the Etruscans used a non-Latin script its not literally spelt Cathar but it is pronounced that way. Nice coincidence, don't you think? Especially as there is a link between the Cathars and Tuscany. I've seen the Fruitloopian article. I'm pleased there's a user but I think the Wiki Inquisitors don't look kindly on the existence of the article. If Eckhart himself couldn't defend himself then I fear it will not last the duration. Re Montaillou - my reference is to a debate on an earlier discussion page. A user called Almarina used the Montaillou story as representative of the Cathars and their morality. Actually, if you're interested, check out the not unrelated Brethren of the Free Spirit article. They have a lot in common with the Cathars, although they don't share the view that Matter is Satanic. In fact their view on these things is closer to some of the Gnostic Gospels even than the Cathars. They too had an interest in the Magdelene.
To Fruitloopian - until Christianity became not specifically a Jewish sect it was exactly what you say, a Jewish heresy and was seen as such by the Jewish authorities. Once it broke out of the Middle East and travelled across the Roman Empire and beyond, picking up non-Jewish converts it became a religion in its own right. Interestingly, in the early days of Islam some Christian authorities saw it as a heretical Christian sect. So it depends on your point of view. ThePeg 14:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- Hi The Peg. Etruscans - fantastic. Shame about the Fruitloopian article. Thanks for clarification about Montaillou. Will certainly follow up on the Brethren of the Free Spirit (Good name!). Re comments to Fruiloopian: spot on. I read this as a good reason for avoiding referring to any religious group as heretical. Re your query above concerning Jesus & Mary being married, take a look at the blue box on this web page. Gcp 16:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- Regarding the Etruscan deity, her name is more correctly transliterated and pronounced Cautha (as best as we can tell - bear in mind that there is a lot of uncertainty about the Etruscan language); she seems to have been the daughter of the sun, and a solar deity, but should not be considered the equivalent of Zeus/Jupiter (who was not a sun god). She wasn't even, as far as we can tell, the chief solar deity; that was likely Apulu (the Etruscan name for Apollo). Also, there is no evidence of her being worshiped at all for over 1000 years prior to the rise of the Albigenses. So there's likely no connection. - Alan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.31.47.139 (talk) 22:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
Gcp - All good stuff.To continue the Magdelene debate - the interesting thing in the blue box you cite is that there was a gradual process of conflating several women in the Gospels into the role of Mary Magdelene (the woman taken in adultery, the woman out of whom seven evil spirits were purged, Mary of Bethany, sister of Martha and Mary of Magdala, who stayed by the Cross as Christ died long after the Apostles had fled and was the first to encounter the risen Christ). The Catholic church went through a gradual process of putting all these women together, which lead to Mary of Magdala being seen as a penitent prostitute. Confusion heaped on confusion. There's a lot of evidence - even in the Gospels - that the historic Mary of Magdala was as much an apostle/disciple and leader of the early church as Peter etc. In Acts she is on the Mount of Olives when Christ ascends after further instruction - just as she is in the Pistis Sophia. The Byzantines clearly thought she was important as will be seen from this Byzantine painting of the Ascension: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/Art/BArt1.jpg. We often forget that the Bogomils emerged from Byzantium & Middle Eastern traditions. The South of France had a long tradition of Feminine Worship. There's no reason why this whole Magdelene issue came from a synthesis of the two. ThePeg 11:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] First Council of Nicaea - 325 AD - Cannon 8 Concerns Cathars
There is a translation of the declaration of the First Council of Nicaea, 325 AD at:
http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum01.htm
FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA - 325 AD
CANON
"8. Concerning those who have given themselves the name of Cathars, . . ."
The implications here are that the Cathars existed at 325 AD in such numbers that the Council of Nicaea considered them a problem, apparently involved in/with the gnostic hereseys of Arius.
Thus the Cathars were around MUCH longer than a few hundred years in Southern France. 325 AD to 1200 AD gives 875 years as a minimum. More likley longer.
20:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)20:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)20:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)71.167.197.183 Bill Keck wjkeck3#yahoo.com
PS: I am not interested in "Da Vinci Code" issues, but rather Gnosticism & historical accuracy about Cathars.
These weren't the same Cathars. They were a different group. ThePeg 12:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
-
- Not only were they a different group, but the translation listed above is wrong. The group article 8 of the Council was speaking of are the Novatians.
Indeed so. Continued thanks to ThePeg for clarity. --AGC Webman 14:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- "These weren't the same Cathars. They were a different group." - I wonder how you know that. The translation is technically but not materially wrong. Perhaps you would like to reassess Bill's question in the light of this: "The name 'Cathari' had already been used to describe themselves by the Novation sects of Anatolia in the fourth century (See Epiphanius, Aversus Haereses p 505)" which I cite from Runciman, The Medival Manichee, Appendix III v. Cathar 16:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Cathar Cross"
I have changed the caption on the yellow cross illustration, since the symbol was by no means a Cathar one -- it was imposed on them (and all other heretics, not just Cathars) by the inquisitors. Cathars did not venerate the cross. I'm also not wild about the illustration itself, which seems like a generic cross rather than the one described in the sources. Given (Inquisition and Medieval Society) describes the cross as follows: "The vertical arm of these crosses was 2 and one half palms high while the transverse arm was 2 palms wide. The thickness of each branch of the cross was 2 and on half fingers. One cross was worn on the chest and one on the back between the shoulders." (p. 84) His reference is to Lea, Inquisition of the Middle Ages 1:468. I'd check where Lea got that (it doesn't seem to be in Bernard Gui), but my copy of Lea is at the office and I am not. Alaraxis 02:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC))
[edit] Theological Edits
The opening paragraph contained the following sentence: The fundamental doctrine of the Cathars that Roman Catholics regarded as heretical was interpreting the 'resurrection' as a doctrine of 'Rebirth', as against a physical raising of a dead body from the grave.
This strikes me as slightly misleading. The principal issue was the dualism of the Cathars (already mentioned a couple of sentences prior), which stated that all material things, including the body, were evil. The Cathar denial of bodily Resurrection (and, if this is mentioned, it might be useful to make explicit that they were talking about the Resurrection of the Body, which Christians believe people are going to go through at the end of time, and not about the Resurrection of Jesus) is a derivative issue – that is, it is the logical consequence of dualism (if the body is evil, we can’t have bodies in heaven). So the primary beef was over the dualism issue. I have altered the opening paragraph to reflect this.
I have also inserted a parenthetical clarification about Zoe Oldenbourg, who is widely recognized among Medievalists as inaccurate and having a pro-Cathar bias. For evidence, cf. Prof. Charles Wood’s review in Speculum 37 (1962), 645-7, in which he states:
“[S]urely no history, however popular, has the right to misuse its evidence in order to argue a thesis not in fact supported by that evidence. This is precisely the sin of Mme Oldenbourg, who, in her desire to glorify the beliefs and honour the martyrdom of the Catharist perfecti, has warped her evidence to such a degree that her book can hardly be considered true history.” - Alan 66.31.47.139 22:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I would agree with your first point - there was a lot more elements to Cathar theology that the Catholic Church objected to than their idea of Resurrection as happening in this life. Dualism was key, as was the rejection of the Old Testament God but the Church also disliked the giving of sacrements and holding of rites without pay and without the authority of the Church, nor did they like the Cathar readiness to allow women to become Perfectae and to preach and speak on an equal footing to men. Equally unpopular was the Cathar rejection of oaths to nobility or church and the anti-Catholic preaching. Most unpopular was the fact that the Cathars were quite simply the biggest spiritual threat to the Church and the fastest growing heresy in Europe with supporters among the best families in the Languedoc. In ither words, the Cathars were particularly unpopular with the Church because they were increasingly popular with the people.
In the end though, the article needs to be a lot more comprehensive on the theology of the Cathars than it is. Everyone has been moaning about it but clearly no-one feels qualified to correct it!
Re the second part of your post - you'll have to cite more than just one critic if you're going to dismiss Oldenbourg. I find this issue is treated like the Arab-Israeli conflict. People think there's a bias if anyone is criticised or anyone is praised. The fact remains that the scars of the Cathar Crusade are still in the Languedoc. Southern French defiance of the North still is partly fuelled by what happened and the region has recently embraced this part of its history. Of course, you can say that is economic. The Cathars are good business. But the region increasingly calls itself the Pays Cathars and has devoted a lot of time to researching the sect. If there is a bias in Oldenbourg's book its worth going into it in detail. Its hard not to read any account of the suppression of the Cathars without being horrified by what was done to them and the region. I've read O'Shea and Sean Martin's version of the story and others and I haven't found anything which dispelled this feeling. Please expand before changing the text!
One last note. On the Mary Magdelene thing & the 'two Christs'. The only thing I can find out about the dual Christs comes from the Gnostic Bishop Valentinus who believed that the two Christs were the same Christ at different phases. The earthly Christ was the Christ before the Baptism (in fact not the Christ at all as he hadn't been anointed yet). After his encounter with John the Bap when the Holy Ghost descended then Jesus became the Christ and took on his spiritual nature. The theory is that this is where the Cathars got the idea. The Cathar belief was that following Christ meant realising the Holy Spirit in oneself. In other words, by undergoing the same spiritual process of Christ - bodily 'death', spiritual 'resurrection' in this world - one became ready not only to do God's work here but achieve salvation and deliverance from reincarnation in Satan's Kingdom of Matter. This is why people believe that the roots of Esoteric Christianity from the Inquisition onwards come from the Cathars who transmitted it from the early Church. The thinking goes that the Esoteric Christianity of the Cathars went underground - into the Spiritual Franciscans, the Rosicrucians, the Brethren of the Free Spirit etc.
Its the Gospel of Philip which talks about the companion to Christ being Mary of Magdala. In fact the Gospel builds a female Trinity to the male Trinity of Christianity - Mary the Virgin Mother, her sister and Mary of Magdala. Whether this is literal truth or a way of expressing a female archetype to the male is up for debate. Whatever the case the Cathars clearly embraced the idea of a female energy to Christianity.
Til soon.
ThePeg 15:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Another interesting point about the issue of Resurrection etc. Paul is really clear in his epistles that the Resurrection is of the Spirit, that that which is corruptible ie Matter cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It was Ireneus who insisted that the Resurrection was of the flesh and made it an article of faith for the Church. This was because the early Christian Gnostics shared the Cathar belief in a spiritual Rebirth in this life. So in terms of Scriptural Justification the Cathars are closer to Paul than the Church. Similarly, its worth remembering that in the story of Nicodemus that Christ is very clear that there has to be a Rebirth 'in water and the Holy Spirit' before its possible to enter the Kingdom of God. So once again the Cathars were following scripture. ThePeg 17:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
