Talk:Character creation in City of Heroes and City of Villains

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So... in keeping with the examples given in the article, would Superman be a natural? --DDG 21:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Most aliens are natural if the rest of their race exibit such powers as the norm. --Zikar 22:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I would say no. Superman would be a science or a mutant. He came from another planet, he has powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men based on his exposure to yellow sun-light and low gravity. He didn't have to train to get the way he is. For naturals think of: Batman, Robin, Catwoman, Mr Terrific, Dr Midnight, Bucky, Punisher, Hawkeye, and Green Arrow. The real question is "Is Captain America a natural or a science?" -- ShortBus 9:53, 5 March 2006

Superman is neither science nor mutant. For instance, to be a mutant he would to have powers that where above and beyond that of the rest of his race. However any one of his race can gain the sort of powers he has. Likewise he isn’t science because his powers are not the result of a science experiment or accident (like being exposed to radioactive waste). Also remember that the official CoH aliens, the Kheldian Peacebringers are natural. --Zikar 20:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Not that this is a huge issue or anything, but I've been debating this in my head for a while, so I thought I'd chime in on the origin question. Would Superman be Science or Natural? As his article here asserts several times, Kryptonians' strength stems from irradiation by a yellow star. Technically, his super powers aren't native to his people on their home planet but are granted by exposure to our sun. Conceptually, it falls along the lines of say, The Fantastic Four, who are Science origin, but theirs was more of a one-shot deal. The initial exposure left them altered. In at least most versions of the story, Superman would lose his powers if he left the light of our solar system, and any other member of his race would gain the same strength if they were on Earth as well, which would imply it still falls under the blanket of his peoples' "Natural" abilities given the proper circumstances. There was no fundamental change that occurred in the way his body works.

Of course, the latest film, for one, throws out some of those conventions, but I'll leave that to your discretion. --ophidius 12:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Superman is a human-like alien and his powers are because of the physical and chemical differences between our Solar System and the Kryptonian solar system. The powers are innate within all Kryptonians when they visit Earth. Therefore, he is of "natural" origin. Ryūlóng 18:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you, only offering a few discussion points. I should've been clearer that I was concluding that Science just didn't fit. --ophidius 21:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copying from the official site VS original text

What's the point in copying directly from the official website? If people want to see that they can go to the website themselves... copying what is there adds nothing to the article. --Zikar 14:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

There are also copyright issues with using large sections of text taken directly from a corporate website. WP does not own that text, and does not have the right to place that text under the GFDL, under which all WP submissions are supposed to be placed. So IMHO the text from the CoH site needs to remain off of WP. - TexasAndroid 15:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

-shrugs- Fine, I think it looks better with the official info on there with the citation next to it and the examples underneath though. Right now it looks clumped and confused. - Dany, 15:40, 10 February 2006

[edit] Controller Examples

I'm concerned that Jean Gray and the Green Lanterns are poor examples for Controllers, due to the exceptionally varied nature of both these example's powers. Jean Gray often seems to reflect more of a Defender roll with her telekinetic force fields and psychic attacks, to say nothing of the Phoenix Force at her disposal. Meanwhile, your typical Green Lantern will often ride into battle with ring blazing firing off gouts of energy. While they do tend to have a large number of 'pets' at their disposal, more on par with a Mastermind's person army in my opinion, Control doesn't really seem to be their 'thing'.

A sufficently willful Green Lantern can pretty much do anything, and the Phoenix isn't short behind on raw power. Confining them to a single archetype seems fairly limiting.

I'd suggest Professor Xavier for the Marvel example, and somebody like the Pied Piper for the DC side (I've edited those in before once, but the examples seem to have vanished). Unlike Jean, one of Xavier's most often used tactics is Mind Control of the highest order. Meanwhile, the Pied Piper would be the prime example of a Sound based Controller, were there such a thing. While the former is extremely powerful and the latter is extremely obscure, both fit perfectly into the definition of a Controller. Their powers revolve around removing an enemy from a fight by affecting their behavior, either by directly messing with their minds in Xavier's case, or by hypnotizing them in Piper's case.

Jean Grey is actually a good example of a controller (since they tent to get defender primaries as their secondaries) she also controls minds etc... I must admit I have a limited knowledge of DC but whenever I've seen Green Lantern he's used his ring to pick things up, subdue people and genrally do control like things. Also remember that not all heroes in Marvel and DC will fit perfectly into CoH's AT catagories... --Zikar 13:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Green Lanterns do 'grab' people often, but that's about the extent of their Control. I've never seen one put anyone to sleep, or instil fear in them, or any of that. Meanwhile, I have seen plenty of Blasters break out Holds, Immobilizes, and Disorients. These seem to be the closest analogues to every GL 'control' I've seen in the comics, and also accurately portrays them as having the strongest weapon in the universe. Meanwhile, while yes, not all heroes in the comics fit perfectly into CoH's ATs, Professor X and Piper seem to do so a whole lot easier than GL and Jean. I don't think there's any doubt that when you think 'Charles Xavier', you think 'Mind Control'. Having read a great deal of Flash's comics, where Piper is a reoccuring character, he also fits exceptionally well into the roll.

[edit] City of Villains

I think that we should include the City of Villains Origins/Archetypes/Examples into this article as well. The information removed from the main City of Heroes article became this page, so why not add the information that is currently in the City of Villains article onto this page? Ryulong 19:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I would not object to that. One point is that the two sections are in totally different formats. I personally prefer the format here. More general data, less nitty-gritty details. The details like the lists of specific power sets were specifically removed from the list when it was originally part of the main CoH page as being at too much of a detail level for an encyclopedia entry. WP is not Gamefaqs. - TexasAndroid 20:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I realize that. I am suggesting that we remove the information from the CoV article, and reformat it so it fits within this article, as well. The extraneous information in the CoV article can be cut out of the move to this one. This way, a centralized article on the Archetypes within City of Heroes and City of Villains will be available. For all we know, City of Heroes and City of Villains will have interchangeable Archetypes when the ability to switch sides occurs. Ryulong 21:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok. The CoV ATs have been moved in and sorted into place. Next up is to decide which format to keep. The current CoH AT formatting, the current CoV AT formatting, or a combination of both. Personally I prefer the CoH formatting. There's another article, City of Heroes-Villains Powers, that gives detailed lists of power sets and powers. I don't really see the need for repeating the power set info here. The old CoH format seems cleaner and clearer to me in general. - TexasAndroid 14:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep. That changes the color. Backgrounds could be used just for the AT name, or for the entire sections... - TexasAndroid 20:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that that will be good, until some Archetypes are shared between the games (not side switching, but if they can both start off with the same things). Ryulong 20:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I like how that turned out. Enough for today. If you want to do more format conversions, Ryulong, feel free. - TexasAndroid 21:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Ryulong 21:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think in expanding on this, the articles should be called "City of Heroes/Villains characters." This article does cover both games after all. --Airborne502 06:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, City of Villains is essentially an expansion (although one that can be played by itself) of City of Heroes. Also, slashes are hard to do in WP titles to my knowledge. --Ryulong 06:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is it okay for comparisons of DC/Marvel to Hero Types?

I mean, Marvel sued City of Heroes for copyright infringment, so I'm not sure if the camparison thing is okay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The velociraptor (talk • contribs) .

That is a pretty silly question. Comparing is fine. It's not like we're saying "ZOMG GO MAKE SPIDERMAN". We're merely using him as an external example of the archetype/origin. Ryūlóng 05:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's okay... --Zikar 18:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Round button images

The images, their copyrighted and are just for decoration. The images aren't not discussed, you mearly have to infer that they're associated with where they're listed with. What's important is to read the fair use template for these images, which reads:

• 'for identification and critical commentary on
  • the computer or video game in question or
  • the copyrighted character(s) or item(s) depicted on the screenshot in question

We don't make critcial commentary on the button icons or on the video game in question by using these, in fact, they're just used for aesthetics in the article. (To make things look nicer) I suggest their removal from the article. ---Kevin_b_er 03:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove them. They provide the first part of the copyright thing, that is "identification". There's no reason to remove them just because they make the page look nicer. --Zikar 14:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Its two-pronged. Both identification and critical commentary. A prime example of a bad case of fair use is to use a copyrighted image of someone just so you can see what they look like. Kevin_b_er 22:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Um... why else you would you use an image of someone if not to see what they look like? At any rate, the images are a good example of what prepresents the origins and ATs, als the buttons are found in a free fansite pack on the CoH/CoV websites, thus copyright should not be an issue. --Zikar 23:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should we create an article for each archetype and orgin?

I was wondering if we should. --Kingdom hearts llll 13:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Not that necessary. What is here and what is at List of powers in City of Heroes and City of Villains is sufficient.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One healing set...

I'd like to take issue with the claim under Defenders that there is one set dedicated to healing. First of all, several sets have heals, many of them are very useful. Second of all, the set they're referring to (Empathy) has more buff powers than heals. Although it is the set MOST dedicated to healing, I wouldn't say it's entirely so. --Patteroast 08:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Empathy is primarily healing, and Defenders are often met with "ru h34lr?" (I like to disappoint people with my Archer :) ), but the healing aspect really needs to be written (or rewritten) in some way to reflect what you said. The wording you used, I felt was a bit awkward.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Screenshot

Can someone take a screenshot of what the character creator looks like? I think it would give the people a good idea of what the creator is like. --Rabin 16:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a few... I'll look into what could be used.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)